Mangrove Jack's telling me what to do!

[brownni5]

With the nearest HBS a two-hour drive from me, I plan all my brews ahead and buy in bulk online... normally. I prefer liquid yeast for a number of reasons, so despite having to order everything online and have ingredients shipped, I typically avoid dry yeast. This weekend though, I found my favorite online store had MG Tripel yeast on clearance for $1.50/packet. Well that was just too good to pass up for an upcoming Tripel/BGS brew, so I ordered a couple.

When looking at their website for recommended pitching rates (4 gal @ 1.080-ish), I ran across something discouraging reuse of their yeast: "As a result of the drying process... yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and repitching."

I'm sorry, are they trying to boss me around? I had no intention of reusing yeast from a 1.080 beer, but now I might have to brew a small beer and then the Tripel! Does anyone know to what they are referring when they say that the drying process makes yeast unsuitable for repitching? I'm pretty sure I've repitched US-05 before with good results (I don't care how cheap it is, I like yeast ranching).

 

[Vale71]

The only downside of harvesting and repitching dry yeast is that you won't get the same character in the following beers as the fermentation profile changes with the second and even third re-pitch. But to claim that because of that dry yeast is "not suitable for repitching" seems like a far stretch to me.

 

[yoop89]

I did not see that on there site until you mentioned it. I am on my third re-pitch of M15. The first two beers (porter, milk stout) have been spot of for performance and expected profiles as far as I can tell.

you won't get the same character

What can I expect to change in subsequent pitches? Flavor profile? Attenuation?

 

[beernutz]

Maybe the "not suitable for harvesting and repitching" suggestion was added by the MG Sales division.

 

[Vale71]

It's strain dependent. The drying process puts stress on the yeast and therefore affects their overall performance. Harvested yeast has not endured this stress and will therefore behave normally, of course assuming yeast viability and vitality are optimal.
The consesus is that generally you will get somewhat higher attenuation and with ale yeasts a richer flavor profile (more esters).

 

[Miraculix]

This question has been asked to mj directly and they answered.it is somewhere here on the board.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This question has been asked to mj directly and they answered.it is somewhere here on the board.

If you have a direct link, that would be helpful. I tried searching HBT (using HBT search) but couldn't find the Q&A with MJ that you mentioned.

I did come up with these two links from 2018 - which seem to be good advice on what to watch for when reusing yeast, but nothing that mentions the Q&A with MJ that you referred to.

* https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/how-to-harvest-yeast.647028/#post-8252826
* https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/how-to-harvest-yeast.647028/#post-8255122

 

[Miraculix]

I have no link. The answer was basically that the results the yeast gives starts to drift with reusing. Therefore no consistency which they won't recommend. But if you don't mind, just do it. I think at least for the first few rounds, you won't notice a difference.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks. In my searches, I saw a couple of posts that mentioned the general concern of drift when reusing. That's good enough for me!

 

[Miraculix]

You have to keep two things in mind, sometimes the yeast itself changes (if it is a single strain), and sometimes the dry yeasts are inf act multi strains, like for example nottingham. Nottingham is a mix of lager and ale yeast. If repitched again and again, one of those two will start dominating the other one and then the results will oviously differ to a fresh pack. Unfortunately, we do not know if mj is selling multistrains and if they do, which of their yeasts are actually multi strains. So I would suggest, just try it out and see for yourself. If you see it going downhill with repitching, then choose either something else, or use fresh yeast.

 

[dmtaylor]

Yup, as others have suggested, there are two reasons MJ would tell you not to repitch:

1) Several of their yeasts are multi-strain, and the different strains will no longer be in balance if you repitch.

2) They'll sell more if they tell you not to repitch.

Hopefully they're more worried about #1, but could be #2 in some cases?!

 

[Vale71]

In my experience, vendors who do sell multi-strains label them clearly as "blends" and I don't see why they should keep such a fact hidden from the customer. In any case, no vendor will intentionally blend a lager and an ale strain as the result of letting a lager yeast work at ale temperatures is extremely unappealing to most beer drinkers (tons of esters, solvent smell/taste and so on). Any rumour of such "blends" is most certainly just made up.

 

[Soulshine2]

With the nearest HBS a two-hour drive from me, I plan all my brews ahead and buy in bulk online... normally. I prefer liquid yeast for a number of reasons, so despite having to order everything online and have ingredients shipped, I typically avoid dry yeast. This weekend though, I found my favorite online store had MG Tripel yeast on clearance for $1.50/packet. Well that was just too good to pass up for an upcoming Tripel/BGS brew, so I ordered a couple.

When looking at their website for recommended pitching rates (4 gal @ 1.080-ish), I ran across something discouraging reuse of their yeast: "As a result of the drying process... yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and repitching."

I'm sorry, are they trying to boss me around? I had no intention of reusing yeast from a 1.080 beer, but now I might have to brew a small beer and then the Tripel! Does anyone know to what they are referring when they say that the drying process makes yeast unsuitable for repitching? I'm pretty sure I've repitched US-05 before with good results (I don't care how cheap it is, I like yeast ranching).

what it means is that the strain can change,or morph from its "typical characteristic" that you bought and that it could be unpredictable for further generations of pitching.

 

[Miraculix]

In my experience, vendors who do sell multi-strains label them clearly as "blends" and I don't see why they should keep such a fact hidden from the customer. In any case, no vendor will intentionally blend a lager and an ale strain as the result of letting a lager yeast work at ale temperatures is extremely unappealing to most beer drinkers (tons of esters, solvent smell/taste and so on). Any rumour of such "blends" is most certainly just made up.

I suggest you read the warm fermented lager thread in this forum to get your knowledge up to date regarding lager yeast temperatures. I certainly haven't tested it myself, but read statements from various sources claiming that Nottingham is a mix of ale and lager yeasts, hence the clean profile with good flocculation.

 

[Vale71]

Thanks for the invite but I have much better sources than that. No way a lager yeast is going to produce a "clean profile" at >20°C without very expensive gimmicks and strict quality control. But on the other hand some people will drink any swill and claim that "it tastes clean". Brülosophy taste panels immediately spring to mind...

And Nottingham being a multi-strain is just one of the many unfounded rumours circulating on this board and others. Some vendros do sell blends but curiously none of them combine an ale and a lager strain...

 

[ESBrewer]

Yup, as others have suggested, there are two reasons MJ would tell you not to repitch:

1) Several of their yeasts are multi-strain, and the different strains will no longer be in balance if you repitch.

2) They'll sell more if they tell you not to repitch.

Hopefully they're more worried about #1, but could be #2 in some cases?!

I think so, too. Some dried strains are known to be multi-strains (I do not know if all are..) and the character may thus change over time. They could still produce good beer on repitch..

 

[balrog]

WLP 080, "A blend of ale and lager yeast, this strain produces a classic cream ale"

Not dry though.

 

[SanPancho]

Thanks for the invite but I have much better sources than that. No way a lager yeast is going to produce a "clean profile" at >20°C without very expensive gimmicks and strict quality control. But on the other hand some people will drink any swill and claim that "it tastes clean". Brülosophy taste panels immediately spring to mind...

And Nottingham being a multi-strain is just one of the many unfounded rumours circulating on this board and others. Some vendros do sell blends but curiously none of them combine an ale and a lager strain...

You’re welcome to ask northern brewer about it, or suregork. Theyve reported the results done the testing on the dna. The finding s indicate a blend for notty as i recall.

Regarding blends- very common for one strain the provide esters while the other takes over flocc, attenuation, body, etc. Isnt too surprising that a blend can be clean.

And ill personally vouch for 34/70 at 65-68. Granted, we only do hoppy lagers, we only do fresh pitch, but vdk is always neg and theres no sulfur anywhere. Esters are clean and light before we kill it with hops.

You’ve prejudged something (warm lagers) based on your textbooks. Which is understandable, but limiting. so ill simply point out that for less than 20 bucks you can find out for yourself. No need for debating it here. Brew one and be the judge.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the invite but I have much better sources than that. No way a lager yeast is going to produce a "clean profile" at >20°C without very expensive gimmicks and strict quality control. But on the other hand some people will drink any swill and claim that "it tastes clean". Brülosophy taste panels immediately spring to mind...

And Nottingham being a multi-strain is just one of the many unfounded rumours circulating on this board and others. Some vendros do sell blends but curiously none of them combine an ale and a lager strain...

It all depends on the type of yeast that is being used. Some lager yeast can do it warm, some cannot. As pointed out before, DNA testing was performed and it also shed some light on the why some might work warm while others don't, but I won't repeat it all as it is all written in the warm fermented lager thread.

There are nowadays even some lager yeasts available that are advertised for warm temperatures, California lager from mj comes to mind, which I have used at temperatures up to 32c in the summer heat. At 32c it was SLIGHTLY fruity, but just a hint, and this hint was actually pleasant.
At room temperature it is as clean as you would expect from a classic lager.

 

[Vale71]

I find California lagers (Anchor steam beer above all) simply disgusting. There is no way they can compare to a properly fermented lager.
If you used it at 32°C and found it to have a "clean" profile then I'm afraid the issue is with your taste buds. I wouldn't even take an ale yeast that high, except for some Belgian yeasts.

 

[Miraculix]

I find California lagers (Anchor steam beer above all) simply disgusting. There is no way they can compare to a properly fermented lager.
If you used it at 32°C and found it to have a "clean" profile then I'm afraid the issue is with your taste buds. I wouldn't even take an ale yeast that high, except for some Belgian yeasts.

Could you please read my post again, thanks.

In addition, California lager is the name of the yeast, nothing more. It has nothing to do with a classic American steam beer.

 

[Vale71]

You mean besides the fact it's the yeast American steam beer is fermented with?
I think we're done here, this is getting rather pointless.

 

[Miraculix]

You mean besides the fact it's the yeast American steam beer is fermented with?
I think we're done here, this is getting rather pointless.

I agree. You have been pointed to the source of information but instead of looking into it you stick to your own ideas. You have heard about multiple peoples own experience but you disregard them all as unsubstantiated for no apparent reason.

I don't intend to continue any discussion on this level.

 

[STMF]

You mean besides the fact it's the yeast American steam beer is fermented with?
I think we're done here, this is getting rather pointless.

You really make a lot of assumptions:

* The only downside with repitching dry yeast is a drift in character.
* If it doesnt say "Blend" on the package, it is a single strain.
* No vendor will blend a lager and an ale yeast.
* Fermenting lager at higher temperature will make tons of ester and solvent smells/taste.
* MJ54 is the yeast that Anchor Steam is brewed with.

You also claim to have greast sources. Care to share them with us?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I ran across something discouraging reuse of their yeast: "As a result of the drying process... yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and repitching."

I'm sorry, are they trying to boss me around? I had no intention of reusing yeast from a 1.080 beer, but now I might have to brew a small beer and then the Tripel! Does anyone know to what they are referring when they say that the drying process makes yeast unsuitable for repitching? I'm pretty sure I've repitched US-05 before with good results (I don't care how cheap it is, I like yeast ranching).

Dry yeast does seem to go "off" more quickly than liquid yeast when repitched - I know a commercial brewer who will only repitch dry yeast for 2-3 generations, whereas he takes liquid yeast for 10-12. Anecdotal evidence from homebrewers seems to back this up.

What's happening? It's well-known that yeast mutate more when stressed, and the drying/rehydration process is a very stressful process for them. So aside from any potential blend drift, the drying process seems to lead to a higher mutation rate, which means the former dried yeast stops brewing "true" after fewer generations than yeast that haven't gone through the stress of drying.

In my experience, vendors who do sell multi-strains label them clearly as "blends" and I don't see why they should keep such a fact hidden from the customer. In any case, no vendor will intentionally blend a lager and an ale strain as the result of letting a lager yeast work at ale temperatures is extremely unappealing to most beer drinkers (tons of esters, solvent smell/taste and so on). Any rumour of such "blends" is most certainly just made up.

You've been given the example of WLP080 which is advertised as an ale/lager blend, and there's WLP060 which is a mystery blend based on WLP001 which even White Labs will admit has "a crisp, clean lager-like character...A slight amount of sulfur can be produced". It's widely suspected to be a mix of 001/051/810, but they choose to "keep such a fact hidden from the customer".

Yes, Saaz-type lager yeast are pretty horrid at ale temperatures, but otherwise the whole boundary between lager and ale yeasts is way more blurry than you make out. We now know that eg WLP800 Pilsner is an ale yeast that likes it cold, whereas WLP051 California Ale V is a lager yeast that has always been used at ale temperatures.

The likes of Budweiser are fermented at 16C, and like it or not, lots of brewers on that high-temperature lager thread are getting results that are acceptable to them - including some who have worked for commercial breweries.

Thanks for the invite but I have much better sources than that.

Citation needed - care to share some of them?

Nottingham being a multi-strain is just one of the many unfounded rumours circulating on this board and others. Some vendros do sell blends but curiously none of them combine an ale and a lager strain...

You’re welcome to ask northern brewer about it, or suregork. Theyve reported the results done the testing on the dna. The finding s indicate a blend for notty as i recall.

To be fair, the status of Notty is up in the air, there's no DNA evidence either way but the microbiology points to a blend. Two people I trust - both professional brewing scientists - plated it out a few years ago and found different colonies with different colours on WLN agar, suggesting a 2:1 ratio of lager and ale yeasts. However the "lager" yeast grows at 37C which suggests that it's certainly not a Saaz type, but it could be some thermotolerant strain like the California lager yeasts. So we've got some microbiology pointing to Notty being a blend, but it's not yet been followed up by any DNA work. Maybe Lallemand have since cleaned up their culture, we don't know.

But we do know that growing yeast on a commercial scale is difficult - White Labs' lawsuit over WLP090 contaminated with diastaticus is the most famous example of contamination. But I know commercial brewers who are convinced that White Labs were not the only ones, that other producers have had contamination in the yeast they send out. Why should White Labs be the only ones?

 

[Vale71]

High temperature lager fermentations are standard in the brewing industry, however they are always conducted under pressure and with specific yeast strains. They don't just crank up the temperature willy-nilly and call it "good enough for me" like some homebrewers appear to be doing currently.

As far as "mystery dry yeast blends" go, dry yeast producers earn most of their money producing and selling baker's yeast, which is an ale yeast basically. They culture and package them on the same production facilities and since contamination is not easy to prevent with 100% effectiveness dry yeast is often contaminated with residual baker's yeast. My source: the head of the yeast bank at Doemens who was also my microbiology teacher. Maybe all these mysterious blends are just contaminated batches?

 

[SanPancho]

Contaminated at 2/1 ratio? Doubtful.

And since you refuse to believe in high temp lager ferm, lets not debate it. As has already been stated, you’re welcome to try it yourself.

 

[Vale71]

The very fact that you use the word "believe" means there is nothing to discuss for me, sorry.

 

[Miraculix]

The very fact that you use the word "believe" means there is nothing to discuss for me, sorry.

Mate, honestly....... YOU are truly unbelievable.

 

[SanPancho]

The very fact that you use the word "believe" means there is nothing to discuss for me, sorry.

Pretty insufferable. This thread and many more.

Tell you what, look up wailinguitar either here or on probrewer and ask him if you dont want to believe me or the dozens of folks on the warm lager thread. He ran a brewery in the SE where they had it at room temp.

And maybe read the research showing frohberg types operate at temps more closely related to ales than the saaz types do. Freely available.