Making vinegar from beer

[Curtis2010]

I'm seeing a potential mini-solera here. It seems like you could decant a starter into a jug and add the vinegar mother, then every time you make a starter for a batch of beer, add some to the jug. Then pull off a portion when the jug starts to get full, and set that aside to finish aging. That way you have a continual mother colony and you're constantly feeding it when you make a batch of beer.

Anyone see problems with this?

No, I've been considering something similar myself. After all, traditional balsamic vinegar is made using a full on solera processes so why not a mini-solera. I think a mini-solera of just a few small oak barrels, just a gallon or two in size, would be great for vinegar.

I've been considering building a proper cellar for beer, wine, cheese, vinegar, mead.... I think it would be way cool to have a couple of mini-soleras going in there. Maybe one for vinegar and one for mead....yum.

 

[Curtis2010]

Ran across a lonesome bottle of unfilter apple cider vinegar in the grocery store yeasterday. Bought a jug of apple juice and a packet of bread yeast (fermenting now). Next up, my own batch of apple cider vinegar.

 

[TheZymurgist]

No, I've been considering something similar myself. After all, traditional balsamic vinegar is made using a full on solera processes so why not a mini-solera. I think a mini-solera of just a few small oak barrels, just a gallon or two in size, would be great for vinegar.

I've been considering building a proper cellar for beer, wine, cheese, vinegar, mead.... I think it would be way cool to have a couple of mini-soleras going in there. Maybe one for vinegar and one for mead....yum.

That sounds awesome! I've done a little more research on this, and it seems to be pretty popular. I'm just going to use a 2.5 gallon fermenting bucket I have lying around, but the barrels sound like they'd be fun!

 

[Jsamp]

This thread intrigued me so I picked up a bottle Of Braggs unfiltered, unpasteurized, apple cider vinegar with 'mother'. I'll sacrifice a couple bottles of edwort's apfelwein I have aging to try this. I also want to try my hand at some red wine and malt vinegar. Looks like a fun experiment.

 

[Curtis2010]

That sounds awesome! I've done a little more research on this, and it seems to be pretty popular. I'm just going to use a 2.5 gallon fermenting bucket I have lying around, but the barrels sound like they'd be fun!

And for homebrew vinegar you don't need large barrels so not wildly expensive to set up a mini-solera of 3 barrels. I think 2 gallon barrels would be plenty. Bottle from the bottom barrel once a year and have a never ending supply of interesting vinegar.

I'm thinking a primary fermentation vessel of glass or ceramic and then decant into first barrel to start the aging process.

A solera aged red wine vinegar should even be balsamic-like.

What I haven't found yet is whether there is actually any difference in the acetobact strains used for diff vinegars. They sell culture as such, but are they actually bilogically different?

 

[Curtis2010]

That sounds awesome! I've done a little more research on this, and it seems to be pretty popular. I'm just going to use a 2.5 gallon fermenting bucket I have lying around, but the barrels sound like they'd be fun!

And for homebrew vinegar you don't need large barrels so not wildly expensive to set up a mini-solera of 3 barrels. I think 2 gallon barrels would be plenty. Bottle from the bottom barrel once a year and have a never ending supply of interesting vinegar.

I'm thinking a primary fermentation vessel of glass or ceramic and then decant into first barrel to start the aging process.

A solera aged red wine vinegar should even be balsamic-like.

What I haven't found yet is whether there is actually any difference in the acetobact strains used for diff vinegars. They sell culture as such, but are they actually bilogically different?

 

[Curtis2010]

As a quick start on oak aging vinegar, I ordered some medium roast oak chips. I plan to add soon and leave in place till about June. Any thoughts on how much to use per gallon of vinegar?

 

[imasickboy]

Not many. When you have five gallons of beer on an ounce of chips for several months, oak quickly becomes the dominant flavor, and takes forever to mellow to a drinkable flavor.

Divide that ounce of chips by five, and maybe use even less than that, just so you don't over-oak the vinegar. Since it's just a test, I don't expect that you would want to wait a year or so for your over-oaked vinegar to become usable.

Like most things, you can put more in later if it needs it, but you can't take it out if you use too much.

I would definitely err on the side of caution.

That said, I picked up some mother last week, and am going to me heading down the vinegar path shortly, as well.

 

[sumbrewindude]

Just had to pop back in here - so my wild yeast experiment from this summer may have gone bust - it was fine for like 4 months, but over the last 2 months, I've noticed oddball things going on in the bottle. Looks like I ended up with a wild mother in there, of what I'm not sure, but it certainly LOOKS like a mother. It's still got the airlock on it, and it's not had any intrusion as I keep it topped up all the time, but I supposed I've got something to play with for the small batch vinegar experiment now.

Now, to keep things moving along should I put in fermented beer, or just leftover runs from the boil kettle sans fermenting? Last few beers have ended up a quart/plus strong in the fermenter and I've been scrambling for bottles to save the extra. I could put it in "the Tank" with the mother to save some headaches...

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

I'm still very much a vinegar noob, but here are my thoughts:

1. I don't think so and I have not. Yeasts feed on sugars and there are no sugars being added for them to eat. Once the acetabact do their thing on the alcohol then the highly acidic environ should kill any yeast

2. Oxygen is important to acetabact ferm. I've let my beer sit, loosely covered, to go flat and then added to ferm crock. I areate the crock occassionally with a whisk. An areation system. like for brewing, would likely be a good thing.

Thank you for addressing my points directly. I have 24 fl oz. of micro brew inoculated with a Whole Foods unfiltered vinegar sitting in a Mason Jar at the moment, covered by layers of sterile gauze to allow breathing. When you mention using a whisk, what method of sanitation do you use on the whisk, if any?

I'm more a newb, so I'm still thinking like a brewer. Thanks!

 

[Curtis2010]

Thank you for addressing my points directly. I have 24 fl oz. of micro brew inoculated with a Whole Foods unfiltered vinegar sitting in a Mason Jar at the moment, covered by layers of sterile gauze to allow breathing. When you mention using a whisk, what method of sanitation do you use on the whisk, if any?

I'm more a newb, so I'm still thinking like a brewer. Thanks!

I cleaned it and sprayed with vinegar! My thought is that the acidity should kill most bugs.

Given the acidic nature of vinegar I've been a bit less cautious about sanitizing. However, I do have a little souring going on in one crock of malt vinegar so something else is growing in there. Wonder what else likes alcohol/acidic environments?

 

[Curtis2010]

Not many. When you have five gallons of beer on an ounce of chips for several months, oak quickly becomes the dominant flavor, and takes forever to mellow to a drinkable flavor.

Divide that ounce of chips by five, and maybe use even less than that, just so you don't over-oak the vinegar. Since it's just a test, I don't expect that you would want to wait a year or so for your over-oaked vinegar to become usable.

Like most things, you can put more in later if it needs it, but you can't take it out if you use too much.

I would definitely err on the side of caution.

That said, I picked up some mother last week, and am going to me heading down the vinegar path shortly, as well.

I just put about a tea spoon of medium roasted oak chips in a gallon of vinegar. Did this with a malt and a cider vinegar. Will be gone until about June so will see what they are like when I return.

Also decanted a few bottles of malt vinegar. Will be interesting to see if their flavor profile changes from about 6 months of just bottle conditioning.

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

I cleaned it and sprayed with vinegar! My thougjt is that the acidity should kill most bugs.

Given the acidic nature of vinegar I've been a bit less cautious about sanitizing. However, I do have a little souring going on in one crock of malt vinegar so something else is growing in there. Wonder what else likes alcohol/acidic environments?

Maybe lactobacillus? Just a stab in the dark on my part. I'm no microbiologist.

 

[Curtis2010]

Maybe lactobacillus? Just a stab in the dark on my part. I'm no microbiologist.

Except lactob eat sugars. However, I did add some beer to this batch about a month ago. Could have some lactob eating on those sugars I suppose. Be interesting to see where it goes.

These are just little learning batches for me, but will have to be more careful with future batches.

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

So... I know that when you are brewing beer, you check your FG until it stabilizes to know when your yeast has finished.

So, by extrapolation, could you say that once pH stabilizes, that your vinegar is done? Is there a simple way to detect this without checking pH (or perhaps a kitchen pH test)? I could always taste it, but what does "green" vinegar taste like?

Pardon me for adhering to the brewing analogy, but it would be nice to know if there is an easy way to check.

 

[unionrdr]

I'll second this. Hadn't thought about that part...

 

[Curtis2010]

I assume checking the Ph would be a good indicator, but time and taste are too. The couple of batches Ive made so far were OMG acidic after about a month...Im assumimg thats "done".

The material Ive read on vinegar making so far is more artsy/craftsy than brewing science oreinted.

 

[Curtis2010]

Left a homebrew malt vinegar sitting since January....Holy Acidity Batman! Tried a teaspoon last night and spent the next several minutes coughing & hacking...wow!

You could etch metal with this stuff.

Any ideas on controlling or adjusting acidity in vinegar?

 

[Owly055]

Left a homebrew malt vinegar sitting since January....Holy Acidity Batman! Tried a teaspoon last night and spent the next several minutes coughing & hacking...wow!

You could etch metal with this stuff.

Any ideas on controlling or adjusting acidity in vinegar?

Vinegar is supposed to be acidic. The acidity will be proportional to the alcohol content of the beer, wine, etc. The acetobacter is going to keep gobbling it up making the vinegar more and more sour. The logical solution is to dilute, or stop the process with heat........ or both. Killing it with heat will stop it....but exposure to microbes in the environment could restart the souring process. Vinegar sours pretty slowly, so of course you can wait until you have what you want, then bottle it and hot water bath it like you would canning fruit, etc. It would be pretty stable after you open and start using it. You could dilute with water or with more beer.... but do you want alcohol in vinegar? I'd be tempted to dilute with some wort, then use heat to stop fermentation. The wort would give some sweetness along with dilution to moderate the sourness in two ways.


H.W.

 

[Curtis2010]

Vinegar is supposed to be acidic. The acidity will be proportional to the alcohol content of the beer, wine, etc. The acetobacter is going to keep gobbling it up making the vinegar more and more sour. The logical solution is to dilute, or stop the process with heat........ or both. Killing it with heat will stop it....but exposure to microbes in the environment could restart the souring process. Vinegar sours pretty slowly, so of course you can wait until you have what you want, then bottle it and hot water bath it like you would canning fruit, etc. It would be pretty stable after you open and start using it. You could dilute with water or with more beer.... but do you want alcohol in vinegar? I'd be tempted to dilute with some wort, then use heat to stop fermentation. The wort would give some sweetness along with dilution to moderate the sourness in two ways.


H.W.

Yes, I think low ABV is the way to start for vinegar. I started that batch with Guiness. Im thinking a lower ABV, but malty, would be good. Maybe I'll brew up a small batch just for that...like a low ABV Bock. I think diluting with wort or malt drink would work, but the sugars could then be problematic...maybe the acidity would keep sugar loving bugs at bay? No harm in trying just for grins....Ive got about a 5 year supply of the stuff now.

I decanted off a few small bottles of the malt vinegar batch before leaving and these are much less intensely acidic.

Also left an Apple Cider batch with oak chips going which is much less acidic...and grew a motha of a mother in six months. Im thinking the oak chips gave it more surface area to grow.

 

[unionrdr]

Me too! I got to get the current batches bottled before I can start on the Burton ale & the English bitter for the vinegar.

 

[Curtis2010]

So... I know that when you are brewing beer, you check your FG until it stabilizes to know when your yeast has finished.

So, by extrapolation, could you say that once pH stabilizes, that your vinegar is done? Is there a simple way to detect this without checking pH (or perhaps a kitchen pH test)? I could always taste it, but what does "green" vinegar taste like?

Pardon me for adhering to the brewing analogy, but it would be nice to know if there is an easy way to check.

I think that's a reasonable analogy...after all it is a fermentation process too.

I plan to test this at some point and also test which ph level we prefer so I can target that.

 

[Curtis2010]

...
Also left an Apple Cider batch with oak chips going which is much less acidic...and grew a motha of a mother in six months. Im thinking the oak chips gave it more surface area to grow.

GF tried the Cider Vinegar and judged it excellent. The malt is gonna require some more work.

 

[burninator]

I had a starter of Crooked Stave dregs that turned to vinegar, and I'd been putting off throwing it out, so last night I poured the sour liquid into a crock along with 6 bottles of brown porter I wasn't really loving (good taste, too thin), and a bit of the dregs from a bottle of Bragg's. Then I covered it with an old shirt.

It was pretty bubbly this morning. The pic below is right after mixing, last night.

Now we wait, I guess.

View attachment 1433947253166.jpg

 

[unionrdr]

I'm torn between trying to use a 1 gallon jug, or a 1 or 2 gallon pail? My future MIL said I could use the mother from some cider vinegar, the natural unfiltered stuff, like she gave my wife. Maybe shake it up, & use a small amount of that?

 

[burninator]

I'm torn between trying to use a 1 gallon jug, or a 1 or 2 gallon pail? My future MIL said I could use the mother from some cider vinegar, the natural unfiltered stuff, like she gave my wife. Maybe shake it up, & use a small amount of that?

I'd think you want the pail, for greater O2 exposure.

 

[unionrdr]

Thanks. I was sorta leaning that way, but wasn't 100% sure. New gig for me to make vinegar...on purpose!

 

[Curtis2010]

I'm torn between trying to use a 1 gallon jug, or a 1 or 2 gallon pail? My future MIL said I could use the mother from some cider vinegar, the natural unfiltered stuff, like she gave my wife. Maybe shake it up, & use a small amount of that?

That's what I used to inoculate my first batch of cider vinegar. I made a very simple small batch of apple cider and then added the natural cider vinegar. Turned out great. Have another little batch of cider brewing now to kick off my nano-solera system experiment.

 

[Curtis2010]

(dup)

 

[Curtis2010]

I'd think you want the pail, for greater O2 exposure.

I think the pail too for same reason. So far Ive used all wide mouthed containers covered with a clean cloth. I put the lid or a plate over them looslely to keep the cloth from getting too funky over time (vinegar fermentation is very slow...think moths).

 

[Curtis2010]

I had a starter of Crooked Stave dregs that turned to vinegar, and I'd been putting off throwing it out, so last night I poured the sour liquid into a crock along with 6 bottles of brown porter I wasn't really loving (good taste, too thin), and a bit of the dregs from a bottle of Bragg's. Then I covered it with an old shirt.

It was pretty bubbly this morning. The pic below is right after mixing, last night.

Now we wait, I guess.

I doubt the bubbles you've got going on there are from acetabacteria fermentation. Ive not seen it yet anyway. Its a very slow fermentation so I would expect not. Maybe some other offgasing or woke up the yeast?

 

[burninator]

I doubt the bubbles you've got going on there are from acetabacteria fermentation. Ive not seen it yet anyway. Its a very slow fermentation so I would expect not. Maybe some other offgasing or woke up the yeast?

Oh, yeah, I'm certain of it. Some of it is residual foam (Porter was over-carbed a little). Some of it is probably the brett and lacto that was highly prevalent in the culture I pitched.

 

[BaylessBrewer]

Would the opening on my old Mr.Beer LBK be big enough to use for this?
I have a brown ale that I used CaraBrown in that I don't too much care for and a porter that I used the same Cara brown in that I'm also not happy with but I think they will work well for something like this

 

[ArcLight]

Would the opening on my old Mr.Beer LBK be big enough to use for this?

Yes.

But are you sure you want to do that? I use my old Mr Beer fermentor for small batches.

Once you infect it with Acetobacter, it's no longer safe to use for anything else.

 

[Curtis2010]

Oh, yeah, I'm certain of it. Some of it is residual foam (Porter was over-carbed a little). Some of it is probably the brett and lacto that was highly prevalent in the culture I pitched.

Brett, lacto, and aceta...result should be interesting. Any idea of the ABV of these beers?

 

[burninator]

Brett, lacto, and aceta...result should be interesting. Any idea of the ABV of these beers?

It was a brown porter, around 4.5%, fermented with Nottingham. The starter wort was from Crooked Stave, so definitely had a healthy pitch of brett, probably lacto and pedio. It overflowed and got infected. It was about a cup of DME-based vinegar when I pitched it.

 

[dyqik]

I make vinegar- wine vinegar, cider vinegar, malt vinegar.

I've found that my favorite malt vinegar isn't my favorite beer. But what makes the best vinegar seems to be starters- without hops, and with about 4% ABV or so. The hops tend to carry over the "bitter" when I use leftover wort (which I then ferment) but an unhopped wort that was fermented out has turned out great.

I started with the mother from a bottle of Bragg's apple cider vinegar.

I've been experimenting with the same in a quart mason jar covered with paper towel to allow oxygen in - do you get a funky pellicle on top? My parents visited a sniffed it, and are convinced that something went bad with it.

 

[burninator]

Here's my brown porter, tonight, before I hit it with a whisk.

View attachment 1434411855412.jpg

 

[slym2none]

"Lightning in a bottle."

 

[Yooper]

I never got a pellicle in mine- just the thick jellylike mother of vinegar.