Making 2 starters- 1 sucrose and 1 malt?

[grathan]

I recently brewed a duevel clone that had like 3 LBs of table sugar as part of the recipe. It didn't ferment nearly enough and chunks of sugar grains can actually be seen on the bottom of the serving glass (I will probably use a finer table sugar next time).

I did make a starter, but I do feel that I underpitched...... Aside from that.. I am wondering if I could have made a 2nd starter with just table sugar for this batch.

 

[JonM]

When did you add the sugar? If it was in the boil, I'd think it would all be dissolved.

 

[duboman]

When did you add the sugar? If it was in the boil, I'd think it would all be dissolved.

+1, the sugar should have totally dissolved. If you added it to the primary it should have been boiled into a simple syrup first

As for making a starter out of simple sugar, not a great idea as the idea is to have the yeast grow and feed on what they will be ultimately fermenting and that is wort

 

[WoodlandBrew]

If there is genetic diversity in the cells used in the starter then an all sucrose wort will not encourage the yeast cells that can ferment maltose. Lack of ability to ferment maltose is a common genne to be dropped due to mutation. Malt extract also contains other nutrients that the yeast need for healthy fermentation such as phosphates, magnesium and zinc.

It would grow yeast, but they would not be as healthy as that grown with malt.

 

[grathan]

Are you guys saying the 2nd starter of sucrose would compete with the 1st maltose starter instead of augmenting the fermentation by focusing on sucrose?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Are you guys saying the 2nd starter of sucrose would compete with the 1st maltose starter instead of augmenting the fermentation by focusing on sucrose?

Yeast grown in a sucrose rich environment may become better at fermenting sucrose and have less of an ability to ferment maltose. However, one passage of the yeast will likely not have much of an effect.

The bigger problem I see is that the yeast will not have proper nutriance and will not be ready to ferment the wort.

You'll be growing bad yeast.

 

[grathan]

Are you saying that in a test where 2 starters compete in fermenting a wort of sugar-water the one made from malt would devour the sugar water before the starter made from sucrose?

Also what about adding some yeast energizer to the sugar starter?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

If you are asking if yeast grown in a wort of malt extract will outperform yeast grown in sucrose. Then in terms of fermentation time and total attenuation of a malt extract wort, I would say yes.

Adding yeast nutrients or "energizer" will aid in the production of healthy yeast in a wort void of other nutrients such as that of a pure sucrose wort.

 

[grathan]

No i meant sucrose wort.

 

[duboman]

Are you saying that in a test where 2 starters compete in fermenting a wort of sugar-water the one made from malt would devour the sugar water before the starter made from sucrose?

Also what about adding some yeast energizer to the sugar starter?

Assuming table sugar, it is a simple sugar or dextrose and they are all simple sugar chains that are 100% and easily fermentable. DME is a more complex sugar made up of maltose which are longer sugar chains, still fermentable but not 100% and not quite as easy to chew through.

With that understanding, the purpose of a starter is to ensure the viability of your yeast as well as grow the colony of cells up to a proper, HEALTHY, pitch rate for the given beer being brewed. If you feed your yeast a simple sugar to start then they may not ultimately break down the more difficult sugars presented to them and attenuation may suffer.

Another example can be in the actual wort where a large amount of simple sugar is added to boost ABV. If there is too much in the wort the yeast may consume it all first and fill up and not have enough remaining energy left to begin breaking down the more complex sugars involved. This can result in a stuck fermentation or incomplete attenuation of the beer. This is why it is important to make sure that simple sugars do not comprise a huge percentage of the grain bill of a beer.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

No i meant sucrose wort.

I'm not sure I understand your intention. Why would you want to ferment an all sucrose wort? Perhaps understanding your goal will help us aid in finding a means to achieve it.

 

[JonM]

Exactly - if you want to know why the last batch didn't ferment properly, tell us the recipe and process.

 

[grathan]

It was like 7# 2 row and 3# sugar. I am not so cuirous about the process. I am sure I could get this fermented further next time with a bigger malt starter. I am curious about the benefits of an additional table sugar starter from a cost analysis standpoint.

Let's assume I get table sugar for free and dried malt costs a boatload of money.


Is there any benefit to adding a second starter made with only table sugar?

 

[Denny]

It was like 7# 2 row and 3# sugar. I am not so cuirous about the process. I am sure I could get this fermented further next time with a bigger malt starter. I am curious about the benefits of an additional table sugar starter from a cost analysis standpoint.

Let's assume I get table sugar for free and dried malt costs a boatload of money.


Is there any benefit to adding a second starter made with only table sugar?

No benefit at all and likely a detriment.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

Is it crazy sweet? I know you said there are sugar granules in the finished beer, but how is it otherwise? When did you add the sugar? I believe yeast will metabolize simple sugars, if they are available, before turning their attention to maltose. You might be better off letting primary start to wind down before you add the sugar. This way you can rest assured that most of the maltose has been metabolized before you turn the yeast loose on the sugar and get their priorities all screwed up. And like others have said, boil the sugar and make sure it's dissolved before you add it. The yeast can't make any use of it if it isn't in solution.

 

[kaboom133]

I make starters out of table sugar all of the time with no negative results, but those are only for mead and wine. I add yeast nutrient to my sugar starters, and I never use them in beer.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Let's assume I get table sugar for free and dried malt costs a boatload of money.


Is there any benefit to adding a second starter made with only table sugar?

one starter made with half DME and half sugar with a little yeast nutrient might work okay and save you a buck, but it would be at the cost of growing healthy yeast.

A starter made with only sugar is only going to produce yeast lacking nutrience. Perhaps analogue to a diet of twinkies for a person.

Fix wrote about yeast health in high sugar content worts. I'll have to read it again.

 

[duboman]

In all honesty for the 150grams of DME it takes to make a 1.5L starter you are simply pinching pennies for the sacrifice of 5 gallons of properly fermented beer