Making Cider with 8 Different Yeasts - Which Should I Supersize to 5 Gallons?

[Chalkyt]

You are probably aware that many of us are following your adventure with great interest.

I am intrigued that you rate AC4 as a winner and AB1 as a loser since the Fermentis profiles seem similar and I would have expected the results to be similar. Please tell us more. FYI, in case you haven't seen it, I attached a paper covering these yeasts to Madscientist451's post of last Saturday. This was written by Fermentis' Technical Manager, Fruit Fermentation, and although probably originally in French and translated into English, it is "followable".

Please keep reporting about what is happening because I would like to try these new yeasts and value your input.

 

[McMullan]

My concern here, which may or may not be an issue, is that you used juice from fresh pressed orchard apples. Not that you wouldn't want to, of course, but there is a good chance your results are confounded by the presence of wild yeast. Although I can't stand 'cider' made from pasturised, filtered supermarket apple juice, it might be worth trying to confirm at least some of your results using that kind of juice. Sorry if I misunderstood your methodology. I didn't read the whole thread.

 

[Cogswell]

You are probably aware that many of us are following your adventure with great interest.

I'm aware. When I decided to make cider this season I hoped to find a thread like this one already waiting for me to read. It wasn't here so I decided to make one.

I am intrigued that you rate AC4 as a winner and AB1 as a loser since the Fermentis profiles seem similar and I would have expected the results to be similar. Please tell us more. FYI, in case you haven't seen it, I attached a paper covering these yeasts to Madscientist451's post of last Saturday. This was written by Fermentis' Technical Manager, Fruit Fermentation, and although probably originally in French and translated into English, it is "followable".

Winners and Losers were chosen by me based on the poll in this thread and my own opinions. Since this is my first time using any of these yeasts, my opinions are based solely on what I have read here on HBT and elsewhere.

The winners got 5 gallon batches and the losers got 2.5 gallon batches.

Please keep reporting about what is happening because I would like to try these new yeasts and value your input.

I will continue to post as the adventure continues!

My concern here, which may or may not be an issue, is that you used juice from fresh pressed orchard apples. Not that you wouldn't want to, of course, but there is a good chance your results are confounded by the presence of wild yeast. Although I can't stand 'cider' made from pasturised, filtered supermarket apple juice, it might be worth trying to confirm at least some of your results using that kind of juice. Sorry if I misunderstood your methodology. I didn't read the whole thread.

I added potassium metabisulfate when the juice was fresh out of my supplier's walk-in cooler.

The 150ppm of free SO2 generated by the potassium metabisulfate suppresses all wild yeast and microbes. It sort of puts them to sleep by blocking their metabolism.

(The amount of potassium metabisulfate required varies based on the PH of the apple cider.)

The yeasts we use to make cider massively out-compete the wild yeasts and bacteria so no worries about them once you pitch your yeast.

I was able to verify that there wasn't any wild fermentation when I observed the juice prior to pitching. Note that the cider had been sitting around at 68F for 48 hours before I pitched my yeasts. There was no sign of CO2 at that point. No bubbles. No CO2 smell. Nor were there any funky spoiled smells. The only thing I could smell was sweet sweet apple cider and the stink of SO2.

I have to say that there is no greater smell than 35 gallons of room temperature apple cider. It didn't smell like much when it was cold. Once it warmed up it was a whole different story. My entire basement was permeated by the most delicious apple smell. It was absolute heaven!

Unfortunately, it attracted every fruit fly in the county.

You'd think all that SO2 would harm the yeasts we choose to use but let me tell you AS-2 took off like a rocket after only five hours. It was closely followed by AB-1 approximately twelve hours later.

I'll post comments on fermentation activity for all yeasts after primary fermentation has finished.

 

[McMullan]

I'm aware. When I decided to make cider this season I hoped to find a thread like this one already waiting for me to read. It wasn't here so I decided to make one.



Winners and Losers were chosen by me based on the poll in this thread and my own opinions. Since this is my first time using any of these yeasts, my opinions are based solely on what I have read here on HBT and elsewhere.

The winners got 5 gallon batches and the losers got 2.5 gallon batches.



I will continue to post as the adventure continues!



I added potassium metabisulfate when the juice was fresh out of my supplier's walk-in cooler.

The 150ppm of free SO2 generated by the potassium metabisulfate suppresses all wild yeast and microbes. It sort of puts them to sleep by blocking their metabolism.

(The amount of potassium metabisulfate required varies based on the PH of the apple cider.)

The yeasts we use to make cider massively out-compete the wild yeasts and bacteria so no worries about them once you pitch your yeast.

I was able to verify that there wasn't any wild fermentation when I observed the juice prior to pitching. Note that the cider had been sitting around at 68F for 48 hours before I pitched my yeasts. There was no sign of CO2 at that point. No bubbles. No CO2 smell. Nor were there any funky spoiled smells. The only thing I could smell was sweet sweet apple cider and the stink of SO2.

I have to say that there is no greater smell than 35 gallons of room temperature apple cider. It didn't smell like much when it was cold. Once it warmed up it was a whole different story. My entire basement was permeated by the most delicious apple smell. It was absolute heaven!

Unfortunately, it attracted every fruit fly in the county.

You'd think all that SO2 would harm the yeasts we choose to use but let me tell you AS-2 took off like a rocket after only five hours. It was closely followed by AB-1 approximately twelve hours later.

I'll post comments on fermentation activity for all yeasts after primary fermentation has finished.

Yes, I agree it's more likely the pitched yeast population overwhelms the wild yeast community, but there's no guarantee of that happening consistently across the batches here or even at all. A kind of ecological succession is often observed during fermentation, even when one yeast strain is pitched at relatively high density. The potassium metabisulphate/SO2 is only going to slow the wild yeast temporarily. I'd be a bit wary of assuming the apparent lack of any signs of metabolic activity prior to pitching necessarily translates into no biological activity. The lag phase period, for example, rarely shows any signs of metabolic activity, but it takes several hours for the yeast to remodel its proteome to exploit the new sugary conditions. It's possible metabolites from wild yeast at low density push above the detection threshold. Not necessarily a negative character. It might add some pleasant complexity interacting with elements of the pitched yeast profile. If you always use the same apples from the same orchard there's not really much to worry about. It just means others might not get a comparable experience when pitching one of these commercial cider yeasts.

On fruit flies, it's important to prepare traps before the little buggers arrive, in my experience. I'm sure they come out of the woodwork. They're attracted more strongly to yeast pheromones than aromatic compounds given off by fruit. They're kind of yeast taxis and provide the main form of yeast transport, in either direction. I find traps with a little spent yeast slurry more effective.

I've discovered eggs laid firmly on the inside walls of spouts of FV taps and even serving taps so now routinely cover them up during the fruit fly season.

Edit: did you aerate the juice for WLP775 and WY4766?

 

[Cogswell]

Edit: did you aerate the juice for WLP775 and WY4766?

Yes. I'm treating every yeast the same, other than batch size.

I stirred all of the cider vigorously before pitching to aerate and outgas SO2.

I didn't stir in the yeast after pitching. I dumped it in and let it do what it wanted to do. The dry yeasts floated on top. The liquid yeasts sunk into the cider.

Why did you ask if those two yeasts were aerated?

 

[McMullan]

Why did you ask if those two yeasts were aerated?

Dry yeast are conditioned with oxygen prior to the drying process and they require no aeration when pitching. Wet yeast require aeration when pitching to ensure efficient growth after pitching.

 

[Cogswell]

Dry yeast are conditioned with oxygen prior to the drying process and they require no aeration when pitching. Wet yeast require aeration when pitching to ensure efficient growth after pitching.

Cool. I didn't know that.

 

[Kees]

I am surprised to read you are having problems with fruit flies.
I use these waterlocks: waterslot slangmodel rode kap – De Wijnmaker
Never seen a fruit fly in it.

 

[Cogswell]

I meant to talk about my fermentation vessels earlier in the thread. I use undyed HDPE buckets with soft HDPE lids. The lids aren't gasketed but they seal very well. I can put a half gallon of water in a bucket, attach lid, and invert the bucket without water leaking out.

I use three piece airlocks with the little black rubber grommets. I push the airlock down until the grommet expands to completely fill the hole in the lid. I use punches to put perfect burr free holes in my lids so the grommets seal well.

Back to the scheduled program...

Primary fermentation is complete. During primary, I observed fermentation activity every once in a while. I wish I had been more regimented about it. My timing was poor, more or less when I happened to walk past the buckets.

I rated activity like this:
0 - no visible bubbles
1 - slight bubbling
2 - moderate bubbling
3 - vigorous bubbling, usually with StarSan foaming out of airlock

I recorded my observations and made graphs.

You'll notice some graphs don't end at zero. I wasn't able to observe the buckets at the very end. They were all at zero when I got back to them.

Four days after pitch I was concerned about Cider House Select and WLP775. I though they failed. I pulled the airlocks and sniffed. Both buckets smelled like CO2 and fermented cider...extra yeasty hard cider.

I replaced the airlocks and let everything sit another four days. I pulled the airlocks and replaced them with plugs that seal the lids.

At this point, I can see all eight buckets have cleared beautifully. As I said earlier, my buckets are undyed. I can see through them with decent lighting. Trub is very cleanly separated. Looks like I don't need additional clearing agents.

The plan from this point is nebulous. Eventually, I'll rack into kegs, stabilize with potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfate, then force carbonate.

I have a lot of new-to-me used kegs to clean and overhaul before I can rack.

How long would you all wait before racking? I know opinions vary about letting cider sit on trub.

 

[Kees]

How about malolactic fermentation before kegging and stabilizing?

 

[Cogswell]

How about malolactic fermentation before kegging and stabilizing?

Never say never...but I don't plan to do it even though it would be appropriate for WLP775 and possibly other yeasts.

 

[Cogswell]

How long would you guys wait before doing an initial taste test? I get impatient every time I walk past the fermenters.

 

[Kees]

The longer you wait the better it gets
So soon and without malolactic fermentation it will probably not be very nice.

 

[Maylar]

There's differing opinions on that. Some people taste every time they check gravity. I don't like the taste of yeast, so I wait until primary is finished before taking my first taste. If something went wrong during the fermenting I figure I would have smelled it.

(Yes, I sniff the airlock a lot )

 

[Fleischmeister]

How long would you all wait before racking? I know opinions vary about letting cider sit on trub.
[/QUOTE]

I rack at 3-4 weeks if fermentation is done (it is). Then depending on soon you want to drink it, I let it age at room temp in the keg for another two weeks or so. I do add CO2 a few times to make sure the keg stays sealed.

 

[akeensurfer2004]

Hi Cogswell, I read this experiment with excitement, can you remember the results from two-years ago? A quick write-up would be highly appreciated! Thanks, Matt