Making an Ale taste like a Lager

[Tall_Yotie]

Howdy folks.

I am wanting to make a beer that is similar to a Mexican Lager using Ale yeast, but still could pass for a lager. I have temperature control, brew all grain, and so forth. I just don't want to deal with the hassle and time involved with a lager. But I still want to make a crisp, refreshing, clean beer that comes off as a lager.

If I took a Lager recipe, used Kolsch yeast, fermented on the lower end of the yeast's temperature range, and cold crashed to clarify, do you figure that would get it across and potentially fool my drinkers?

Or is there really no good way to emulate that Lager style without actually lagering?

 

[jtratcliff]

You could also use saflager 34/70 at ale temps... seems to be a versatile yeast:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2017/03/09/ye...us-05-vs-saflager-w-3470-exbeeriment-results/

 

[JordanKnudson]

I've done the kolsch-to-serve-to-lager-drinkers thing, and I've done the 34/70 at ale temp thing. Both have come out well. For what it's worth, my Coors-swilling FIL loved the kolsch and completely turned his back on his Coors until the keg kicked about 2 weeks later. He hasn't yet had a chance to try the 34/70 lager.

 

[Iseneye]

Brewing a lager is easy. You have temperature control so could use 34/70 at 10 degrees. You don't need to wait for 4 months of cold conditioning.

But the simple answer would be Kolsch yeast.

 

[Sadu]

Another thing to look at is pressure fermenting. I'm finding that normal gravity lagers are great drinking at 3 weeks, and I'm not doing anything special to hurry the process.

 

[Smellyglove]

If you're after the nuances, I'd say it can't be done. Ref german beers. If you just want "a lager", then it can be done, and it will taste fine (enough). I've tasted 3470 beers with the "quick-lager"-method, and they can not compare to a traditional cold fermentation done with 3470, or any other yeast. For a person on the street, they probably taste more or less "the same", but for a person looking at differences, they don't taste the same. But I know of several people who do a warm 3470 and say it tastes good, I've only tasted quick fermentation.

 

[mattdee1]

I've made many an ale with Kolsch yeast and basic grain bill that have been greatly appreciated by BMC swill-o-philes in my family.

Honestly, I find that most swill-o-philes don't even know the difference between a lager and an ale anyway so the nuances don't really matter. The required traits seem to be:

- light color (because, you know, every single beer darker than 8 SRM is inherently "heavy" right? )
- little to no noticeable hop aroma -- usually 25 or so IBU with no hops added after 30min
- 4-5% ABV
- reasonably clear

 

[cubalz]

What about using White Labs WLP001 California Ale liquid yeast and ferment at 63F? This is what I use and it is super clean with a neutral yeast flavor.

 

[dyqik]

If you have good temperature control, you can do the Brulosophy rapid lager process with lager yeast, and turn around a lager in 21 days.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Thank you all for the info! That experiment of the different fermentation temps was a really good read. This is starting to look like one of those "we do it this way because we've always done it that way" things. I am now planning to do a lager yeast that uses higher temps for its range (WLP800 I think), cold crash it, hold there for a few days, and then transfer to keg. May also do a simple Kolsch yeast run of the same grain bill and compare the two.

Thanks again!

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you all for the info! That experiment of the different fermentation temps was a really good read. This is starting to look like one of those "we do it this way because we've always done it that way" things. I am now planning to do a lager yeast that uses higher temps for its range (WLP800 I think), cold crash it, hold there for a few days, and then transfer to keg. May also do a simple Kolsch yeast run of the same grain bill and compare the two.

Thanks again!

If you do the comparison, please let us know about the outcome!

 

[casualbrewer]

Remember that not all lager yeasts can handle elevated temps. 34/70 is a very unique yeast in this regard. I have tried using wlp800 at slightly higher temps and got a butter bomb.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Remember that not all lager yeasts can handle elevated temps. 34/70 is a very unique yeast in this regard. I have tried using wlp800 at slightly higher temps and got a butter bomb.

Perhaps WLP830 is a closer match to W-34/70.

 

[thehaze]

I would vote for a Kolsch yeast.

 

[IslandLizard]

When using Kolsch yeast I would avoid WY2565, it's a terrible flocculator. It simply won't clear unless you lager it for 3 months. And even then...

Use WLP029 or one of the other yeasters' offerings.

 

[mongoose33]

I brew a dark lager with 940 and I love it. I use an accelerated fermentation schedule like so, a variation of the method Marshall Schott describes on the Brulosophy website:

1. I pitch at about 71 degrees, using a starter. The whole starter goes in (only 1 liter, not two). BTW, this is not what most people do, but Chris White in his "Yeast" book notes that it is another way to do it. Essentially, I'm allowing the 1-liter starter to grow to a 2-liter equivalent before the temp drops too much. It works. No crashing the starter, it goes right into the fermenter.

2. I then start the wort cooling down to 50 degrees.

3. I hold the fermenting beer at 50 degrees until it is 50 percent attenuated. I then start ramping up the temperature 4 degrees every 12 hours until I get to 66 degrees. I hold it there until fermentation is complete, figure about 3-4 more days.

4. I then start ramping down to 32 degrees, 66 - 60 - 54 - 48 - 42 - 32. I do that at roughly 12-hour intervals.

That gets me down to 32 degrees in about 9-10 days. I let it sit there for a week or so, then keg it. Maybe a bit more conditioning in the keg, and good to go. I probably could keg it once it gets to 32, but I've let it sit there for a bit.

I have this very beer in my fermenter now, and I'm 11 days after brewing and it's sitting at 32 degrees. I would probably think about kegging it this weekend, but my keezer is full and the other ferm chamber is also full of fermenting beer, so I'll just let it sit in the fermenter another week.

*****************

This is not what you asked, but I brew a SMASH with Maris Otter malt and Styrian Celeia hops that is clean and crisp. If I didn't know it was an ale, I might be fooled into thinking it is a lager instead. With that one I use S-04. The only downside is it takes a little conditioning to get it there. At 2 weeks it has a sharp taste to it that rounds out by 3-4 weeks.

 

[Miraculix]

Tried similar stuff with safale 04 as well and failed miserably from the Lager point of view ...

.. From the ale point of view I created a fruity, a bit clovy dry ale with a beautiful head and some kind of creamy mouthfeel that got me addicted to it. Went very low on hops, basically only bittering additions and around 20 ibus so there is nowhere to hide, but it is just delicious.

I do not know what type of beer I created.. It is quite brown, dry, fruity aleish with low ibus.

Maybe old school northern English ale?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I've heard an extended cold crash will bring out lager characteristics in an ale. Not sure how that could be but I've heard it more than once

 

[mongoose33]

I've heard an extended cold crash will bring out lager characteristics in an ale. Not sure how that could be but I've heard it more than once

Interesting...with the SMASH I note above (MO + Styrian Celiea), it has a somewhat unpleasant sharp taste at about 2 weeks but smooths out nicely by 4 weeks. That's kegged and in the keezer just sitting under pressure.

That SMASH is liked by a lot of BMC-type drinkers, and to me it presents a lot like a lager even though it's an ale fermented at ale temps (64, usually). Someday I may test it on lager drinkers, see if they agree it presents that way. It's a nice crisp drinker which is why it reminds me of a lager.

 

[dmtaylor]

Wyeast 1007 is the only thing you need.

In my experience, W-34/70 fermented warm sucks.

 

[Rush]

Wyeast 1007 is the only thing you need.

In my experience, W-34/70 fermented warm sucks.

Different strokes, I suppose. I just finished fermenting an Oktoberfest with 34/70 @ 65f and it's turned out fantastic and definitely has the "clean lager" character that I was aiming for.

 

[TheHopfather]

I've brewed a couple of batches with 34/70 @ 66F and they came out fine. 34/70 never seems to want to clear for me so you still need to lager for a bit. But they taste like a lager.

 

[lump42]

I've done a DoppleMock with Nottingham yeast and came out very clean. I used ice water to chill to 50F, then fermented in picnic cooler full of water. The cooler helps keep the water cold. I just switched out 2-2 20-oz frozen bottles every 8 hours for the first 3 days. It kept nicely at 58-60F in a 70F closet.