Making a sour

[EaseTN]

I do extract kettle sours. I do a 10-15 minute pasteurization boil with my grains (1.5lb Pilsen dme, 1.5lb Bavarian dme), then I cool to 90 and pitch lacto.

Lacto is very sensitive to Hops so I prefer this order rather than hopping prior to sour.
I use an inkbird temp controller tied to heating pads wrapped around my kettle. This effectively keeps my temp at 90.

After the appropriate souring period, I brew as usual.

Almost exactly what I do except AG and I use a sous vide stick/water bath rather than the heating pads.

 

[fendersrule]

Jag, you'll love it! Kettle sours are easy and taste really good.

I pretty much used RPH's method, and I get to try it for the first time on this Saturday. Here is my recipe, which just adds a bit of tangerine undertones:
https://brewgr.com/recipe/67906/tangerine-wheat-kettle-sour-ag-5g-recipe?public=true

Imagine a blue-moon, but that's slightly soured...

Create your mash as usual. Boil it for 15 minutes, since you're not adding hops this go around, this enough to kill anything unwanted...don't forget to put in your wort chiller right when the boil starts....unlike what you'd do for a 60 minute boil.

Cool it to 90, set it some place where it keep the warmest. For a 7 gallon mash, I pitched 8 lacto capsules (amazon is a good place for pure-lacto capsules). I covered it with saran-wrap type stuff. I soured mine for 44 hours, and the "tart" level is significant to definitely taste, but it's not harsh nor would I call it a "strong" sour. Now that I have a pH tool, I can actually measure the souring to make it "more" sour if I wish by waiting longer than 44 hours. Keeping lacto warmer will also speed up the process, but mine did fine in room temps.

Once it's soured, then you make beer per normal. You don't need a 60 minute boil at all. 15 minutes, even with a very very low hop addition (think 2-5 total IBUs) is all you need to sanitize. Nothing wrong with adding a couple IBUs as it helps against infections in the primary. Pitch yeast and let er rip.

 

[RPh_Guy]

^ That is definitely not what I suggest doing...

 

[isomerization]

^ That is definitely not what I suggest doing...

Lol was reading that and thinking the same thing, scroll down and boom! Haha

 

[fendersrule]

Well, similar other than I kill the lacto and add some IBUs.

Either way is good..I'm making a sour cider right now in a 1/2 gallon, and pitched second generation ale yeast and 1 capsule of lacto into at the same time....it's been fermenting for 4 weeks this far.

I've been super impressed with ale-yeast ciders. Will be interesting to see what lacto does to a cider.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Well, similar other than I kill the lacto and add some IBUs.

The post-sour method I suggest allows much greater yeast expression, added Lacto complexity, easier brewing process, and less risk of contamination. Not really all that similar with regard to process or flavor.

You used a flavorful weissbier yeast in your sour but when tasting it you thought it was a clean strain (no banana or clove flavor) ...because it was pre-soured.

If you want the flavor of whatever yeast you are pitching like hefeweizen, Belgian, etc rather than a clean lager-like profile, consider using a post-sour method.

FYI, Lacto won't make cider sour when co-pitched.

 

[fendersrule]

But not all sours should have expressive yeast. In-fact, most sours I like there isn't apparent "yeastiness" in the taste. Acidic tart should be first and foremost that should dominate, the rest should happen on the back end of the throat IMO. I don't consider either approach worse or better. I can buy in that co-pitching is easier, faster, and allows yeast expression, but that's just a different style. Certainly the easier way to do it.

Personally, I want to take the yeast out of the equation during souring and start playing with the science rather than to just "get what I get when it's done". With yeast out, I can learn how to make my sour really really sour by monitoring PH levels. I can then adjust if need be (pitch more lacto, adjust temps, or wait longer). I'm not sure how easy that to do when yeast and sour has already been pitched together...it seems like I lose more control that way. I also lose control on temperatures. Lacto performs best at at least 90F....though it can go to 70F but it slows down which means longer wait times. Most ale yeast do their best in the low 60s. There's a discrepancy in temps there. Not only that, but say goodbye to any sort of bittering (hops) if you co-pitch. One thing that will make yeast more expressive is if you are co-pitching when the wort is 90F...that will definitely bring out "yeastiness", maybe that is influencing what you're tasting too?

Maybe the "sourness" doesn't matter because it will "stall out" regardless if it's co-pitched or not after two days.

So yeah, all good. I suppose I didn't adhere to your post-souring method (maybe it was someone else on this thread). In theory, they each have advantages. btw, the guy at HBS said that the yeast I used is "neutral" regardless on what the profile says.

Technically, no tasting is accurate until fermentation is complete, carbonation is complete, and it's say in the fridge for several days, and more than 4Oz of it has been drank. So I'm still on hold for the true report!

BTW, do you think I could use my PH meter still on my finished beer and would the pH be accurate enough to tell me what I let it get down to in the kettle? Edit: I don't think so. The Co2 affects pH.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I didn't say one method is superior, I was just making clear that you did not use the method I suggest.
Relax and have a homebrew!

I've made pre-sours with and without killing the Lacto and I've made post-sours. I've used either boil hops (in kettle sours), dry hops, hop tea, or no hops at all. They're all good, but different.
I'm simply suggesting a safe and easy method to make a nice flavorful sour beer based on my experience and extensive reading. WLP644 (my go-to) produces a great tropical pineapple-mango ester profile; it doesn't taste "yeasty" -- rather it's fruity without coming across as fruit juice.

For those folks interested in post-souring or co-souring:
1. Sour taste can be controlled just as easily (FYI: Sourness is not controlled with Lacto pitch rate or souring temperature). Adding hops will stop souring if that's what you want. If you want more sourness you need to increase attentuation and tailor your water profile, as well as selecting a low-pH Lacto strain.
2. Low levels of bitterness are easy to add via dry hopping or hop tea.
3. It's not difficult to maintain comfortable yeast temperature. Even if you pick an ale yeast that likes low temp (under 65°F), you can safely increase it after a couple days of fermentation, like normal. Lacto plantarum is perfectly happy at these low temps.
4. There is no additional waiting time for co-souring. On the contrary, it's faster. You don't need the extra days at the beginning for a Lacto phase, and the Sacc fermentation is faster because the yeast has time to establish itself without being inhibited by high levels of acid.

Cheers!

Off-topic:
Lallemand says "Munich Classic is a Bavarian wheat beer strain [...]. It imparts the spicy and fruity aroma profile typical of German wheat beer styles."
It's about as far from "neutral" as possible. Be careful dealing with vendors who lie just to sell you something.

 

[cactusgarrett]

the guy at HBS said that the yeast I used is "neutral" regardless on what the profile says.

You need to find a new LHBS or not talk with that guy if they promote 1) that yeast being neutral, and 2) something 100% contradictory to what the manufacturer profile of their products states.

 

[fendersrule]

He was the reason I got into beer in the first place, and helped me grow overtime, so not going to happen. Turns out, it does taste neutral to me so far! Real taste test coming tomorrow.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Turns out, it does taste neutral to me so far!

It tastes neutral in this particular beer you made because it's pre-soured. The yeast is absolutely not neutral when it's not suppressed by acid.

It's like boiling Amarillo hops in a recipe for 60 minutes and then saying Amarillo hops have no flavor because there wasn't any hop flavor in that particular beer.

It's like you hitched a 10-ton trailer to the back of a race car and then say that make of race car is slow because it was slow in that particular test drive.

I'm not sure how else to explain this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization#Hasty_generalization

 

[isomerization]

#Dunning-Kruger

 

[fendersrule]

Regardless if it's pre or post soured, he said it's a neutral yeast. RPH, looking at your history, you are quite NEW, like I am, with some advanced aspects of brewing. This guy has made beer, cider, and sours for 40 years, and has used this yeast quite often.

I get what you're saying, and that's not the point I'm trying to make.

Have you, specifically, had experience with the Munich yeast? The answer is no, you have not. You go look at the specs and say "nope, can't be a neutral yeast". Specs are always, correct, right?

If you'd like, since I see him today, I will go in and inform him that he's a liar, and I can give him your number if you'd like to tell him it's not a neutral yeast. Your choice. How about you try it before assuming you know everything about it?

Please relax and have a homebrew. As-is, I probably will not return with my taste test results because I don't enjoy the discussion.

#isomerization = #patronizing

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

And boom goes the dynamite. This is why they won't let us out of the wild/sour forum. We will see what Jag's sour turns out like.

 

[fendersrule]

And I’m wrong, no matter what, but I taste banana and cloves at the very end, subtle.

Pre sour for me. I would use this yeast again without question.

 

[fendersrule]

Stuck in my Milwaukee Ph gauge for the hell of it, not expecting accuracy, and it's a 3.29 pH. Co2 will effect that reading. But still, no doubt, it's acidic. Love it! Girlfriend loves it.

The banana and clove sticks on your throat after the sip, and when the the saliva comes back up that's when you get the hint. To me, that's where I'd want any yeast whatsoever to impact my taste with a sour. It's my GF's beer to be be honest (and she hates "yeast" taste of all kinds). I was the assistant and mentor, and she drank that $hit like no tomorrow. I think that's a success.

The Co2 was higher than most beers I've done, and she kept sparkling and sounding fizzy the whole way in the glass. Whatever i said a few pages back is what I did for reference. Nice Co2 level for sour.

The increased flaked wheat didn't seem to add much head. Pouring it in barely left 1-2mm of headspace. It was fizzly (like a sour) and just wanted to be drank.

Being a professional scientist, I would now like to see what 3.15 or 3.2 pH would do. No doubt, this recipe would be liked be sour beer drinkers, and it's still approachable by non-sour drinkers. Time to bend the space continuum.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Nice job.

BTW I have used that strain a couple times (WLP300 in particular), despite being a newbie.

 

[Jag75]

Looks nice Fender. I was at Avila yesterday and we walked into a place called Libertine. They specialize in sours . I tried a few . My wife liked em , I'm just not a fan . I'm making this for my daughters , son n law and nephew . As long as you like it keep making it .

 

[fendersrule]

Like with ALL beer in general, just keep drinking it and you'll come around to appreciate the flavors!

This sour was my first all-grain brew as well, untreated water. Very proud of it. It's actually very balanced...I'm actually thinking the increased acidity hides any imperfections in the tap water...I wouldn't be hard pressed to care to "treat" my water for a kettle....this is really really good.....

I only have 5 gallons more of it to drink. Jeeze, what should I do?!

You guessed it!

A huge thanks to everyone on this thread. Making a sour is not difficult. Now it's my job to find ways to bend the rules.

 

[turbo 6]

I’m going to try RPH’s method but I want to add toasted coconut. Do I just rack on top the coconut?

 

[fendersrule]

Hi guys, I think my next beer is going to be another kettle sour. Please thumb me up a 5 gallon recipe for 69% efficiency! Things to incorporate:

1) I will be using a water profile this time. Any idea on what BrunWater profile to use?

2) I will be getting my souring pH to 3.3 as a target.

3) I would like for this beer to be red...and I'm thinking about infusing beets. I have beet powder, but I could also simply just get beet juice. How to incorporate this? Having a "mild" beet flavor is fine, but mainly want to do this for the color.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Any idea on what BrunWater profile to use?

I like to start with RO water & build it myself.
This is good:
95ppm calcium
77ppm sulfate
110ppm chloride
Lactic acid if needed.

Cheers

 

[isomerization]

3) I would like for this beer to be red...and I'm thinking about infusing beets. I have beet powder, but I could also simply just get beet juice. How to incorporate this? Having a "mild" beet flavor is fine, but mainly want to do this for the color.

I would recommend using a tea made from dried hibiscus leaves (https://www.amazon.com/Brewers-Best-Brewing-Spices-Hibiscus/dp/B01IS3GOSM)
to color your beer. The following was made with 1 oz hibiscus leaves (per 5 gal) added at kegging. Very minimal flavor impact, but there was watermelon added (almost no color was contributed by the fruit though).

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks. Another time to add hibiscus I would assume is right after the fermentation has ended in the primary, and let it set for another 5 days?

 

[isomerization]

Thanks. Another time to add hibiscus I would assume is right after the fermentation has ended in the primary, and let it set for another 5 days?

I’ve always made tea with it, no fermentables, so contact time isn’t an issue.

 

[fendersrule]

What would you guys suggest as a recipe with hibiscus? Start to finish recipe please, because this is going to be my next beer...would like about 6-6.5% ABV. I'll post pics and keep you guys apart of the process per usual!

I want to land at my stated pH level as well....this one needs to be REALLY sour at 3.3 PH.....

 

[Jag75]

@RPh_Guy . How much of the Lactobacillus do I add? I looked online at Goodbellys , Swansons ect and they are pills.

 

[Jag75]

I'm going to brew this later this week. Its gonna be a blueberry . When I rack onto blueberries in a secondary should I squish the berries a little or just toss in whole ?

 

[Jag75]

After more reading and watching YouTube I see that 1qt of goodbellys yogurt does the job.

 

[couchsending]

Pitch half a carton of Mango good belly and keep around 95 will get you from 4.5 to 3.3 pH in 16-18 hours.

Remember to pre-acidify down to 4.5.

 

[Jag75]

Pitch half a carton of Mango good belly and keep around 95 will get you from 4.5 to 3.3 pH in 16-18 hours.

Remember to pre-acidify down to 4.5.

My mash ph of 5.2 need to be dropped down to 4.5 ? I'm not doing a traditional kettle sour . I dont know if that makes a difference or not . I'm mashing and boiling normal . Then I'm pitching yeast then I'll pitch goodbellys 48 hrs later . Then I will dry hop at about 3.3-4 ph.

So after my mash and boil are you saying I should add lactic acid to drop ph down to 4.5 as a head start ?

On page 1 look at RPH sour technique. That's the one I'm trying .

 

[RPh_Guy]

@RPh_Guy . How much of the Lactobacillus do I add? I looked online at Goodbellys , Swansons ect and they are pills.

If you're going for yeast flavor I think it's best to make a buffered starter (using some wort from the batch) and pitch after around 48-72 hours of fermentation.
If you want it more neutral, add the Lacto right at the beginning. Pitch rate isn't critical, a couple opened capsules or a pint of GoodBelly per 5 gallons is plenty.

Target normal mash pH (5.2-5.6). Do not pre-acidify with this method.

Freeze or crush the berries.

Cheers

 

[couchsending]

My mash ph of 5.2 need to be dropped down to 4.5 ? I'm not doing a traditional kettle sour . I dont know if that makes a difference or not . I'm mashing and boiling normal . Then I'm pitching yeast then I'll pitch goodbellys 48 hrs later . Then I will dry hop at about 3.3-4 ph.

So after my mash and boil are you saying I should add lactic acid to drop ph down to 4.5 as a head start ?

On page 1 look at RPH sour technique. That's the one I'm trying .

Ah gotcha, yeah that was for a kettle sour (or a quick sour if you aren’t adding yeast until say 24-48 hours after pitching lacto)

Pre acidifying will keep a lot of the real nasties away. They can’t grow in that low of a pH wort. But if you’re pitching yeast first then you don’t need to worry.

I personally don’t like the character you get from dry hopping beers with that low of a pH. The flavor/aroma starts out fine but then can change quite a bit, and not in a good way. The breweries making all the great sour hoppy beers right now are just blending sour beer into an IPA before packaging.

As far as the blueberries go, freeze them, then thaw them before you add them.

 

[Jag75]

I think the dry hopping is to kill the Lacto . It's only .5 oz of Azacca so I wouldn't think it will give much aroma or flavor . I've never done one so I'm just guessing .

 

[RPh_Guy]

I just made a gose-inspired ale (lightly salty, lightly sour, no coriander). I added a hop tea of Amarillo at bottling to part of the batch and I think it's fantastic.

To another sour/Brett mixed beer I've dry hopped with half an ounce of Czech Saaz and that was really good.

I don't like excessive dry hopping in general.
@couchsending In a sour beer, maybe it increases the bitterness too much?

 

[Jag75]

Brewing the sour Thursday. Using 75% RO water and 25 %tap . My water profile is

90 calcium
75 sulfate
123 chloride

That's with additions of gypsum, calcium chloride and lactic acid . Ph of 5.3

 

[Jag75]

Ok so my LHBS has the Wlp644 yeast but it's best date was March 20th. So I gotta figure out a different yeast

 

[cmac62]

I have done only one kettle sour and I used the goodbelly stuff. I left it sit for a couple of days and man is it sour. I mix it with 7-up/sprite to make it drinkable. I have not heard of pitching the lacto into fermenting beer as an option. Then you just let it go until it is done? Do I have to worry about my kegs and beer lines?

I like a little sourness sometimes and I have used acidulated malt in the past to get a touch of acid/sourness without letting the lacto loose. LOL.

 

[Jag75]

Looks like us05 it is

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ok so my LHBS has the Wlp644 yeast but it's best date was March 20th. So I gotta figure out a different yeast

Hmm. I have a packet from November (best by April 30th).... I'm planning to use it this week, so we'll see how it held up.

I have not heard of pitching the lacto into fermenting beer as an option. Then you just let it go until it is done? Do I have to worry about my kegs and beer lines?

Yep, it's easier and has less risk of contamination. A standard cleaning process is fine.
Use no hops before souring.

You can dry hop (0.5oz/5gal or more) when the sourness reaches the level you want, or you can just let it keep going.