Lowish ABV BIAB partygyle?

[joeybeer]

I've brewed dozens of batches in the past, but never attempted to brew a mild from the leftovers!
I'm planning on brewing an ESB that will be about 5.5ABV.
As I'm trying to build my pipeline and would like a low ABV (3.5%) beer on hand, I was thiinking I might rinse the bag into a fermenter and top it off with DME or a small batch of mild on top.

Any idea what I could expect as a gravity of the sparge? Is there any point at all in doing this?

 

[Willy]

I've brewed dozens of batches in the past, but never attempted to brew a mild from the leftovers!
I'm planning on brewing an ESB that will be about 5.5ABV.
As I'm trying to build my pipeline and would like a low ABV (3.5%) beer on hand, I was thiinking I might rinse the bag into a fermenter and top it off with DME or a small batch of mild on top.

Any idea what I could expect as a gravity of the sparge? Is there any point at all in doing this?

I would focus more on a recipe with less grain that gets you to your 3.5 ABV. A 5 gallon batch with 6-8 lbs of grain sounds about right, depends on your brew house and mash efficiency.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've brewed dozens of batches in the past, but never attempted to brew a mild from the leftovers!
I'm planning on brewing an ESB that will be about 5.5ABV.
As I'm trying to build my pipeline and would like a low ABV (3.5%) beer on hand, I was thiinking I might rinse the bag into a fermenter and top it off with DME or a small batch of mild on top.

Any idea what I could expect as a gravity of the sparge? Is there any point at all in doing this?

Partigyling gets discussed from time to time in the main English thread and you're probably best off there.

The critical thing is mixing the different runnings and not just using all the first runnings for one beer and the second runnings for a different one. Aside from the fact that the second runnings in your case will probably be down at 1.015 or 1.020, the flavour compounds come off at a similar (if not faster) rate than the sugars, so the second runnings on their own make for a pretty miserable beer.

 

[doug293cz]

I've brewed dozens of batches in the past, but never attempted to brew a mild from the leftovers!
I'm planning on brewing an ESB that will be about 5.5ABV.
As I'm trying to build my pipeline and would like a low ABV (3.5%) beer on hand, I was thiinking I might rinse the bag into a fermenter and top it off with DME or a small batch of mild on top.

Any idea what I could expect as a gravity of the sparge? Is there any point at all in doing this?

The ESB FG range is usually given as 1.010 to 1.016, so let's assume 1.012 and do a simulation.

To get 5.5 ABV with an FG of 1.012 requires an OG of 1.054 (used this calculator and adjusted OG until I got the target ABV.) Additional assumptions are you want 5.5 gal to the fermenter for each batch, your boil-off for each batch is 1.25 gal, your typical conversion efficiency is 95%, your typical grain absorption is 0.10 gal/lb, you will do a single batch sparge, and have equal boil volumes for the two beers.

If we assume 0.5 gal trub loss going from BK to fermenter, then we need a post-boil volume of 6.0 gal, and pre-boil volume needs to be 7.25 gal. The pre-boil SG needs to be:

Pre-boil SG = 1 + (1.054 - 1) * 6.0 / 7.25 = 1.0447​

​

I will now use my spreadsheet here to perform some unnatural acts to get to the answer of how much grain is needed, and what the pre-boil SG and OG will be for the gyle.

The results indicate that a straight partigyle, without blending the first and second running worts won't work well for the gyle. You would mash 12.09 lb of grain in 8.46 gal of water, and recover 7.25 gal of 1.0447 SG pre-boil wort. You would then batch (dunk) sparge the spent grains in 7.25 gal of water, and recover 7.25 gal (you don't lose any to grain absorption as the grain is already saturated) of 1.009 SG pre-boil wort for the gyle - not very useful. OG for the gyle would be:

Gyle OG = 1 + (1.009 -1) * 7.25 / 6 = 1.011​

​

If this wort attenuated 75%, the FG would be about 1.003, for an ABV of only ~1%

If you want to look at calculating for a wort blending partigyle, let me know. Would like to know your values for conversion efficiency, grain absorption rate, boil-off, kettle trub loss, and to-fermenter volumes for each batch, in order to make the calculations better fit your process.

Brew on

 

[joeybeer]

Amazing responses, exactly what I was wondering and looking for! I think I’ll skip this crazy idea and just make two batches - thanks for all your help

 

[dmbrew48]

I took the less scientific approach - used brewersfriend calc to make a 2.5 gal mild - about 3.8% - in my anvil. Pulled the malt tube & finished the brew. But - I mashed about 1.75# of maris in a cooler to try to have it ready when the first brew finished. After moving the chilled wort to fv, refilled anvil with treated ro water (lower qty), heated to mash temp & lowered malt tube in. Dumped the maris being mashed on top of the malt tube grain & went with it.
It turned out better than expected. 2nd batch was 3.4% - could bumped up the added maris.

 

[kohalajohn]

The ESB FG range is usually given as 1.010 to 1.016, so let's assume 1.012 and do a simulation.

To get 5.5 ABV with an FG of 1.012 requires an OG of 1.054 (used this calculator and adjusted OG until I got the target ABV.) Additional assumptions are you want 5.5 gal to the fermenter for each batch, your boil-off for each batch is 1.25 gal, your typical conversion efficiency is 95%, your typical grain absorption is 0.10 gal/lb, you will do a single batch sparge, and have equal boil volumes for the two beers.

If we assume 0.5 gal trub loss going from BK to fermenter, then we need a post-boil volume of 6.0 gal, and pre-boil volume needs to be 7.25 gal. The pre-boil SG needs to be:

Pre-boil SG = 1 + (1.054 - 1) * 6.0 / 7.25 = 1.0447​

​

I will now use my spreadsheet here to perform some unnatural acts to get to the answer of how much grain is needed, and what the pre-boil SG and OG will be for the gyle.

The results indicate that a straight partigyle, without blending the first and second running worts won't work well for the gyle. You would mash 12.09 lb of grain in 8.46 gal of water, and recover 7.25 gal of 1.0447 SG pre-boil wort. You would then batch (dunk) sparge the spent grains in 7.25 gal of water, and recover 7.25 gal (you don't lose any to grain absorption as the grain is already saturated) of 1.009 SG pre-boil wort for the gyle - not very useful. OG for the gyle would be:

Gyle OG = 1 + (1.009 -1) * 7.25 / 6 = 1.011​

​

If this wort attenuated 75%, the FG would be about 1.003, for an ABV of only ~1%

If you want to look at calculating for a wort blending partigyle, let me know. Would like to know your values for conversion efficiency, grain absorption rate, boil-off, kettle trub loss, and to-fermenter volumes for each batch, in order to make the calculations better fit your process.

Brew on

Very interesting. It assists with something I"ve long been curious about. We are told that in the old days the English would take the first runnings to make a strong beer (for the men) and then do a second runnings or partigyle to make a light beer (for women and children).

I wondered, if there was enough jam in the second runnings to actually make beer, then we as modern day brewers should be frantically fly sparging for hours, to get all that sugary goodness out of there. But most of us don't. Many experienced brewers here do a minimal sparge or no sparge at all, and still have good results. Why?

Reading Doug's letter, I think it's because our modern mashing techniques and equipment are more efficient than in the old days of partigyle. Just guessing, but maybe in the old days the first mash only took out 60% of the sugars, where in modern times our first mash takes out 90%.

Barley strains have been bred to have more active and "fiery" enzymes so we have faster and more efficient saccharification. Malting was a week long process but modern grains go through the malting process in just two days.

We have precise temperature control, so the enzymes now do 100% of their job. We no longer add logs to a fire under a cauldron and hope for the best.

We have modern information systems. We no longer bring in old Bob to sniff the cauldron and pronounce it ready.

And also maybe there's a second reason. The working class centuries ago were frantically, dirt poor. Hungry poor. You never throw out chicken bones. You'd boil them in soup for hours to get every gram of nutrition you could. My people in the past would make a Haggis with every single damn part of the sheep.

 

[Kickass]

The critical thing is mixing the different runnings and not just using all the first runnings for one beer and the second runnings for a different one. Aside from the fact that the second runnings in your case will probably be down at 1.015 or 1.020, the flavour compounds come off at a similar (if not faster) rate than the sugars, so the second runnings on their own make for a pretty miserable beer.

I failed to realize this the first and only time I did a partigyle. The small beer was so thin and pathetic. It had almost no flavor. I used it as a water replacement in my water bottle.

 

[kevin58]

Partigyling was developed less for getting a small beer from the second runnings as it was a method for making consistent OG/ABV beers to satisfy the tax man. The different runnings or gyles were blended to achieve the same strength every batch. In the case of Fullers they partigyled three and sometimes four worts from the same mash to get ESB, London Pride, and Chiswick Bitter.

There is a book by Peter Symons called Gyle Brews which digs deep into the practice and will give you tips and examples of how to split your own mash for an authentic partigyle.

Side note: Traditionally Stout and Porter were partigyled from the same mash which answers the age old question: what's the difference between those two? Nothing but the strength. Side, side note: Even oatmeal stouts also had a partigyled porter... so weren't they "oatmeal porters"?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Partigyling was developed less for getting a small beer from the second runnings as it was a method for making consistent OG/ABV beers to satisfy the tax man. The different runnings or gyles were blended to achieve the same strength every batch. In the case of Fullers they partigyled three and sometimes four worts from the same mash to get ESB, London Pride, and Chiswick Bitter.

According to John Keeling the main driver for Fuller's partigyling was energy efficiency, it lets them heat up the second gyle with the hot first gyle.