Low oxygen racking

[Hannabrew]

I have an IPA in the fermenter that finished a LOT sooner than expected (36 hours) so I have no gravity points to scavenge O2 during racking.

I know the general consensus is to add priming solution to the primary and then rack once activity resumes however I was debating a different approach and am wondering what the pros and cons would be.

Since I plan on dry hopping in the keg as well, I was thinking about doing the normal full water purge of the keg, then quickly opening the lid and adding the dry hops and priming solution, and then CO2 purging a few times.

My main questions are the following:

1) What is the advantage of priming in the primary versus in the keg? I realize that racking during an active fermentation will scavenge the O2 immediately but won't priming The Keg also scavenge the O2 (perhaps a bit slower since it has to start after 02 is already introduced)?

2) if the consensus is to prime the primary in this situation, how do you ensure that the priming solution gets mixed well and some of it doesn't just sink to the bottom and not get racked? I'm assuming you don't stir as that would introduce even more oxygen I would think.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

So you're using priming sugar in the keg vs force carbing? I guess my first question would be "Why?". I can see that for some styles of beer, but for an IPA I don't see a good reason.

For IPA's (especially NEIPAs), I want to drink them as fresh as possible and I don't want them at room temp any longer than they have to be. Here's what I do (this may not help you if you've got specific plans that are in conflict).

1) Primary only.
2) As soon as fermentation After about a week of primary, I raise the temp to 70 to let the yeast clean up...let that go 2-3 days.
3) Cold crash for two days
4) I sanitize my keg, then purge with CO2
5) I do a closed transfer to the keg
6) Purge 4-5 times with CO2
7) Force carb

For my closed transfer, I run about 1.5 psi into the carboy (Big Mouth Bubbler) with the racking cane attached to the output port of the keg. I used sanke kegs, so I have to temporarily remove the check valve ball.

This way I can go from grain to glass in about 17 days and the fermented beer is only at room temp for about 3-5 days after fermentation is complete.

 

[Hannabrew]

So you're using priming sugar in the keg vs force carbing? I guess my first question would be "Why?".

Mostly to ensure that there is next to no O2 in the keg. Another way of prolonging IPAs, NEIPAs included. I'm basically following the cold side of the LoDo approach.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Mostly to ensure that there is next to no O2 in the keg. Another way of prolonging IPAs, NEIPAs included. I'm basically following the cold side of the LoDo approach.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you rationale for doing this!? Do you not purge your kegs with CO2 prior to filling? Purging and close transfer will ensure no O2 is in the keg. Not sure priming solution added to the keg will do this...unless you are fermenting in the keg?

Also, even if your beer finishes within a couple of days I'd let it sit in the primary for at least a week and usually go to two weeks to let the yeast clean up. I've never added priming solution directly to the primary, always racked to a new vessel...

 

[Hannabrew]

I do purge. I don't want to rehash a hot topic on this site (LoDo brewing) but I'll just say that to some, that is not enough.

 

[Big Monk]

Mostly to ensure that there is next to no O2 in the keg. Another way of prolonging IPAs, NEIPAs included. I'm basically following the cold side of the LoDo approach.

Even the "purest" grade of CO2 can contain around 30 ppm of O2.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Mostly to ensure that there is next to no O2 in the keg. Another way of prolonging IPAs, NEIPAs included. I'm basically following the cold side of the LoDo approach.

OK. My process has worked very well for my NEIPAs with respect to longevity, so I guess I'm no help. Good luck.

 

[Queequeg]

Even the "purest" grade of CO2 can contain around 30 ppm of O2.

This is an extremely important point. To follow up on this due to Henry's Law and the solubility of O2 most of this O2 as a carbonation gas impurity will end up in the beer. Not much that anyone can do about that. Spalding won't prevent it either.

Also fill purging doesn't completely clear the kegg. Though you can flush the head space you can't get get rid of the O2 in the starsan residue.

This might seem churish but it only takes a few ppm of O2 it cause oxidation of hop oils.

 

[Queequeg]

You might be help to others so please share.

Oops, you did share. Thanks

 

[TexasWine]

Spalding won't prevent it either.

I assume you meant spunding? This was my knee jerk response too, but it actually can prevent it.

If you spund, you only need enough CO2 to push the beer out of the keg because you're not dissolving any into the beer. For every molecule of CO2 that enters the keg, oxygen comes along for the ride.

Therefore, because spunding means less CO2 enters the keg from the CO2 bottle, there will be less oxygen entering the keg over the life of the beer as well. This reduces oxidation.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

How long are you trying to keep a keg fresh that you need to worry about the tiny amount of O2 that's in the CO2? If you need to keep it that long, why not brew smaller batches. If it's only lasting a month or so, it should be a non-issue.

It seems like people are getting wrapped around the axle on what should not be a problem.

 

[Hannabrew]

IME For hop heads, that flavor and aroma go quick without tight o2 control.

 

[Upthewazzu]

1) primary only.
2) as soon as fermentation after about a week of primary, i raise the temp to 70 to let the yeast clean up...let that go 2-3 days.
3) cold crash for two days
4) i sanitize my keg, then purge with co2
5) i do a closed transfer to the keg
6) purge 4-5 times with co2
7) force carb

Do this. I started purging and closed transferring about a year ago and it has made a noticeable difference in my beer (no sugar necessary). My process is slightly different (I drilled out a spigot hole in my BMB) but essentially the same. At the homebrew level, this is about the best you can do.

 

[Hannabrew]

Do this. I started purging and closed transferring about a year ago and it has made a noticeable difference in my beer (no sugar necessary). My process is slightly different (I drilled out a spigot hole in my BMB) but essentially the same. At the homebrew level, this is about the best you can do.

That is what I've done in the past and continue to purge kegs and completely closed transfers. DO levels are still relatively high. There are other methods (like transferring during fermentation and/or natural conditioning) that help scrub what is left.

 

[Upthewazzu]

DO levels are still relatively high.

I'm genuinely curious how you know this.

 

[Sbe2]

You could try a pseudo krausening. Make a 1 liter "starter", add priming sugar and "starter" to racked beer. Working this out in my mind from what I have read on the Treehouse Yeast ID.

 

[Hannabrew]

I'm genuinely curious how you know this.

The oh so official "what happened to my delicious IPA?!?" test.

Semi-kidding. I haven't measured my own beers however my frustration with hop bombs turning on me a lot quicker than I would like brought me to the front doorstep of the LoDo community. I've read up on the experiments and measurements they are doing and found the method that I was using to rack still contained levels of O2 that could be contributing to the flavor/aroma changes.

It's not an exact science but the last two beers I've done with semi-LoDo methods have had the same flavor on day 1 as they do on day 20...can't say much beyond that as they don't last much longer.

So in short, I don't KNOW it...I taste it though.

 

[TexasWine]

How long are you trying to keep a keg fresh that you need to worry about the tiny amount of O2 that's in the CO2?

One week. You can notice a difference in that short amount of time.

 

[Hannabrew]

One week. You can notice a difference in that short amount of time.

that was my experience as well.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

One week. You can notice a difference in that short amount of time.

Wow, I guess I'm blessed with a palate that's not refined enough to notice the difference. I've had several NEIPA kegs that have lasted at least 3 weeks that were still delicious at the end. Are you keeping them at room temp or something?

I genuinely feel bad for those of you plagued with this. What a nightmare to brew a great beer only to have it go to crap in a matter of days. Do you have the same issue with commercial beer where it has to be days from canning/bottling or it's just not good anymore?

I've had NEIPAs that were months old that had noticeably dropped off, but I regularly buy super fresh ones from Toppling Goliath that are certainly fine to me for a month or so when kept refrigerated...

 

[Upthewazzu]

It's not an exact science but the last two beers I've done with semi-LoDo methods have had the same flavor on day 1 as they do on day 20...can't say much beyond that as they don't last much longer.

If the beer tasted the same on day 20 as it did on day 1 using the purge keg/closed transfer method then what are you trying to accomplish above and beyond that? You said they don't last longer than that anyways, so what are you trying to gain?

FWIW, I had a NEIPA in a keg for over 2 months and it still tasted great with a big 'ol helping of punch-you-in-the-nose aroma at the end. Not sure I'd step over a dollar to pick up a dime in order to gain an infinitesimally small drop in O2.

 

[Queequeg]

I assume you meant spunding? This was my knee jerk response too, but it actually can prevent it.

If you spund, you only need enough CO2 to push the beer out of the keg because you're not dissolving any into the beer. For every molecule of CO2 that enters the keg, oxygen comes along for the ride.

Therefore, because spunding means less CO2 enters the keg from the CO2 bottle, there will be less oxygen entering the keg over the life of the beer as well. This reduces oxidation.

Yeah sorry spunding.

Though your reasoning seems sound I'm not sure that's how it actually works.

Henry's law states that when a mixture of gas is present in contact with a solvent the amount that is dissolved is proportional to is partial pressure and therefore the same if that gas was present on it own

So although spunding will carbonate the beer and no more CO2 will dissolve from the headspace, the O2 in the head space will be completely unaffected by this though and will dissolve into the beer. Also O2 dissolved in the beer reactions reducing the Partial pressure and consequently more O2 moves into the beer towards equilibrium.

Consequent more gas mixture will flow into the headspace to replace this O2 and consequently the O2 from the Co2 will end up in your beer just as it would if you had spunded.

This is explained in the last chapter of Principles of brewing science by Fix.

 

[TexasWine]

Yeah sorry spunding.

Though your reasoning seems sound I'm not sure that's how it actually works.

Henry's law states that when a mixture of gas is present in contact with a solvent the amount that is dissolved is proportional to is partial pressure and therefore the same if that gas was present on it own

So although spunding will carbonate the beer and no more CO2 will dissolve from the headspace, the O2 in the head space will be completely unaffected by this though and will dissolve into the beer.

Consequent more gas mixture will flow into the headspace to replace this O2 and consequently the O2 from the Co2 will end up in your beer just as it would if you had spunded.

This is explained in the last chapter of Principles of brewing science by Fix.

I hear what you're saying, and yes I'm familiar with Henry's law. I agree that in theory this should be the case for a completely open and ideal system, where on one side you have the co2 bottle connected via hose to a keg on the other. But you have to consider other things that show up in real life, like the sensitivity of the pressure regulator between the co2 supply and the keg.

To state the obvious, as the oxygen is dissolved, theoretically the pressure in the keg should drop. When the pressure drops, the regulator​ opens. However, with 99.9% pure co2, I don't believe my pressure regulator has the granularity to even notice that kind of pressure drop and will therefore stay completely closed.

Maybe someone can educate me more on regulators and tell me my theory is hogwash? I have a basic understanding, but no more than that.

 

[Queequeg]

I hear what you're saying, and yes I'm familiar with Henry's law. I agree that in theory this should be the case for a completely open and ideal system, where on one side you have the co2 bottle connected via hose to a keg on the other. But you have to consider other things that show up in real life, like the sensitivity of the pressure regulator between the co2 supply and the keg.

To state the obvious, as the oxygen is dissolved, theoretically the pressure in the keg should drop. When the pressure drops, the regulator​ opens. However, with 99.9% pure co2, I don't believe my pressure regulator has the granularity to even notice that kind of pressure drop and will therefore stay completely closed.

Maybe someone can educate me more on regulators and tell me my theory is hogwash? I have a basic understanding, but no more than that.

That sounds very sound too me. I have yet to try spunding my main concern is yeast in the keg.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I find all this chatter about LoDo, hummm what's the word? Funny, interesting, OCD, best practice? I can't really put my finger on it. I'd be very interested in data from double blind or triple blind studies with an actual DO meter measuring oxygen content. I'd be happy to see 50% of GABF and NHC winners come from LoDo brewers. However I see tons of potential for conformation bias written all over this topic. Damn you Henry's law! The best part of homebrewing is we can all brew what we want, how we want with the equipment we have or want. So I don't fault anyone that wants to improve their beers at any point in the process. I won't tell you your right or wrong as it's your beer and your hobby. But to suspect that 99.7 pure co2 is the thing that's killing your hop aroma seems a like a bit of a reach to me.

 

[Queequeg]

But to suspect that 99.7 pure co2 is the thing that's killing your hop aroma seems a like a bit of a reach to me.

I'm not sure that was the point of the original statement regarding O2 in CO2. Rather that there is not much point trying limit O2 ingress below the concentration of that in your CO2 supply because the O2 in your CO2 gas will equilibrate with the beer in the keg anyway.

 

[Hannabrew]

If the beer tasted the same on day 20 as it did on day 1 using the purge keg/closed transfer method then what are you trying to accomplish above and beyond that? You said they don't last longer than that anyways, so what are you trying to gain?

FWIW, I had a NEIPA in a keg for over 2 months and it still tasted great with a big 'ol helping of punch-you-in-the-nose aroma at the end. Not sure I'd step over a dollar to pick up a dime in order to gain an infinitesimally small drop in O2.

The beers that have lasted longer were closed transferred either during fermentation or primed in the primary just before racking.

 

[Invertalon]

My NE IPA's two months in the keg have been nearly as impressive as freshly tapped. Hard to believe some of you notice a drop within one week or even a month. Crazy. I have done quite a few at this point and they hold up fantastic... Not sure what you guys are doing that you have such drop off issues, but I am glad I don't have to deal with it.

The extent of my technique is having a spigot on my fermentation bucket so I am able to just attach a hose and rack right into the bottom of a well purged keg with no agitation and practically being “closed” without the need for gas to push anything. Easy as can be. Once transferred, purge the headspace a few more times and done with it.

 

[maxxxx]

I have an IPA in the fermenter that finished a LOT sooner than expected (36 hours) so I have no gravity points to scavenge O2 during racking.

I know the general consensus is to add priming solution to the primary and then rack once activity resumes however I was debating a different approach and am wondering what the pros and cons would be.

Since I plan on dry hopping in the keg as well, I was thinking about doing the normal full water purge of the keg, then quickly opening the lid and adding the dry hops and priming solution, and then CO2 purging a few times.

My main questions are the following:

1) What is the advantage of priming in the primary versus in the keg? I realize that racking during an active fermentation will scavenge the O2 immediately but won't priming The Keg also scavenge the O2 (perhaps a bit slower since it has to start after 02 is already introduced)?

2) if the consensus is to prime the primary in this situation, how do you ensure that the priming solution gets mixed well and some of it doesn't just sink to the bottom and not get racked? I'm assuming you don't stir as that would introduce even more oxygen I would think.

Why don't you just force carbonate?
Purge the keg with co2, push beer into keg from fermenter using co2, the top off keg headspace with co2, finally force carbonate with co2.

 

[lawdawg]

My NE IPA's two months in the keg have been nearly as impressive as freshly tapped. Hard to believe some of you notice a drop within one week or even a month. Crazy. I have done quite a few at this point and they hold up fantastic... Not sure what you guys are doing that you have such drop off issues, but I am glad I don't have to deal with it.

The extent of my technique is having a spigot on my fermentation bucket so I am able to just attach a hose and rack right into the bottom of a well purged keg with no agitation and practically being “closed” without the need for gas to push anything. Easy as can be. Once transferred, purge the headspace a few more times and done with it.

Agreed. I've been this for a while too except I don't even purge the keg except for burping several times after transfer. Maybe it's worth trying but it sounds like extra busy work too me.

 

[LKABrewer]

If you are raising your ferm temps to 70 for 2-3 days to finish fermentation (no more yeast activity), then cold crashing in the fermenter for 2-3 days, then you are oxidizing your beers. When you cold crash, air is sucked into the fermenter. As the beer cools, it absorbs headspace gasses. If you are cold crashing in the fermenter, that may be why you do not notice a difference between fresh and month old beer; neither are nearly as fresh as they could be

You are much better off putting your beer in the keg at it's highest temperature (70), then cold crashing in the keg under CO2 pressure.

So you're using priming sugar in the keg vs force carbing? I guess my first question would be "Why?". I can see that for some styles of beer, but for an IPA I don't see a good reason.

For IPA's (especially NEIPAs), I want to drink them as fresh as possible and I don't want them at room temp any longer than they have to be. Here's what I do (this may not help you if you've got specific plans that are in conflict).

1) Primary only.
2) As soon as fermentation After about a week of primary, I raise the temp to 70 to let the yeast clean up...let that go 2-3 days.
3) Cold crash for two days
4) I sanitize my keg, then purge with CO2
5) I do a closed transfer to the keg
6) Purge 4-5 times with CO2
7) Force carb

For my closed transfer, I run about 1.5 psi into the carboy (Big Mouth Bubbler) with the racking cane attached to the output port of the keg. I used sanke kegs, so I have to temporarily remove the check valve ball.

This way I can go from grain to glass in about 17 days and the fermented beer is only at room temp for about 3-5 days after fermentation is complete.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Mostly to ensure that there is next to no O2 in the keg. Another way of prolonging IPAs, NEIPAs included. I'm basically following the cold side of the LoDo approach.

The best way to ensure you get all O2 out is to fill the keg with boiling water then force it out with co2. This also rinses any sanitizer out