Making Traditional rice Wine. Cheap, Fun, and Different

[Lac]

How do you do this? Is it the same method in making your own kome koji?

Yep, same method. Sorry that took so long, my phone's not getting "poked" right when I get a reply or something

As an aside, as others have noticed downstream, works great for sweet potatoes, regular potatoes, and just about anything else. The aspergillus will let you ferment just about anything with its happy enzyme arsenal.

Apparently, a Japanese biochem PhD. I met once told me that in the old days they used to also use the same black mold we freak out about (another aspergillus) for distilling, since many groups, including the USDA, claim that aflatoxins don't distill over.

Again, sorry for the slow reply >.<

 

[KevinM]

Admittedly this thread has always bothered me, because sake most commonly known as rice wine in the us is made differently. I usually call this stuff Korean rice wine to differentiate it from Japanese rice wine.

Sake is made with koji (the enyme producing mold and yeast.) This process also has more specific procedures and steps involving koji additions. Most sake we see is more scientific perfectobrew.

Korean and chinese fermented rice wine uses the rice ball method. This is usually called lao zao, or jiuqu. Or cheongju or makkgeoli. The riceball is then called nuruk. Its more... throw it all together than sake/rice wine is.

The flavors are incredibly different. Thankfully, people know sake as sake these days. But I'd say its kinda like sake for people who don't know.

 

[Lac]

I started my second batch yesterday and tasted a little of the early fermentation today. Just a tinge of sourness and sweetness to the rice. Which makes me wonder, what about this method of brewing rice wine leads to the sourness, a flavor I rather like but never detect in commercial sake?

Well, there are many varieties of sour sake in Japan that have concominant lactobacillus infections. Basically, the master sake brewers create a balance, or use a sour mash method (as with moto, if I remember correctly). I've had some more sour "amazake" style wines, and some makkgeoli (korean "fresh" unpasteurized rice wine) had the same tartness. If the lactobacillus is already present in the rice ball, it'll be harder to prevent the sourness. Lactobacillus is inhibited by the presence of lactic acid, so some use that method. Other's claim you can use lysozyme. All of these things are hard to regulate still sometimes, especially in the case of sake if you are growing your own koji (rice ball equivalent-ish).

Alternatively, Chinese rice wine usually begins, in oversimplified and overgeneralized terms (sorry, my chinese friends would kill me if I didn't say that), with the rice cake you see, which is just a mixture of all the fungus and bacterial cultures from a previously inoculated batch of rice that is allowed to grow. This, in turn, is used like a starter to help achieve some form of balance, is what they told me when I asked there. Unfortunately, quality control isn't always so great from batch to batch sometimes, so you get decent variation in quality of product even within the same brand of rice balls (at least in my experience with side by side mason jars).
The Vietnamese do the same general process, but I've had better luck with some of their brands that are made out in California. They use these to not only make wine, but also several desserts with the black sticky rice (which some noted earlier did not fall apart). They treat it like a semi sweet rice pudding-esque dish. It's a real pain to get it right, and my friends keep claiming mine comes out "too alcoholic"....>.<. Just can't please some people, eh?
Sorry, think I ADD'd out there. Hope that helps on the sour question. It's lactobacillus with 99% certainty, and I'd bet (assuming your technique is immaculately sterile) its already present in the ball. On the other hand, I've had lactobacillus work its way into some of my koji/aspergillus growing experiments where I knew the fresh rice was sterile....these kind of things just lend themselves to that stuff. I think thats why the chinese started distilling lost of this stuff. That acetone smell adds that "traditional" flavor (seriously).

Good brewing!

P.S.
If you get really into it, there are some papers I remember popping up on Google Scholar (great tool, not as obvious on google nowadays) regarding the mixtures of fungi and bacteria that you find in the wines from different asian nations, which contribute to the differences in aroma and taste.

 

[WesleyS]

Admittedly this thread has always bothered me, because sake most commonly known as rice wine in the us is made differently. I usually call this stuff Korean rice wine to differentiate it from Japanese rice wine.

Sake is made with koji (the enyme producing mold and yeast.) This process also has more specific procedures and steps involving koji additions. Most sake we see is more scientific perfectobrew.

Korean and chinese fermented rice wine uses the rice ball method. This is usually called lao zao, or jiuqu. Or cheongju or makkgeoli. The riceball is then called nuruk. Its more... throw it all together than sake/rice wine is.

The flavors are incredibly different. Thankfully, people know sake as sake these days. But I'd say its kinda like sake for people who don't know.

Have you read this thread? Or do you just want to argue about wording or be bothered by something? I've read the thread and nowhere does the OP or others who have made this wine, including myself, have ever said this is Sake or like Sake. It's always been presented as what it is.

 

[choosybeggar]

Thanks Lac.

 

[Lac]

Glad I could help.

 

[KevinM]

Oh, I've read through it from time to time. The wording doesn't matter too much, its just like like... lager vs ale, in a way, thats all. But Lac really described it better than I about the difference and the flavor components.

 

[WesleyS]

Oh, I've read through it from time to time. The wording doesn't matter too much, its just like like... lager vs ale, in a way, thats all. But Lac really described it better than I about the difference and the flavor components.

It's been talked about a couple times about the difference between this and Sake. In fact, there's a thread about making Sake here. I think there's a link to it in the first post. I'd like to try making Sake one day. This stuff is just so much easier.

 

[trbig]

So mine came out VERY sour. Undrinkably sour. I've heard "Sweet" many times, but the sour comment is coming up more and more. Is everyone's a bit sour?

 

[sonofgrok]

So mine came out VERY sour. Undrinkably sour. I've heard "Sweet" many times, but the sour comment is coming up more and more. Is everyone's a bit sour?

I don't get sour from mine really at all. There is definitely a "bite" but I would describe it as more of a wine bite. No sour.

 

[trbig]

I don't get sour from mine really at all. There is definitely a "bite" but I would describe it as more of a wine bite. No sour.

I wonder if it's like mentioned and comes from the yeast balls used. Which place are you getting yours from? If this batch turns out sour, even though I went with a 1/1 rice/water ratio, I'll try another yeast ball. So far, the yeast are liking this batch. This is the 4th night of bubbling the air lock in my fermenting bin.

 

[KevinM]

Yeah, sonofgrok has it linked for sake.

I get various flavors, but I've always attributed it to one of the other fermenting things in my tiny apartment. Or the fish sauce that I store the yeast balls next to.

 

[bottlebomber]

I don't get sour from mine really at all. There is definitely a "bite" but I would describe it as more of a wine bite. No sour.

Yes, the acidity is very similar to wine. No more sour than a glass of wine.

 

[Tamarlane]

So mine came out VERY sour. Undrinkably sour. I've heard "Sweet" many times, but the sour comment is coming up more and more. Is everyone's a bit sour?

My first batch came out mouth-puckeringly sour. It was lacto though I am sure. You may have an infection. Fingers crossed for my second batch, should be ready this weekend. I didn't stir this one and used less water

 

[lakedawgs]

My first batch is done!! From roughly 12-13 cups of uncooked, soaked rice, I yielded about 7 pints of wine. Taste is good, slightly alcoholic.
My wife wants me to back sweeten it. We don't want a 'sweet wine', just something to take a bit of the bite, which is not bad, away.
Let's here your suggestions on what you flavored your wine with.
Thanks

 

[GunnyB]

I harvested my batch of rice wine made with Calrose last night and it turned out great. The first time I used a ratio of 1:2 rice/water and it was just way too sour, but I drank it anyways. This go around I used a 1:1 ratio and the difference was night and day. This has the perfect blend of sour/sweet with just a nice dose of alcohol that warmed my tummy. The drier ratio also made for much easier straining of liquid. The 1:1 with 2 cups dry Calrose yielded a pint of yellowish goodness that went into a Grolsch style bottle. Wednesday I was be harvesting my Thai/Jasmine batch and can't wait to see/taste/feel how it turns out.

Anyhow, those who get sour batches might want to try a drier mix before trying to change anything else.

 

[choosybeggar]

I don't get sour from mine really at all. There is definitely a "bite" but I would describe it as more of a wine bite. No sour.

It's a nice sourness. Think dry white wine.

 

[Leadgolem]

Ok, I got all the grains mixed with the crushed yeast balls. I poured the rice out from each jar it was left to cool in into a 5 gallon food grade bucket. I did have to do some persuading with most of them as they wanted to clump. Then broke up any clumps in the bucket with a fork. Sprinkled the yeast ball powder on top, and tossed the rice in the bucket to coat everything. The bucket and the fork where washed between grain types.

If I don't get anything else out of it, I did learn how to get an extremely even distribution of powdered rice yeast ball. For most of the batches every single grain ended up dusted with yeast ball powder.

The exception was the japanese sweet rice. It pretty much turned into a giant rice bogey after cooling. I smeared it in the bottom of the bucket, and coated it with the powdered rice yeast ball.

Then everything went back in it's original cooling/soaking quart jar. The basmati, long grain white, and jasmine rice all got tamped with a fork so they would fit back in the quart jars after the grains had been broken up in the bucket. That was not necessary with the wheat berries, brown rice, or Japanese sweet rice. I used paper towels instead of a cloth in the the jar threads.

The first picture is the Japanese sweet rice soaking while I was starting to cook the other rice types. In the picture with the paper towels installed, the jars are arranged from least to most sticky. From left to right. The final picture is of them all tucked in on a box lid, and covered in a spare towel. I will check on them in 7, 14, and 21 days.

 

[EndlessPurple]

Been reading through this trying to find a consensus on the seperating finished batch. I saw one post that mentioned the clearer liquid was smoother and another that the batch was sweeter if you did not split the two parts.

I just harvested my first batch into a carboy (about 1/2 gal of liquid) and now it is in the fridge. It has seperated some, and I am trying to decide if I should let it seperate or mix it back together when serving. Is there any sort of consensus on this?

Thanks

 

[Leadgolem]

Been reading through this trying to find a consensus on the seperating finished batch. I saw one post that mentioned the clearer liquid was smoother and another that the batch was sweeter if you did not split the two parts.

I just harvested my first batch into a carboy (about 1/2 gal of liquid) and now it is in the fridge. It has seperated some, and I am trying to decide if I should let it seperate or mix it back together when serving. Is there any sort of consensus on this?

Thanks

I believe the preference of the majority is to mix the bottle before serving. I prefer the cleared liquid, though my rice wine was made with regular long grain white rice. That kind of rice has been reported to produce a wine of an inferior quality.

 

[EndlessPurple]

Thanks

 

[Ostomo517]

I did 2-4 cup batches yesterday and brewed a wheat beer. Took the last running and thought what the hell and through a yeast ball in with it. Started fermenting within a few hours. Well see how it turns out.

Whats this lookin like?

 

[zeapo]

So I scraped the green fuzzy mold off the top of the rice cake inside 1 of my jars last night,( first time I have opened it at 8 days) and when I opened the jar it smelled very very alcoholic like rice vodka. Lol. Smells awesome, Even though I just scraped the mold off the top. So I pushed the rice under the level of the liquid alcohol to try and sanitize the top surface. I'm still going to try this when it's finished, if it doesn't keep getting moldy. My other 2 jars seem to be looking just fine with about an inch of liquid under the rice. I haven't opened those 2 jars. Hopefully I won't have to open the other again either. I'm at 9 days as of today, fingers crossed.

 

[pabloj13]

Yes! I think it was the water ratio for me too. Just stirred it after five days and it is sweet like candy. It never got this way before with a 3:1. Now at 1:1 the rice is still in individual chunks and it smells sweet and fragrant!

 

[zeapo]

I'm sure this was covered, but did we get a definite answer on the best way to tell when it is finished?

 

[trbig]

I'm on the 5th day and my 18 cup batch is still bubbling away in the vapor lock. Mine has a slight banana smell to it? I used the jasmine rice with a 1/1 ratio.

 

[bottlebomber]

I'm sure this was covered, but did we get a definite answer on the best way to tell when it is finished?

When it has been 3 weeks, and it is deliciously alcoholic.

 

[Arrheinous]

Three weeks is definitely a good amount of time for it. I found that the rice and the liquid reseparate at this point.

 

[Jeebas]

So are you saying that there is little to no bearing on whether the rice:

#1 Is floating
#2 Has sunk to the bottom, leaving free standing liquid on top
#3 Neither, liquid level is still below rice mass

?

At 2 weeks 2 days here I'm am still at #3, just curious.

 

[user 83772]

Has anyone weighed the rice/yeast mixture prior to fermentation, and then compared it to the weight of the remaining starch mass once the 21 day brew period is over? I'm curious what kind of rice > rice wine conversion factor folks are getting.