Mangrove jack M41

[Pie11]

Hello,
I would like to try the m41, for a beer faintly inpired to belgian pale as de koninck pale.
I have read a lot of attenuation (that is really high, it's sta-1 positive) but nothing about aroma and profile.
I'm looking for informations about aromatic profile and fermentation temperature.
I used m41 once for a small fermentation aside an wlp530 for a dubbel, but the temperaure was reglated on the other fermenter. I found not well refined, rough. But really dry.
I will try give a second chance to m41.

 

[dmtaylor]

banana, gum, pineapple

YEAST MASTER by yours truly

Cheers.

 

[Pie11]

Thankyou dmtaylor, but i'm sorry,
M41 is a really different yeast than be134, that I use lot of time.
With only one m41 usage I'm sure that are differents.
Be134 is the classic saison yeast, (there only 2.5 saison yeast strain) with an "open" profile. Citric, pepeppery, fruity. No clove (as saison stile needs) and a reduced banana arome if well managed.
On mangroove jack side, m31 has a similar profile.
My experience suggest me that this sheet is far from reliable.
Lallemand abbey is surely not wlp500, lallemand is more like grimbergen yeast than chimay.
Be256 is more an dry english yest, with no spice character, that is opposite of m31 (that is similar to brasserie de blaugies or du pont yeast) that is surely not wlp590 that probaly is brassierie thirez yeast.
Be256 is sta1- pof-, m31 and wlp590 are sta1+ pof+.
I don't trust this sheet at all on belgian strains.

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks for the feedback. Ignore my sheet if you do not find it reliable. Unlike other equivalency tables, this one is based in part on genomic sequencing; and I can and will tweak it when I find sufficient evidence to do so. So I do appreciate any and all feedback.

You asked for aroma and profile for M41. My notes "banana, gum, pineapple" came from a personal tasting of a beer made with M41.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hello,
I would like to try the m41, for a beer faintly inpired to belgian pale as de koninck pale.

It's worth noting that WLP515, which is meant to come from de Koninck, is actually a lager yeast. There's certainly not much yeast character in DK.

 

[Protos]

I love M41. To my taste, it's the best of all dry Belgian yeasts available. It may be related to BE-134 genetically but in my experience those two strains stand very far apart tastewise, producing beers of completely different flavour profiles. I decidedly prefer M41 to BE-134.

I confirm the bubblegum and pineapple notes. This yeast also produces a noticeable amount of Glycerol (like M29 and unlike BE-134), slightly upping the mouthfeel and imparting a nice silky character to the beers, even to the highest-attenuated ones, so you never get a watery beer with it, even at 0.998 FG.

M41 also produces a very pleasant and unique "yeast bite", which I think is a flavour impact of some spicy phenols. The phenols are not much prominent in M41 aroma, they rather present themselves in that unique "bity" aftertaste. The phenolic flavour component of M41 reminds me rather of "poplar buds" than "cloves".

I've tried M41 at various temperatures, from 18C (Belgian Pale Ales) up to 34C (Belgian Golden Strongs). I prefer medium range of 22-24C, as at the lower temperatures it looses much of its character and at the higher end it tends to throw more acidity than I'm comfortable with.

This yeast doesn't favour high or even medium-high hopped beers. I don't know if that's "biotransformation" or what, but higher than 28 IBUs you're risking to get pretty harsh bitterness regardless of hop varieties or water chemistry, so with M41 I never go higher than 24 IBU.

I think M41 fermented at the lower end of the temp range is a suitable choise for a de Koninck clone. Although I think M47 would be a better option for that, as M41 may easily overattenuate the already light beer, and Glycerol won't compensate for the overattenuation at this low starting gravity. M41 really shines in strong beers, and a light Pale Ale might turn out a bit too thin.

 

[mac_1103]

there only 2.5 saison yeast strain

Sorry, what's a half a saison strain?

 

[Protos]

Sorry, what's a half a saison strain?

Mangrove Jack's M31, I guess.
Which is speculated to be a blend of a certain Belgian and a certain Saison strain.

 

[chthon]

Bolleke is a top-fermenting beer.

I would actually recommend to use MJ M42 New World Strong Ale. It"s not completely neutral, will add some fruity notes, but be more clean than using an abbey yeast.

 

[Pie11]

I love M41. To my taste, it's the best of all dry Belgian yeasts available. It may be related to BE-134 genetically but in my experience those two strains stand very far apart tastewise, producing beers of completely different flavour profiles. I decidedly prefer M41 to BE-134.

I confirm the bubblegum and pineapple notes. This yeast also produces a noticeable amount of Glycerol (like M29 and unlike BE-134), slightly upping the mouthfeel and imparting a nice silky character to the beers, even to the highest-attenuated ones, so you never get a watery beer with it, even at 0.998 FG.

M41 also produces a very pleasant and unique "yeast bite", which I think is a flavour impact of some spicy phenols. The phenols are not much prominent in M41 aroma, they rather present themselves in that unique "bity" aftertaste. The phenolic flavour component of M41 reminds me rather of "poplar buds" than "cloves".

I've tried M41 at various temperatures, from 18C (Belgian Pale Ales) up to 34C (Belgian Golden Strongs). I prefer medium range of 22-24C, as at the lower temperatures it looses much of its character and at the higher end it tends to throw more acidity than I'm comfortable with.

This yeast doesn't favour high or even medium-high hopped beers. I don't know if that's "biotransformation" or what, but higher than 28 IBUs you're risking to get pretty harsh bitterness regardless of hop varieties or water chemistry, so with M41 I never go higher than 24 IBU.

I think M41 fermented at the lower end of the temp range is a suitable choise for a de Koninck clone. Although I think M47 would be a better option for that, as M41 may easily overattenuate the already light beer, and Glycerol won't compensate for the overattenuation at this low starting gravity. M41 really shines in strong beers, and a light Pale Ale might turn out a bit too thin.

Thank you,
This a really interesting response: the information that I'm looking for.

 

[Pie11]

Sorry, what's a half a saison strain?

The first saison yeast is brasserie dupont (that uses a blend of 4 differents strains). But the aromtomic profile is generated mainly from the well known strain that loves fall asleep at 2/3 of the work).
The second is brasserie thirez (selected into archive of siebel institute). Brasserie thirez is in france, but the strain is belgian. It called (mistake) french saison.
The half strain is brasserie de blaugies: in the origin is the classic dupont strain, but it was selected for a more reliable fermentation.
I have breeded the thirez et the blaugies.
It's easy to identify what are the sources of many commercial strains.
Other "saison" strain are not true saison strain.
Yvan de baets has done a lot of blog post, videos and podcast on saison strains.

 

[Protos]

brasserie dupont
brasserie thirez
brasserie de blaugies

How do you correlate the three to the available dry Saison strains:
Mangrove Jack's M29,
Lalbrew Belle Saison,
Fermentis BE-134,
and the Mangrove Jack's M31 "Saisonish" blend?

(There's also a Gozdawa Noble Saison dry yeast but that is almost for sure just a repacked Lalbrew Belle Saison).

 

[duncan_disorderly]

How do you correlate the three to the available dry Saison strains:
Mangrove Jack's M29,
Lalbrew Belle Saison,
Fermentis BE-134,
and the Mangrove Jack's M31 "Saisonish" blend?

(There's also a Gozdawa Noble Saison dry yeast but that is almost for sure just a repacked Lalbrew Belle Saison).

I don't think you can correlate them. Or perhaps you can? A couple of years ago I had Saison Du Pont served from a keg in a bar and I couldnt believe the similarity to the beer i had in bottles at home, which I fermented with M31. YMMV.

 

[Protos]

I can't correlate them unfortunately, as I rarely have an opportunity to taste a fresh original Dupont, Thiriez or Blaugies.
But I'm sure the dry strains must originate from those used in breweries.
Otherwise, what another source they might come from?

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I can't correlate them unfortunately, as I rarely have an opportunity to taste a fresh original Dupont, Thiriez or Blaugies.
But I'm sure the dry strains must originate from those used in breweries.
Otherwise, what another source they might come from?

Well M29 and Belle Saison are believed to be the same, and Belle Saison has been genetically matched closely to WLP545. Their Belgian Strong Ale yeast from the Ardennes.

And M31 is thought to possibly be a blend, Belle Saison again Maybe, plus another.

 

[Protos]

In my experience, M29 and BS produce remarkably different flavour profiles (M29 being way better).
M29 is most probably a blend that may contain some BS, but that's for sure not the whole story about it...
What BE-134 might be then?

 

[duncan_disorderly]

In my experience, M29 and BS produce remarkably different flavour profiles (M29 being way better).
M29 is most probably a blend that may contain some BS, but that's for sure not the whole story about it...
What BE-134 might be then?

I've no idea about be-134. Never seen any info that wasn't just guesswork.

M29 could well be a blend. It seems to be how MJ go about things.

 

[Pie11]

I think tharnt Belle saison (I don't like) is from brasserie thirez, be-134 form brasserie de blaugies or a selection/breeding for a more reliable yeast from main strain of dupont.
I used m29 only once, I'm not sure that is a saison yeast. The profile seems different, without the classic spicy pop.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I used m29 only once, I'm not sure that is a saison yeast. The profile seems different, without the classic spicy pop.

According to someone who is in a position to know, M29 is Belle, which is known for not being the most...exciting of saison strains.

If you've not seen it, this is a good overview of the yeast lab saison strains :
https://www.maltosefalcons.com/blogs/brewing-techniques-tips/a-guide-to-saisons-and-saison-yeasts

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My experience suggest me that this sheet is far from reliable.
Lallemand abbey is surely not wlp500, lallemand is more like grimbergen yeast than chimay.

All we can say is that Abbaye, WLP500 Monastery and 1214 Belgian Abbey form a distinct group separate from all other brewing yeasts, as they are S.cerevisiae x kudriavzevii hybrids. They may represent separate isolations of a yeast from Chimay or wherever, or a single isolation that has drifted a little in different yeast labs, but they are closer to one another than anything else. Bear in mind also that the drying process tends to mute the flavours of first-generation yeast.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Lallemand abbey is surely not wlp500, lallemand is more like grimbergen yeast than chimay.

Is Grimbergen yeast a strain that can be purchased?

I have only brewed 2 batches with WLP500 (both a few years ago) and I just bottled my 3rd batch with Lallemand Abbaye. I find that Abbaye reminds me a lot of the character I remember from WLP500. They both add some cherry flavors. I would be curious how they compare in a side by side. WLP530 has been my goto Belgian strain for the past few years, but if this Tripel turns out, I might move to Abbaye. I use mostly dry yeast these days and really enjoy the ease of use and storage (along with the lower cost).

 

[GoodTruble]

I used M41 to brew the Ale of Asgard recipe (an insanely strong 12% Belgian blonde).

Very active fermentation that went on for 4 weeks (probably due to the high gravity). Finished pretty dry and smooth (at 1.010), and not tart. I generally agree with Protos' notes and description above. Has a clean Belgian taste and smell without getting funky. Mine had a pleasant bite and aftertaste, but that could have just been the high alcohol content.