Marty's Basement Brewery

[mprossman]

One additional question. Do you normally put tape on your fittings on the inside of your kettles? I did, but just wondering if that could be a problem later.

 

[kevreh]

Thats a nice brewery you have there. I know you don't like tiling, BUT, what about the floor? The concrete looks ready for a nice tile to be laid. Don't overlook it since concrete can absorb liquids, and I'm sure spilled wort won't be something you want soaked into your floor. IF your planning on doing a few brews before you get around to tiling it, you could always roll on a liquid membrane. Sold at HD and easy to apply.

 

[mprossman]

Thanks. I completely agree, but no tiling the floor for me. It would look nice, but honestly I have blown past my budget by a LOT and I value my marriage. Had a Halloween party this weekend and was showing it off to a group of friends. As they kindly put it..."Dude, you have gone way past an obsession". Not sure how I should feel about that, but it's pretty funny. Little did they know, they had just named my first beer or maybe even my brewery "Way Past An Obsession". I do plan on putting an epoxy floor down, but it may wait until the Spring. Holiday parties coming up and need to get the beer rocking. :rockin:

 

[mprossman]

Haven't posted in a while. I've made some good progress over the past month. Made my first couple batches on the new system. After a comedy of errors on the first batch, things got a bit easier the second go around. Still need to get the fermentation fridge set up, floor epoxy put down and stereo system installed, but I'm pretty happy with everything so far. Here are some updated pictures.View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315327.505386.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315356.094287.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315382.851314.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315421.704539.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315442.516746.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315458.907486.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1420315477.661309.jpg

 

[kal]

What's the max BTU of your burners that you have running at once? (It's probably whatever the boil kettle burner is).

Reason I ask is that you should be aware that you're probably undersized with your ventilation requirements for a gas based setup.

You mention using a Vortex VTX660 fan which is a 449 CFM (max when not using any ducts - it could be significantly less with all the elbows/turns).

John Blichmann wrote an article for the November 2012 issue of BYO magazine that mentioned that the CFM required for an indoor gas setup for safe ventilation is done by dividing the burner’s BTU/hour rating by 30.

So a typical 80,000 BTU burner would require 2666CFM to properly vent.

(About 8.5 times higher than an equivalent electric setup since gas produces much more heat / is less efficient and has poisonous gases that must be removed).

This would also require an equally large make up air system.

EDIT: Oops - seemed I (and some others) already mentioned this ~6 months ago when it was brought up... Still, I would very much caution against using something like this indoors. Worth noting for those new to brewing.

Kal

 

[mprossman]

Thanks Kal...

I obviously care about safety and don't really want to kill myself, but I guess I don't understand the real danger. I have both a carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide detector in the room. I have brewed two batches and the carbon monoxide detector has never gone off and the carbon dioxide detector shows normal levels.

Is there something else I'm not thinking of that could cause me problems?

Thanks,
Marty

 

[kal]

I'd be surprised if you have a carbon dioxide (CO2) detector as that's what we breath out (and plants like). It's also what yeast expels when fermenting and what we carbonate our beer with. I don't know why these sorts of detectors would even be available for sale in the first place or why you would want to have one?

Carbon Monoxide (CO) is the one you care about: It's the poisonous gas that is expelled when natural gas and propane is burnt. It's a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas that is toxic to humans above certain levels.

If you have the CO detector in the same spots where you are working in and around the kettles and it's not going off then you're probably ok and the poisonous CO is being expelled correctly, assuming it's working correctly. There may be higher concentrations that would would normally be permitted near/in/around the kettles so you may want to try moving the detector around a bit to where you normally work. For example, it's not uncommon to have our head/face pretty close to the boil kettle when working.

Kal

 

[Hello]

What an amazing build! I love that tile wall a lot. I cannot even imagine what that all ran you.

With respects to ventilation, I was advised to use a fan that was 400 CFM or higher even though my elements are only 5500w. Anything over 500 is likely overkill for an electric brewery. I asked the question based on Kal's information on his website. I would definitely ask again and explain why you're asking. Did you tell the guy that you'll be running more than one burner at a time most likely and that it may be for longer than an hour at a time?

 

[kal]

With respects to ventilation, I was advised to use a fan that was 400 CFM or higher even though my elements are only 5500w. Anything over 500 is likely overkill for an electric brewery.

Correct- That's for an electric based brewery. There are no poisonous gases with with an electric brewery and there is considerably less heat too (none is wasted since the element is in the wort/water). Marty has gas burners that have to produce a lot more heat (and poisonous gases as a byproduct) so the venting requirements are much higher than electric. Definitely ask again.

Kal

 

[kal]

Based on some quick searches, John Blichmann's requirements of dividing the BTU's by 30 seem about twice as high as what the interwebs recommends which is (generally speaking):

For gas cooking surfaces or range, a minimum ventilation level of 100 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) per 10,000 BTU is recommended. However, the hood must have a minimum of 500 CFM of ventilation power.

Duct work and elbows and other things increase the CFM requirements because they add restriction which (depending on the fan model) can severely lower the CFM. For example, every 90 degree below on a 6" duct can add the equivalent of ~25 feet. A good rule of thumb is to add 10 CFM for every foot of ductwork and 25 CFM for any elbows.

So an example: Say you have a 80,000 BTU burner (fairly typical) with 20 feet of run and 3 elbows. That would require 800 + 20 + (3x25) = 895 CFM.

Equally important in many houses is the make up air. Most modern houses are so well sealed that the make up air has nowhere to come from (unless you open a window).

More food for thought.

Kal

 

[BrewerinBR]

There is one thing I have not seen and that is fresh air in. I use propane indoors and have since 2011 and have never set off the CO Monitor (I test it and check it). (I also have and explosive gas monitor placed mid wall level for propane -- NG placement is higher up as it is lighter than air). CO Placement is irrelevant as its molecular weight and structure allows it to mix easily with normal atmosphere that is does not mass high or low.

I have a 4 inch 80 CFM fresh air in (north side of house)and 6 inch 400 CFM out (west side of house). Total room space is 777 or so cubic feet and the air in the brew room exchanges completely once every 3 to 4 minutes.

You should vent directly out and have fresh air in from another direction or far enough away so you get fresh air. I was more concerned about changing the air in the brew area. However you have high pressure jet type burners and they are about the most inefficient burners so you need an explosive gas monitor in that room. My burners are low pressure and are slow and low BTU. But I never like to hurry my brew days.

I love your brewery... it is wonderful. Keep it safe and get CO and Explosive gas monitor: http://www.amazon.com/First-Alert-GCO1CN-Combination-Explosive/dp/B000H2651Y
Tune your burners and keep them clean to provide the safest and most efficient operation.

Congrats... excellent job!

 

[FoCobrewguy]

Not to change the subject as safety is always a concern. But on another note what do you think of the 2 compartment sink? Enough for all your needs or wish you had the 3rd? I am going back and forth so reason for or against is much appreciated.

 

[trimixdiver1]

I'd be surprised if you have a carbon dioxide (CO2) detector as that's what we breath out (and plants like). It's also what yeast expels when fermenting and what we carbonate our beer with. I don't know why these sorts of detectors would even be available for sale in the first place or why you would want to have one?

Carbon Monoxide (CO) is the one you care about: It's the poisonous gas that is expelled when natural gas and propane is burnt. It's a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas that is toxic to humans above certain levels.

If you have the CO detector in the same spots where you are working in and around the kettles and it's not going off then you're probably ok and the poisonous CO is being expelled correctly, assuming it's working correctly. There may be higher concentrations that would would normally be permitted near/in/around the kettles so you may want to try moving the detector around a bit to where you normally work. For example, it's not uncommon to have our head/face pretty close to the boil kettle when working.

Kal

I have CO2 and CO and explosive gas sensors in my garage, utility room and shed....... But I am an automation freak.

 

[kal]

To the OP and trimixdiver1: Not to derail this thread any further, but why do people want a CO2 detector? Why do you use one? (Google isn't helping - it thinks I want to know why someone would use a CO detector).

Kal

 

[trimixdiver1]

To the OP and trimixdiver1: Not to derail this thread any further, but why do people want a CO2 detector? Why do you use one? (Google isn't helping - it thinks I want to know why someone would use a CO detector).

Kal

Because even though you may be burning a good flame (little or no CO) you will always produce a lot of CO2.

My main reason is the duct sensor I have in my furnace, fresh air makeup in the winter. I also have a kerosene heater I use, when I get above 2000ppm, my PLC will alarm and open a vent to the outside and turn on my furnace fan. I use an HRV.

Not needed, but as I've said I'm a geek.

 

[Weezy]

You could rent a gas multi meter from a test equipment supply shop for cheap and use it to sample air in the brewing area during brewing for co2, o2, and combustible gases. it'll give you accurate, real time values.

 

[watermelon83]

It looks so sweet! I'm jealous, like so many others. I have the room in the basement, but I had to use my available funds to build the system. I guess this year I'll just have to pay my dues in the (cold as a well diggers arse) garage for awhile.

If you've already used the system, and lived I wouldn't be to concerned over the CO. Like you said you have a dectector. I would be cautious if you make any significant changes to your brew day though. Just because you didn't saturate the enviroment with your standard brew day doesn't mean it's totally safe going forward. Extended mash/boil, back to back batches may be more than the ventalation can compensate for. You've managed to live this long, I'm sure you already thought of that!

 

[watermelon83]

Based on some quick searches, John Blichmann's requirements of dividing the BTU's by 30 seem about twice as high as what the interwebs recommends which is (generally speaking):

For gas cooking surfaces or range, a minimum ventilation level of 100 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) per 10,000 BTU is recommended. However, the hood must have a minimum of 500 CFM of ventilation power.

Duct work and elbows and other things increase the CFM requirements because they add restriction which (depending on the fan model) can severely lower the CFM. For example, every 90 degree below on a 6" duct can add the equivalent of ~25 feet. A good rule of thumb is to add 10 CFM for every foot of ductwork and 25 CFM for any elbows.

So an example: Say you have a 80,000 BTU burner (fairly typical) with 20 feet of run and 3 elbows. That would require 800 + 20 + (3x25) = 895 CFM.

Equally important in many houses is the make up air. Most modern houses are so well sealed that the make up air has nowhere to come from (unless you open a window).

More food for thought.

Kal

This got me thinking about home ranges. Which got me thinking about folks that install the six burner dual oven ranges in their home. Assuming that all six burners, and both ovens are running (not including their pilots) these suckers can kick out ~94000 BTU's. Given that most kitchens have zero external ventilation these days, their must be more to what actaully creates the hazard. I would assume this would include dispersion volume and fresh air intake, no?

Also, depending on how "tight" Marty's house is for every CF of dirty air he pushs out of the basement a fresh CF has to come from somewhere. I would assume a lower volume is quite capable of squeezing through standard home gaps (doors, windows, soffit vents) but at a larger CFM wouldn't, one run the risk of pulling air back through other vents (furnace, hot water heater) unless additional intake air was made available to the home? This seems truely dangerous to me as the buildup from all equipment would be huge.

Anyhow probably a topic for a thread of it's own, just curious.

 

[kal]

This got me thinking about home ranges.

The numbers I posted and you quoted were actually taken from various sites after I Googled "how many vent hood CFM per BTU?" - they're all about kitchen stove venting. Most say 100 CFM per 10,000 BTU plus extra to make up for the ductwork/elbows.

Given that most kitchens have zero external ventilation these days...

Really? I would say the opposite. It's the 50+ year old houses I see that have hoods with charcoal filters that vent directly into the house - they're electric too since back in the 40's and 50's everyone had electric stoves.

Also, depending on how "tight" Marty's house is for every CF of dirty air he pushs out of the basement a fresh CF has to come from somewhere. I would assume a lower volume is quite capable of squeezing through standard home gaps (doors, windows, soffit vents) but at a larger CFM wouldn't, one run the risk of pulling air back through other vents (furnace, hot water heater) unless additional intake air was made available to the home?

Correct. Newer homes are much tighter and the chance of pulling air from places like a fireplace is a concern (you could suck embers right into the house when your turn on your stove fan). This is why building code changes over time as house construction changes. The two go hand in hand.

My current home is new and build to our region's 2010 code standards. While it varies by region, part of this standard is that a whole house make-up air system must be installed if the range hood is more than about 300 CFM. So we have a large (12") duct in the basement feeding into our HVAC cold air return that's connected to the outside, with a damper valve that opens/closes whenever the we use the range hood. There's a 3000W electric heater in line too to avoid freezing/condensation in the winter. All of this extra expense is required because homes are built so super tight these days to save money. Ironic that the make-up air system wasn't cheap - it cost more than your average range!

HRVs and ERVs (air exchangers) are also more popular given how tight houses are today. The air in the house gets stale from cooking, breathing, off-gassing of man made materials, etc.

Definitely a conversion for a separate topic like you mentioned!

Kal

 

[watermelon83]

Really? I would say the opposite. It's the 50+ year old houses I see that have hoods with charcoal filters that vent directly into the house - they're electric too since back in the 40's and 50's everyone had electric stoves.


Correct. Newer homes are much tighter and the chance of pulling air from places like a fireplace is a concern (you could suck embers right into the house when your turn on your stove fan). This is why building code changes over time as house construction changes. The two go hand in hand.

My current home is new and build to our region's 2010 code standards. While it varies by region, part of this standard is that a whole house make-up air system must be installed if the range hood is more than about 300 CFM. So we have a large (12") duct in the basement feeding into our HVAC cold air return that's connected to the outside, with a damper valve that opens/closes whenever the we use the range hood. There's a 3000W electric heater in line too to avoid freezing/condensation in the winter. All of this extra expense is required because homes are built so super tight these days to save money. Ironic that the make-up air system wasn't cheap - it cost more than your average range!

HRVs and ERVs (air exchangers) are also more popular given how tight houses are today. The air in the house gets stale from cooking, breathing, off-gassing of man made materials, etc.

Definitely a conversion for a separate topic like you mentioned!

Kal

Charcoal filter hoods that dump right back into the kitchen are for smoke and odors, not CO right? I guess I don't see how that battles the CO produced by these monstruos ranges in todays kitchens.

If you had to add an external intake to make up for the loss due to your ventilation shouldn't that be part of the recommendation? I guess my concern is folks that heed the HMF'ing fan advice trying to figure out why their home is covered in flue soot from various sources. Anyhow, none of my business just thought it was worth pointing out.

 

[kal]

Charcoal filter hoods that dump right back into the kitchen are for smoke and odors, not CO right?

I would assume so. I think they were only viable back when nobody had gas ranges. My mother-in-law has one in her 50+ year old house (for example).

I guess I don't see how that battles the CO produced by these monstruos ranges in todays kitchens.

Nope. I don't see how you could use a non-evacuating hood with a gas range. They're probably not even even allowed to build houses in most areas with these non-evacuating hoods anymore as it limits what sort of range the homeowner can install.

If you had to add an external intake to make up for the loss due to your ventilation shouldn't that be part of the recommendation?

Most sites that explain what CFM you need are selling you a hood. They probably don't care. But you're right. As I mentioned above it also depends on the home, the code it was built to, and so forth. Always good that the homeowner do some research into what's safe/recommended themselves and not rely on the (sometimes incorrect) opinions of others of course. Trust but verify!

Kal

 

[mprossman]

Not to change the subject as safety is always a concern. But on another note what do you think of the 2 compartment sink? Enough for all your needs or wish you had the 3rd? I am going back and forth so reason for or against is much appreciated.

Sorry for not responding guys. Work has been crazy. I will try and read through everything tonight. I appreciate everyone's responses. I say this lovingly...you are all a bunch of nerds.

FoCobrewguy...I absolutely love the 2 compartment sink. I could never go back now. I would recommend 2 things. 1.) Get a sink with big enough dimensions to fit your pots. A keggle barely fits in mine and the Blichmann won't fit and its a bit tricky. 2.) Get a sink with the biggest sideboards you can get for your space. I wish mine had larger ones, but it works. I guess I could add a third that the sprayer is a must.

 

[mprossman]

I'd be surprised if you have a carbon dioxide (CO2) detector as that's what we breath out (and plants like). It's also what yeast expels when fermenting and what we carbonate our beer with. I don't know why these sorts of detectors would even be available for sale in the first place or why you would want to have one?

Carbon Monoxide (CO) is the one you care about: It's the poisonous gas that is expelled when natural gas and propane is burnt. It's a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas that is toxic to humans above certain levels.

If you have the CO detector in the same spots where you are working in and around the kettles and it's not going off then you're probably ok and the poisonous CO is being expelled correctly, assuming it's working correctly. There may be higher concentrations that would would normally be permitted near/in/around the kettles so you may want to try moving the detector around a bit to where you normally work. For example, it's not uncommon to have our head/face pretty close to the boil kettle when working.

Kal

Kal,

I actually have the CO2 detector because I also have my keg setup in the basement. It has a 20lb CO2 tank attached to it. If my setup has a leak and the entire CO2 tank leaks out in the basement it can also kill you. Also orderless and almost as dangerous.

In case you want to nerd out...http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/b...A/cfodocs/howell.Par.2800.File.dat/25apxC.pdf


Thanks,
Marty

 

[FoCobrewguy]

Thanks for the tips on the table much appreciated.

 

[brewman !]

Careful with the sizing of the fan and using natural gas. That's a 452 CFM (only) fan - enoug for electric but not really for natural gas / propane.

Due to the extra heat and poisonous gases that must be removed, the ventilation requirements are considerably higher with a gas brewery as compared to electric.

John Blichmann wrote an article for the November 2012 issue of BYO magazine that summarized ventilation requirements as follows:

Electric based brewery: Divide the element size (in watts) by 17.6 to obtain the required CFM (cubic feet per minute). (Example: I use a 5500W element in our boil kettle. 5500 / 17.6 = 312 CFM).

Gas based brewery: Divide the burner’s BTU/hour rating by 30. (Because of the inefficiencies, a 80,000 BTU burner produces approximately the same amount of heat in the kettle as a 5500W element. 80,000 / 30 = 2666 CFM. You would therefore require a fan that can move 2666 CFM in order to ventilate a gas setup properly if you are running a total of 80,000 BTU in burners at once.)

Kal

I highly suspect that you do not need 2666 CFM to properly ventilate 80,000 BTUs of burner power.

Example #1) My house is heated by a 100,000 BTU natural gas boiler. Natural gas and propane are different fuels, but they aren't that different. Natural gas (CH4) has more H and less C than propane, but that is where it ends.

The boiler in my house is direct vent. That means its combustion is entirely sealed from the air in the rest of the house. All the intake air and exhaust products are piped in and out through 4" PVC ducting. You can even use 3" PVC ducting if the runs are short enough, ie under about 30 feet.

Here is the thing about this boiler. The fan that pulls the air in and pushes the exhaust products out is a tiny 4" squirrel cage. That is all the air that is required to burn 100,000 BTU per hour cleanly. This boiler is certified at 92% efficient. It was tested for a proper air fuel mixture with a mixture analyzer when it was installed. With that air flow there was no CO in the exhaust products, ie its getting enough air.

Example #2) My house came with a big 5 burner natural gas cook top. I guesstimate the total heat output to be over 50,000 BTU. It had a hood and fan over it. The hood was NOT connected to the cooktop in any way, ie it didn't automatically run when you fired up the burner. The fan in it was a low performance 8 inch centrifugal on a variable speed circuit. Often the fan was not running at all when the cook top was being used, often for hours on end.

Example #3) My RV has a 4 burner propane oven/stove combo. Total heat output is probably 25,000 BTUs. Nothing vents to the outside of the trailer. There is a fume hood, but it only runs when the trailer is plugged into 120VAC. There is a CO detector on the wall adjacent to the oven. Trailers are much smaller inside than houses.

I fully agree that one need to have adequate ventilation when burning natgas and propane indoors. People are killed doing this every year. However, if one truly needed 2700 CFM for that 80,000 BTU burner, people would have been killed or as least displayed some form of poisoning in each of these situations.

The actual amount of ventilation needed is much lower than that.

I could calculate how much air it takes to burn propane at a given rate, but its late and I have better things to do.

FWIW,

- we removed the the natgas cooktop and replaced it with an induction model.

- my home brewery in the basement is powered by electricity, not gas, even though I initially designed and ordered parts for a natgas brewstand.

- this web page compares the efficiencies of heating water by various methods.
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/05/burning-desire-for-efficiency/

Pot over a flame = 16 to 25%. For reference, 5.5 Kwhr = 18,766 BTU. 18,766 / 80,000 = 23.4% <--- if 5.5 Kw element was as fast as a pot over a flame, this is what the relative efficiencies are.

 

[kal]

My gut feel is that it's on the high side as well. I'm curious where John Blichmann got the info and what the BYO editorial review board had to say about it. (I'm actually board of that board now so maybe I'll poke around a bit and ask).

The pessimist in me would say that Blichmann says this to promote their new electric setups but the article was written well before they were selling electric stuff - back when they only had propane burners so you'd think that if they wanted to help market their own products he would have tried lowering that CFM number for gas as much as possible.

My kitchen range has 6 gas burners in the rangetop (and electric oven below). The range produces 84200 BTU total if I had all 6 running at once (15K BTU each plus one 9.2K simmer burner). So pretty close to a 80,000 BTU propane burner.

The recommendation that comes into play the most from what I can find for calculating BTUs for rangetops by the Home Ventilating Institute (HVI) is to divide the BTU rating of your stove by 100 to arrive at a minimum guideline for CFM rating. That's 842CFM for me. Then you're supposed to add 9 CFM per foot of ductwork (we have about 20 feet) plus 25 CFM per elbow (we have 3). So 1097 CFM total. Our range hood is a 900 CFM model which is sold/matched to the range itself. So pretty close. We've never run all 6 at once.

Important to note too that larger fans will often require a makeup air system. We have a dedicated one in the basement with heater and automatically opening damper just because of this large kitchen range hood fan (the builder was required to install it by code). The silly thing cost more than the hood fan! (Sheesh)

Kal

 

[brewman !]

The ductwork additions are to up the CFM of the fan to counteract the flow losses due to higher pressure the ductwork will present. Applicable for the whimpy fans they put in most hoods, but not applicable for the inline fans that most homebrewers are using.

850 CFM sounds better for 80,000 BTU, but probably still a bit high. That probably accounts for steam boil off, etc while cooking.

I'll leave you guys to work out what the appropriate air flow should be. I'm building an electric powered brewery !

FWIW, I lost a lot of faith in JB for writing that. I thought he was an ex Cat engineer. 2600 CFM is a huge, huge amount of air ! Its a complete air change in a 2 story (basement + mainfloor) 1000 ft^2 house with 8 foot ceilings (16,000 ft^3) every 6 minutes ! For the whole house !

Like I said, our 100K BTU water heater moves everything though 4" PVC with a small, squirrel cage fan. I mean small !

As far as make up air, you are exactly right, especially given how air tight modern houses are. Over a certain CFM the makeup air needs to be brought in with a fan. And modern building code actually requires that the make up air gets preheated in some jurisdictions.

And make sure that the exhaust vent isn't close to any intakes ! You don't want to expel a bunch of combustion products and then draw them right back in.

There are a lot of reasons to like electric brewing for indoors.