torilen
Well-Known Member
Sorry if this has been covered before. What would be the difference between using a malt extract and using malt grains? Flavor difference? Cost efficient difference? Brewing time?
Thanks
Thanks
Malt Extract vs Malt Grains
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ChelisHubby
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All of the things you mentioned. Grain is cheaper to buy than extract but it requires more equipment in general and more time. The flavor in general is better with the grain than extract. 
McKnuckle
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And there are far more ingredient options available with grain. Plus you can combine them in infinite ways, whereas a given type of extract is always a fixed blend of sources.
Jimbodaman
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Flavor Difference: With malt extract it is generally harder to make dry beers, because the maltster controls the temp the grains were steeped at which is usually on the medium-high range. Most of my extract brews stopped around 1.017 FG. Whereas all grain I can get it down to ~1.012 (for the same recipe).
Cost efficient Difference: If you had all the necessary equipment for all grain then all grain would be cheaper per bottle of finished beer. However the overhead cost of even a modest all grain set up usually out weighs the extra few dollars per brew the extract adds.
Brewing time difference: Depends how time efficient your brew days are. A very slow extract brewer could be as fast as a very fast AG brewer. If you have an unfamiliar all grain set up, and your brew day planning is poor expect at least 8 hours from start to finish. If you're fast and efficient 5 hours can be achieved. 3 hours if you're crazy good.
About 2 hours for slow extract brews.
Cost efficient Difference: If you had all the necessary equipment for all grain then all grain would be cheaper per bottle of finished beer. However the overhead cost of even a modest all grain set up usually out weighs the extra few dollars per brew the extract adds.
Brewing time difference: Depends how time efficient your brew days are. A very slow extract brewer could be as fast as a very fast AG brewer. If you have an unfamiliar all grain set up, and your brew day planning is poor expect at least 8 hours from start to finish. If you're fast and efficient 5 hours can be achieved. 3 hours if you're crazy good.
About 2 hours for slow extract brews.
McKnuckle
Well-Known Member
A modest all-grain set up is a single kettle big enough for your entire mash and a paint strainer bag. Plus a reliable thermometer. Hardly expensive! Of course, most of us want to get fancier, but the point is that a mash setup for AG can be extremely basic. Don't let it be a deterrent. The homebrew world has evolved and simplified beyond giant 3 vessel systems as the de facto option.
My brew days are 3.5-4 hours usually.
My brew days are 3.5-4 hours usually.
johnhenryrolf
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Meaning, brewing in a bag (BIAB?)? I could use a little insight, and guidance on this process as well. It all seems pretty confusing to me...I can have an extract (5 gal) batch brewed in about 1.5-2 hrs. Time is a BIG factor in my household!
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McKnuckle
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Yes, that's right. Brew in a bag. You'll never get an AG batch brewed in 2 hours, so if time is the ultimate factor, stick with extract.
BIAB saves time on the sparge/lauter (especially if you don't sparge!). But you still have to heat strike water, mash for at least 30 minutes, do a bit of stirring, and drain. You can do the last step while bringing the wort up to a boil, though. Perhaps the main thing is that you only have one vessel, so no time-consuming transfers to deal with.
Not to belabor about BIAB in this thread... there's a sub-forum for it on HBT and tons of info on the internet. And there's also threads galore about short cuts to save time in brewing, such as milling grain and measuring out ingredients the night before, and delaying some clean-up activities to the day after.
BIAB saves time on the sparge/lauter (especially if you don't sparge!). But you still have to heat strike water, mash for at least 30 minutes, do a bit of stirring, and drain. You can do the last step while bringing the wort up to a boil, though. Perhaps the main thing is that you only have one vessel, so no time-consuming transfers to deal with.
Not to belabor about BIAB in this thread... there's a sub-forum for it on HBT and tons of info on the internet. And there's also threads galore about short cuts to save time in brewing, such as milling grain and measuring out ingredients the night before, and delaying some clean-up activities to the day after.
Mashing at its simplest is just putting milled grains into water the proper temperature to activate the enzymes, then separating the wort from the grains. You need a malt that isn't highly kilned (because too much heat kills the enzymes needed to convert the starch to sugar) and that hasn't already gone through the conversion in the husk (caramel malts have already been converted). With that start, the malts that can convert include Pilsener, brewers, pale, pale ale (not quite the same) Munich, or Vienna. These are all types of barley malt. You can also get wheat, oat, or rye malt for different flavors.
If you want to see the conversion, heat some water to 160 degrees and pour it into a wide mouth jar leaving about a cup of space at the top. Grind up half a pound of pale malt and dump it in the jar and stir well to break up the clumps and immediately take a taste (cool it first). After half an hour, taste the liquid. The first taste should be just starchy, like oatmeal or cream of wheat. The second sample should be sweet. If it is, you just did your first mash.
torilen
Well-Known Member
If anyone else has anything to add, please do. But I wanted to toss in a
thank you to those who have replied already. You've given me lots of good info, AND led me to other things to look up, so I've learned even more on top of that.
I'm starting to understand the whole mashing and sparging stuff.
thank you to those who have replied already. You've given me lots of good info, AND led me to other things to look up, so I've learned even more on top of that.
I'm starting to understand the whole mashing and sparging stuff.
Mashing is generally 1.25 to 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. Mashing is most often done for one hour. Mash temps go from about 147F to 156F. Less temp, more fermentables, more temp, less fermentables generally speaking.
I do pb/pm biab, with as much as 8.5lbs of grains in 2 1.2 gallons water. 1 1/2 gallon dunk sparge (aka batch sparge) at 168F for ten minutes. Add sparge wort to main wort for total boil volume. In my case, about 3 1/2 gallons in my 5 gallon kettle.
I do pb/pm biab, with as much as 8.5lbs of grains in 2 1.2 gallons water. 1 1/2 gallon dunk sparge (aka batch sparge) at 168F for ten minutes. Add sparge wort to main wort for total boil volume. In my case, about 3 1/2 gallons in my 5 gallon kettle.
Someone said they have a hard time getting extract to lower FG's. I've not had that issue - most of my extracts are ending between 1.011-1.014. And, for COST, if you buy grains in BULK, sure there are real savings to be had, but if you look at KITS and compare an all-grain kit vs. an extract kit, you'll see a difference of about $2.
I'm a new brewer, first three batches were extract, last two were all-grain.
I skipped past BIAB, which I had every intention to do once I bought or found a pot large enough. However, I ran across a deal on Craiglist where the guy was selling, among other things, a mash tun made from a cooler, complete with ball valve and torpedo screen. It was all a steal so i couldn't resist.
Well. I decided to plunge in. Now, to understand what I did you have to understand my background. I'm trained as a scientist so being able to isolate variables, measure accurately, and so on is something I just have to do. A character flaw, if you will, and if you're more charitable, an admirable trait.
Anyway, I really didn't *need* anything more than the mash tun to do this if I bought my grain bill already crushed at the LHBS or from online. Heck, you can make a mash tun for under $75. The cooler is under $30, all you need do is add a ball valve (or some such), and a screen or false bottom or some such. They don't have to be pricey.
Now, that's all you really *have* to have to do all grain. You put your heated strike water in the tun, add the grain as you mix it in, stir a couple times while it undergoes the reactions you need, drain and sparge (rinse the grain of sugars).
I drained into a kettle, and then when it went to a trickle I switched to a pitcher and started the kettle heating for the boil. At that point it's essentially the same as extract brewing.
HOWEVER--and you knew there had to be a however, didn't you?--I can't just stop at that. I bought a refractometer so I could quickly and easily see how I was doing with my conversion. I also bought a PH meter so I could assess PH of the mash, and then of course I had to buy amendments for the water as needed, and I have some lactic acid so I needed a pipette to measure it.....and I bought my own grain mill.
Do I really need all that stuff? You tell me. The first all-grain batch I only had the refractometer, had poor efficiency, sparged wrong, didn't stir the mash during the mashing--man, I made a bunch of mistakes.
Know what? I didn't get what I thought I'd get, but I had a friend taste that beer last Friday--he's got a really good palate according to a brewer friend--and he gave me possibly the highest praise: "I'd pay money for this."
Well. That's without all the extra stuff, using water whose characteristics I was uncertain about, using softened water out of the tap....and you know what? I got lucky. Very lucky.
So I can't attribute the final product to anything I purposely did, but apparently the brewing process is robust, i.e,. resistant to errors on the part of the newbie brewer.
Naturally, wanting to control the entire process to the extent possible, I bought my own grain mill, many different grains and several hops, 3 kinds of yeast, and now I am planning to brew again this weekend. What? Don't know yet, but I have some ideas in mind.
****************
Is All-Grain better than extract? Some say there is an "extract twang" in such beer, others say they can't tell what that means. Brulosopher has done a couple comparisons and concluded that while there is a difference, whether that's good or bad depends on your palate.
One reason i wanted to do all-grain was to see for myself if there's a difference and which I like better. I have my second all-grain batch in the fermenter and it was my attempt to clone what I did with my 2nd and 3rd extract batches. Even though I believe I did the grain bill properly (and I had good efficiency in the mash process), it's much lighter in color than the extract version. Will that translate to taste? I don't know. I'll see after this weekend when I rack to a keg and start to carbonate it.
So--those are my impressions as a new brewer and as a new brewer just starting all-grain. Good luck, enjoy the process (I surely do!), and most of all, enjoy the journey.
I skipped past BIAB, which I had every intention to do once I bought or found a pot large enough. However, I ran across a deal on Craiglist where the guy was selling, among other things, a mash tun made from a cooler, complete with ball valve and torpedo screen. It was all a steal so i couldn't resist.
Well. I decided to plunge in. Now, to understand what I did you have to understand my background. I'm trained as a scientist so being able to isolate variables, measure accurately, and so on is something I just have to do. A character flaw, if you will, and if you're more charitable, an admirable trait.
Anyway, I really didn't *need* anything more than the mash tun to do this if I bought my grain bill already crushed at the LHBS or from online. Heck, you can make a mash tun for under $75. The cooler is under $30, all you need do is add a ball valve (or some such), and a screen or false bottom or some such. They don't have to be pricey.
Now, that's all you really *have* to have to do all grain. You put your heated strike water in the tun, add the grain as you mix it in, stir a couple times while it undergoes the reactions you need, drain and sparge (rinse the grain of sugars).
I drained into a kettle, and then when it went to a trickle I switched to a pitcher and started the kettle heating for the boil. At that point it's essentially the same as extract brewing.
HOWEVER--and you knew there had to be a however, didn't you?--I can't just stop at that. I bought a refractometer so I could quickly and easily see how I was doing with my conversion. I also bought a PH meter so I could assess PH of the mash, and then of course I had to buy amendments for the water as needed, and I have some lactic acid so I needed a pipette to measure it.....and I bought my own grain mill.
Do I really need all that stuff? You tell me. The first all-grain batch I only had the refractometer, had poor efficiency, sparged wrong, didn't stir the mash during the mashing--man, I made a bunch of mistakes.
Know what? I didn't get what I thought I'd get, but I had a friend taste that beer last Friday--he's got a really good palate according to a brewer friend--and he gave me possibly the highest praise: "I'd pay money for this."
Well. That's without all the extra stuff, using water whose characteristics I was uncertain about, using softened water out of the tap....and you know what? I got lucky. Very lucky.
So I can't attribute the final product to anything I purposely did, but apparently the brewing process is robust, i.e,. resistant to errors on the part of the newbie brewer.
Naturally, wanting to control the entire process to the extent possible, I bought my own grain mill, many different grains and several hops, 3 kinds of yeast, and now I am planning to brew again this weekend. What? Don't know yet, but I have some ideas in mind.
****************
Is All-Grain better than extract? Some say there is an "extract twang" in such beer, others say they can't tell what that means. Brulosopher has done a couple comparisons and concluded that while there is a difference, whether that's good or bad depends on your palate.
One reason i wanted to do all-grain was to see for myself if there's a difference and which I like better. I have my second all-grain batch in the fermenter and it was my attempt to clone what I did with my 2nd and 3rd extract batches. Even though I believe I did the grain bill properly (and I had good efficiency in the mash process), it's much lighter in color than the extract version. Will that translate to taste? I don't know. I'll see after this weekend when I rack to a keg and start to carbonate it.
So--those are my impressions as a new brewer and as a new brewer just starting all-grain. Good luck, enjoy the process (I surely do!), and most of all, enjoy the journey.
I'll bet if you tried a batch where you added melanoidin malt to your mash you could get pretty close to the same color.
When extract is made it has to be concentrated and I think that is where some of the darker colors come from. If you took your first runnings and boiled them a little while before you added your sparge you might also be able to match color. Maybe even the taste of the extract.
I've done extract beers that are light colored like lagers, light pale ales, etc. It all depends on what extract you're using & what beer you intend to make.
I'll bet if you tried a batch where you added melanoidin malt to your mash you could get pretty close to the same color.
When extract is made it has to be concentrated and I think that is where some of the darker colors come from. If you took your first runnings and boiled them a little while before you added your sparge you might also be able to match color. Maybe even the taste of the extract.
I perhaps should have noted this, but the extracts had steeping grains. I matched those grains exactly in my grain bill, but still the color was light.
Makes me wonder what would happen if I steeped those grains instead of mashing them. I just figured they'd produce the same effect. One more example of how logic doesn't always work in this business.
[Not to threadjack but now that I'm thinking about it, makes me wonder if the steeping grains convert starch to sugar much at all, given that I steeped them in about 5 gallons of water.]
Grains that can be steeped are already converted, or are roasted & produce more long-chain sugars for color & flavor. Long-chain sugars can't be metabolized by brewing yeasts.
Man, I love this site.
I just used "normal" grains that I presume wouldn't have been converted or roasted.
I anticipate this beer will be good (I hope so!) but I'm not convinced that it will have similar flavor. Among the reasons, the steeping grains.
Exactly what are you considering " normal"? There are roasted grains, just for color. Then crystal/caramelized grains for color & flavor. Then base malts with high diastatic power for converting starches to sugars. Those are the basics, anyway...
Well, normal *is* in the eye of the beholder.
Essentially, malts. I've since learned a bit about this (man, there are a lot of bits!), and I don't believe the steeping grains were equivalent to unmashed malts. Live and learn!
I do anticipate the product will taste good, just not the same as I expected.
I think you mean, " unmalted"? Roasted grains come that way, just for color.
