Marty's Basement Brewery

[Rivenin]

amazing!

 

[Thursday]

Congrats on your new home and new home brewery. I'm guessing that you are in one of the burbs, based on the [newer] foundation walls and the ceiling height.

I would second Kal's advice on a larger exhaust fan. Having substantial experience with CO poisoning and the ease at which it can kill you and everyone in the house, I would highly recommend that you get a CO meter for your brewing area (but not too close to your kettles) as well as one for every floor of your house.

I don't want to be be the guy raining on your parade, but carbon monoxide is tasteless and odorless and extremely deadly. There is no warning until you start feeling the symptoms or displaying signs. In very severe cases, the best treatment for CO poisoning is in a hyperbaric chamber, which most hospitals have discontinued due to infrequent use and expensive upkeep.

Also, when you have your burners on, you vent fan should also be running [obviously]. If you forget to turn your vent fan on while you are brewing, the amount of CO that will fill your basement will rise rapidly. Refer to Brewing TV Episode 40 - Bad Ass Brewery for the testimonial of how Bryan Adams filled his basement with CO.


Anyways, congrats on all of the progress that you've made and good luck with the upcoming brew days. I cant wait to get out of my condo and into a house with a basement, hopefully as nice as yours.

 

[mprossman]

Thanks! I'm going to give this a shot and see how it goes. I picked up a CO2 meter a while back. Have not tried it out yet, but here is the one I got. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PDGFR8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Thursday]

Thanks! I'm going to give this a shot and see how it goes. I picked up a CO2 meter a while back. Have not tried it out yet, but here is the one I got. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PDGFR8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Mprossman, please don't think that I'm trying to be a jerk. There is a difference between CO and CO2.

CO2 is carbon dioxide and naturally forming in the atmosphere. It is a large part of our own exhalation. It doesn't hurt you to breathe it in or out (as long as you have enough oxygen in the environment that you are breathing in).

CO is carbon monoxide, a byproduct of incomplete combustion. Typical human levels are usually near zero ppm unless you are a smoker, which can cause then to rise up to an average of 10 ppm.

If you use a burner powered by ng or lp or anything, you will be pumping huge amounts of carbon monoxide into the room. If you don't have adequate ventilation, more CO will be produced that ejected by the vent fan. This can cause a dangerous environment of toxic gases, which can cause a whole range of symptoms starting with nausea, headache, vomiting, blurred vision, confusion and can lead to death.

The meter that you linked to doesn't monitor carbon monoxide, it monitors carbon dioxide. You really need to be certain that you have the right meter prior to any usage of burners.

Good luck.

 

[mprossman]

Ha, you are correct. I'm a *******. I got this to measure my co2 in my tap system. I already have 5 CO meters in the house. I do need another for the brew room though. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[f_stepanski]

Thanks for the update/progress picks. Great setup so far...

 

[mprossman]

SLOW progress, but I got the sink all set up and most of the drywall mudding done. Here is a picture of the sink in place. I'm really happy with how it looks.

Now that I have it all set up and been using it to clean up stuff, don't get the cheap version of a sprayer. I posted earlier that it seemed pretty solid, but we had some issues installing it. we had to put a ton of tape on a couple of the joints to keep it from leaking. It just doesn't fit together like it should. My buddy got a similar sprayer and his had a pin leak in it and had to deal with sending it back for a replacement. Spend the extra $100 and get a high quality sprayer. If you are trying to save some cash (which I was), the cheaper ones are definitely functional, just not the greatest quality.

My kick a$$ wife got me a 20 gallon Blichmann pot as a gift. Solid quality boys and girls. As you will see from the picture below, I'm working on getting the system all set up. I need to put another hole in the Blichmann for a whirlpool arm, but honestly I'm terrified to start drilling, so I'm keeping if for last. Really not one of those things I want to mess up. I also need to install a thermometer in the HLT (far right). I know I'm missing a few hoses (ran out) and the hose going from the HLT to the boil kettle (far left) is not right (just test for leaks). Besides beer (sigh), is there anything else you can see that I'm missing? Any and all feedback is welcome.


Cheers,
Marty

 

[RocketBrewer]

The sink looks amazing! I wish I had room for something like that.

 

[kal]

The sink looks amazing! I wish I had room for something like that.

+1

People always ask me what the most important piece is in my brewery or what equipment I like the best / can't live without, and I always point to the sink (which usually surprises them). It's key. Everything revolves around the sink.

Kal

 

[mprossman]

Thanks guys. I'm not a huge fan of tiling, but I'm really glad I did it. I hear you on the sink. I fought cleaning a keggle in my kitchen sink for a couple years. Not fun. I actually got the sink before the brew stand, so I had my priorities straight.

I really wanted a 3 compartment sink, but it just wouldn't fit in the space I had. Cleaning, Rinsing, Sanitizing would have been nice. No complaints though. The great thing about the sink is that the keggles will fit down in so you can clean it easily. Bad part is that the Blichmann kettle won't fit down into it. Keep that in mind if you are ever getting one.

 

[mprossman]

One additional question. Do you normally put tape on your fittings on the inside of your kettles? I did, but just wondering if that could be a problem later.

 

[kevreh]

Thats a nice brewery you have there. I know you don't like tiling, BUT, what about the floor? The concrete looks ready for a nice tile to be laid. Don't overlook it since concrete can absorb liquids, and I'm sure spilled wort won't be something you want soaked into your floor. IF your planning on doing a few brews before you get around to tiling it, you could always roll on a liquid membrane. Sold at HD and easy to apply.

 

[mprossman]

Thanks. I completely agree, but no tiling the floor for me. It would look nice, but honestly I have blown past my budget by a LOT and I value my marriage. Had a Halloween party this weekend and was showing it off to a group of friends. As they kindly put it..."Dude, you have gone way past an obsession". Not sure how I should feel about that, but it's pretty funny. Little did they know, they had just named my first beer or maybe even my brewery "Way Past An Obsession". I do plan on putting an epoxy floor down, but it may wait until the Spring. Holiday parties coming up and need to get the beer rocking. :rockin:

 

[mprossman]

Haven't posted in a while. I've made some good progress over the past month. Made my first couple batches on the new system. After a comedy of errors on the first batch, things got a bit easier the second go around. Still need to get the fermentation fridge set up, floor epoxy put down and stereo system installed, but I'm pretty happy with everything so far. Here are some updated pictures.View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315327.505386.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315356.094287.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315382.851314.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315421.704539.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315442.516746.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315458.907486.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315477.661309.jpg

 

[kal]

What's the max BTU of your burners that you have running at once? (It's probably whatever the boil kettle burner is).

Reason I ask is that you should be aware that you're probably undersized with your ventilation requirements for a gas based setup.

You mention using a Vortex VTX660 fan which is a 449 CFM (max when not using any ducts - it could be significantly less with all the elbows/turns).

John Blichmann wrote an article for the November 2012 issue of BYO magazine that mentioned that the CFM required for an indoor gas setup for safe ventilation is done by dividing the burner’s BTU/hour rating by 30.

So a typical 80,000 BTU burner would require 2666CFM to properly vent.

(About 8.5 times higher than an equivalent electric setup since gas produces much more heat / is less efficient and has poisonous gases that must be removed).

This would also require an equally large make up air system.

EDIT: Oops - seemed I (and some others) already mentioned this ~6 months ago when it was brought up... Still, I would very much caution against using something like this indoors. Worth noting for those new to brewing.

Kal

 

[mprossman]

Thanks Kal...

I obviously care about safety and don't really want to kill myself, but I guess I don't understand the real danger. I have both a carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide detector in the room. I have brewed two batches and the carbon monoxide detector has never gone off and the carbon dioxide detector shows normal levels.

Is there something else I'm not thinking of that could cause me problems?

Thanks,
Marty

 

[kal]

I'd be surprised if you have a carbon dioxide (CO2) detector as that's what we breath out (and plants like). It's also what yeast expels when fermenting and what we carbonate our beer with. I don't know why these sorts of detectors would even be available for sale in the first place or why you would want to have one?

Carbon Monoxide (CO) is the one you care about: It's the poisonous gas that is expelled when natural gas and propane is burnt. It's a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas that is toxic to humans above certain levels.

If you have the CO detector in the same spots where you are working in and around the kettles and it's not going off then you're probably ok and the poisonous CO is being expelled correctly, assuming it's working correctly. There may be higher concentrations that would would normally be permitted near/in/around the kettles so you may want to try moving the detector around a bit to where you normally work. For example, it's not uncommon to have our head/face pretty close to the boil kettle when working.

Kal

 

[Hello]

What an amazing build! I love that tile wall a lot. I cannot even imagine what that all ran you.

With respects to ventilation, I was advised to use a fan that was 400 CFM or higher even though my elements are only 5500w. Anything over 500 is likely overkill for an electric brewery. I asked the question based on Kal's information on his website. I would definitely ask again and explain why you're asking. Did you tell the guy that you'll be running more than one burner at a time most likely and that it may be for longer than an hour at a time?

 

[kal]

With respects to ventilation, I was advised to use a fan that was 400 CFM or higher even though my elements are only 5500w. Anything over 500 is likely overkill for an electric brewery.

Correct- That's for an electric based brewery. There are no poisonous gases with with an electric brewery and there is considerably less heat too (none is wasted since the element is in the wort/water). Marty has gas burners that have to produce a lot more heat (and poisonous gases as a byproduct) so the venting requirements are much higher than electric. Definitely ask again.

Kal

 

[kal]

Based on some quick searches, John Blichmann's requirements of dividing the BTU's by 30 seem about twice as high as what the interwebs recommends which is (generally speaking):

For gas cooking surfaces or range, a minimum ventilation level of 100 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) per 10,000 BTU is recommended. However, the hood must have a minimum of 500 CFM of ventilation power.

Duct work and elbows and other things increase the CFM requirements because they add restriction which (depending on the fan model) can severely lower the CFM. For example, every 90 degree below on a 6" duct can add the equivalent of ~25 feet. A good rule of thumb is to add 10 CFM for every foot of ductwork and 25 CFM for any elbows.

So an example: Say you have a 80,000 BTU burner (fairly typical) with 20 feet of run and 3 elbows. That would require 800 + 20 + (3x25) = 895 CFM.

Equally important in many houses is the make up air. Most modern houses are so well sealed that the make up air has nowhere to come from (unless you open a window).

More food for thought.

Kal

 

[BrewerinBR]

There is one thing I have not seen and that is fresh air in. I use propane indoors and have since 2011 and have never set off the CO Monitor (I test it and check it). (I also have and explosive gas monitor placed mid wall level for propane -- NG placement is higher up as it is lighter than air). CO Placement is irrelevant as its molecular weight and structure allows it to mix easily with normal atmosphere that is does not mass high or low.

I have a 4 inch 80 CFM fresh air in (north side of house)and 6 inch 400 CFM out (west side of house). Total room space is 777 or so cubic feet and the air in the brew room exchanges completely once every 3 to 4 minutes.

You should vent directly out and have fresh air in from another direction or far enough away so you get fresh air. I was more concerned about changing the air in the brew area. However you have high pressure jet type burners and they are about the most inefficient burners so you need an explosive gas monitor in that room. My burners are low pressure and are slow and low BTU. But I never like to hurry my brew days.

I love your brewery... it is wonderful. Keep it safe and get CO and Explosive gas monitor: http://www.amazon.com/First-Alert-GCO1CN-Combination-Explosive/dp/B000H2651Y
Tune your burners and keep them clean to provide the safest and most efficient operation.

Congrats... excellent job!

 

[FoCobrewguy]

Not to change the subject as safety is always a concern. But on another note what do you think of the 2 compartment sink? Enough for all your needs or wish you had the 3rd? I am going back and forth so reason for or against is much appreciated.

 

[trimixdiver1]

I'd be surprised if you have a carbon dioxide (CO2) detector as that's what we breath out (and plants like). It's also what yeast expels when fermenting and what we carbonate our beer with. I don't know why these sorts of detectors would even be available for sale in the first place or why you would want to have one?

Carbon Monoxide (CO) is the one you care about: It's the poisonous gas that is expelled when natural gas and propane is burnt. It's a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas that is toxic to humans above certain levels.

If you have the CO detector in the same spots where you are working in and around the kettles and it's not going off then you're probably ok and the poisonous CO is being expelled correctly, assuming it's working correctly. There may be higher concentrations that would would normally be permitted near/in/around the kettles so you may want to try moving the detector around a bit to where you normally work. For example, it's not uncommon to have our head/face pretty close to the boil kettle when working.

Kal

I have CO2 and CO and explosive gas sensors in my garage, utility room and shed....... But I am an automation freak.

 

[kal]

To the OP and trimixdiver1: Not to derail this thread any further, but why do people want a CO2 detector? Why do you use one? (Google isn't helping - it thinks I want to know why someone would use a CO detector).

Kal

 

[trimixdiver1]

To the OP and trimixdiver1: Not to derail this thread any further, but why do people want a CO2 detector? Why do you use one? (Google isn't helping - it thinks I want to know why someone would use a CO detector).

Kal

Because even though you may be burning a good flame (little or no CO) you will always produce a lot of CO2.

My main reason is the duct sensor I have in my furnace, fresh air makeup in the winter. I also have a kerosene heater I use, when I get above 2000ppm, my PLC will alarm and open a vent to the outside and turn on my furnace fan. I use an HRV.

Not needed, but as I've said I'm a geek.

 

[Weezy]

You could rent a gas multi meter from a test equipment supply shop for cheap and use it to sample air in the brewing area during brewing for co2, o2, and combustible gases. it'll give you accurate, real time values.

 

[watermelon83]

It looks so sweet! I'm jealous, like so many others. I have the room in the basement, but I had to use my available funds to build the system. I guess this year I'll just have to pay my dues in the (cold as a well diggers arse) garage for awhile.

If you've already used the system, and lived I wouldn't be to concerned over the CO. Like you said you have a dectector. I would be cautious if you make any significant changes to your brew day though. Just because you didn't saturate the enviroment with your standard brew day doesn't mean it's totally safe going forward. Extended mash/boil, back to back batches may be more than the ventalation can compensate for. You've managed to live this long, I'm sure you already thought of that!

 

[watermelon83]

Based on some quick searches, John Blichmann's requirements of dividing the BTU's by 30 seem about twice as high as what the interwebs recommends which is (generally speaking):

For gas cooking surfaces or range, a minimum ventilation level of 100 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) per 10,000 BTU is recommended. However, the hood must have a minimum of 500 CFM of ventilation power.

Duct work and elbows and other things increase the CFM requirements because they add restriction which (depending on the fan model) can severely lower the CFM. For example, every 90 degree below on a 6" duct can add the equivalent of ~25 feet. A good rule of thumb is to add 10 CFM for every foot of ductwork and 25 CFM for any elbows.

So an example: Say you have a 80,000 BTU burner (fairly typical) with 20 feet of run and 3 elbows. That would require 800 + 20 + (3x25) = 895 CFM.

Equally important in many houses is the make up air. Most modern houses are so well sealed that the make up air has nowhere to come from (unless you open a window).

More food for thought.

Kal

This got me thinking about home ranges. Which got me thinking about folks that install the six burner dual oven ranges in their home. Assuming that all six burners, and both ovens are running (not including their pilots) these suckers can kick out ~94000 BTU's. Given that most kitchens have zero external ventilation these days, their must be more to what actaully creates the hazard. I would assume this would include dispersion volume and fresh air intake, no?

Also, depending on how "tight" Marty's house is for every CF of dirty air he pushs out of the basement a fresh CF has to come from somewhere. I would assume a lower volume is quite capable of squeezing through standard home gaps (doors, windows, soffit vents) but at a larger CFM wouldn't, one run the risk of pulling air back through other vents (furnace, hot water heater) unless additional intake air was made available to the home? This seems truely dangerous to me as the buildup from all equipment would be huge.

Anyhow probably a topic for a thread of it's own, just curious.

 

[kal]

This got me thinking about home ranges.

The numbers I posted and you quoted were actually taken from various sites after I Googled "how many vent hood CFM per BTU?" - they're all about kitchen stove venting. Most say 100 CFM per 10,000 BTU plus extra to make up for the ductwork/elbows.

Given that most kitchens have zero external ventilation these days...

Really? I would say the opposite. It's the 50+ year old houses I see that have hoods with charcoal filters that vent directly into the house - they're electric too since back in the 40's and 50's everyone had electric stoves.

Also, depending on how "tight" Marty's house is for every CF of dirty air he pushs out of the basement a fresh CF has to come from somewhere. I would assume a lower volume is quite capable of squeezing through standard home gaps (doors, windows, soffit vents) but at a larger CFM wouldn't, one run the risk of pulling air back through other vents (furnace, hot water heater) unless additional intake air was made available to the home?

Correct. Newer homes are much tighter and the chance of pulling air from places like a fireplace is a concern (you could suck embers right into the house when your turn on your stove fan). This is why building code changes over time as house construction changes. The two go hand in hand.

My current home is new and build to our region's 2010 code standards. While it varies by region, part of this standard is that a whole house make-up air system must be installed if the range hood is more than about 300 CFM. So we have a large (12") duct in the basement feeding into our HVAC cold air return that's connected to the outside, with a damper valve that opens/closes whenever the we use the range hood. There's a 3000W electric heater in line too to avoid freezing/condensation in the winter. All of this extra expense is required because homes are built so super tight these days to save money. Ironic that the make-up air system wasn't cheap - it cost more than your average range!

HRVs and ERVs (air exchangers) are also more popular given how tight houses are today. The air in the house gets stale from cooking, breathing, off-gassing of man made materials, etc.

Definitely a conversion for a separate topic like you mentioned!

Kal

 

[watermelon83]

Really? I would say the opposite. It's the 50+ year old houses I see that have hoods with charcoal filters that vent directly into the house - they're electric too since back in the 40's and 50's everyone had electric stoves.


Correct. Newer homes are much tighter and the chance of pulling air from places like a fireplace is a concern (you could suck embers right into the house when your turn on your stove fan). This is why building code changes over time as house construction changes. The two go hand in hand.

My current home is new and build to our region's 2010 code standards. While it varies by region, part of this standard is that a whole house make-up air system must be installed if the range hood is more than about 300 CFM. So we have a large (12") duct in the basement feeding into our HVAC cold air return that's connected to the outside, with a damper valve that opens/closes whenever the we use the range hood. There's a 3000W electric heater in line too to avoid freezing/condensation in the winter. All of this extra expense is required because homes are built so super tight these days to save money. Ironic that the make-up air system wasn't cheap - it cost more than your average range!

HRVs and ERVs (air exchangers) are also more popular given how tight houses are today. The air in the house gets stale from cooking, breathing, off-gassing of man made materials, etc.

Definitely a conversion for a separate topic like you mentioned!

Kal

Charcoal filter hoods that dump right back into the kitchen are for smoke and odors, not CO right? I guess I don't see how that battles the CO produced by these monstruos ranges in todays kitchens.

If you had to add an external intake to make up for the loss due to your ventilation shouldn't that be part of the recommendation? I guess my concern is folks that heed the HMF'ing fan advice trying to figure out why their home is covered in flue soot from various sources. Anyhow, none of my business just thought it was worth pointing out.