Low Enzymatic/Cold Mash/Low alcohol beer

[Alan Reginato]

I just saw this thread. I will save it, because I liked the idea. On winter, South hemisphere, I will give it a try. I shall share my perceptions.

Ok. I give it a try.
The recipe:

The inverted sugar would be the priming sugar.

I choose the 1 hour stirring approach. It was manual, so it was also a exercise. Not too hard, a medium speed was enough.

IMHO It worked, a lot of colour was extracted.

During the stirring process.

Some time after, but there was still a lot of particles in there.

I asked a fine grind, to BIAB setup. So, a lot of malt flour comes too. And after liftoff the grain bag and do a sparge, when I turned on the electric element, it turned to be a nightmare. In less than 3 minutes I could smell something burning. Take off the element and the scorching was REALLY bad. Maybe a gas burner would work better. Anyway I cleaned it. Added 4 whirflocks. Waited for 4 hours, transferred the wort to the fermentors. Cleaned the kettle, there was a lot of insoluble starch in there. Transferred back, cleaned the fermentors, a lot of cleaning involved...
Them turned the heat on, again, when it went about 60C, burnt smell again, cleaning again, turn on again and did a 65C mash, for 1 hour.
The insoluble starch and the scorching are a HUGE PROBLEM, SERIOUSLY. Let it settle down and racking aren't optional.

After all, forgot to take other pictures. But everything went normal, it is fermenting now. No sinal of burnt flavours, or I hope it so.

The final colour was a deep red, very nice. And smelled good too. The yeast was from a stout, so the final result will be a little darker.

I shall update as it goes, wish me luck!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

scorching: IIRC (it's been a couple of years since I've brewed with this technique),

a course grind,​

sparging,​

gravity (let the wort sit for a couple of hours), and​

leaving some wort behind when transferring​

help prevent scorching while heating the wort.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

stirring to shorten the 'cold extraction' step: stirring for an hour may not be necessary, but it may depend on the amount (and ratio) of water / malts.

With short cold steeps (crystal / roasted malts, not base malts), I find that extraction of colors & fermentables is generally complete after about 30 minutes. When I cold steep, I single crush the malts and give the steep a brief stir every five minutes.

 

[Agent]

Very nice @Alan Reginato !

It's true that there is a substantial amount of starch/sludge that is not present in a normal mash.

I did not settle or decant mine, but I think I avoided scorching because the heating element is located in the middle of a 5 gallon batch. Looking at yours being situated lower and with 10 gallons, I could easily see that making the difference.

And I'm slightly concerned with your 53 IBU on a 2% beer!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

additional background: in other topics, I've talked about using a shorter cold steep of crystal malts (30 min vs overnight) . With a shorter cold steep, I find that I get almost all of the extraction (color, SG) in about 30 minutes. As part of that process, I give the steeping wort a quick stir every 5 minutes. Maybe a stir every 15 min (rather than every 5) is 'close enough'?

stirring to shorten the 'cold extraction' step: stirring for an hour may not be necessary, but it may depend on the amount (and ratio) of water / malts.

About a week ago, I put together a brew "day" where I attempted to measure the effectiveness of a 1 hour cold extraction while stirring briefly every 15 minutes. I then let the cold extraction sit overnight and attempted to measure again.

OG 48 (est), FG 12 (est), IBU 43 (Tinseth est), SRM 16 (est); 2 gal (into fermenter)
Water: no/low mineral; mash 60 min @ 152F; "amber balanced" profile added to mash
Grain: ~ 3.5# Pale Ale malt; ~ 4.25# Munich 10L; 0.25# Crystal 120L
Hops: Golding at 60, 30, 5 in a 3:2:2 ratio
Yeast: Nottingham @ 65F
Note: strike water included wort from cold extraction / steep

To reduce the flour from a double crush, all grains were single crushed. I also let the cold extraction wort settle for about an hour before adding it to the brew day kettle (and I left most of the last of the cloudy cold extraction wort behind).

Process (late afternoon on the day before brew day):

• Munich 10 (cold extraction): in a 2 gal pail, add 1.75 gal water and malt. Stir briefly every 15 minutes. After 60 minutes measure SG.
• Crystal 120L (cold steep): in a 0.5 gal container, add 0.25 gal water and malt. Stir briefly every 15 minutes, observing color. After 60 minutes measure SG.
• After 60 minutes, move the two containers into a refridgerator overnight

For the 1 hour cold steep (stirring once every 15 minutes), I didn't see color changing after 30 minutes. WIth my other cold steeps (stirring every 5 minutes), color seemed to stop changing after about 30 minutes. So maybe: less stirring, similar result. The brand of crystal 120L I used was 'new to me' and it looks like I got a higher efficiency (around 50%) than I normally get (around 35%).

For the 1 hour cold extraction (stirring once every 15 mintues), it appears that I got about 20% efficiency out of the malt. The measurements on brew day were messy. It may be there was some additional SG from the overnight cold extraction.

---

If I were to repeat the cold extraction measurements as part of a future brew day, I would consider splitting the cold extraction into two containers (different grain to water volumes).

 

[mashdar]

I've only tried a couple times so far, but IMO a starch precipitation rest and transfer off the sludge is well worth it. It avoids scorching and drops the gravity much lower.

If you wanted that gravity, you can add more grain (something with some B glucans, or something flavorful) during the conversion rest.

edit: also I recommend acidifying if under 2%; I've found the pH doesn't get low enough for FDA recommendations (4.6) sometimes. I'm toying with trying the GMO lactic acid yeast on a 1% beer.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Ok. I give it a try.
The recipe:



View attachment 830751
The inverted sugar would be the priming sugar.

I choose the 1 hour stirring approach. It was manual, so it was also a exercise. Not too hard, a medium speed was enough.

IMHO It worked, a lot of colour was extracted.

View attachment 830760
During the stirring process.


View attachment 830757Some time after, but there was still a lot of particles in there.

I asked a fine grind, to BIAB setup. So, a lot of malt flour comes too. And after liftoff the grain bag and do a sparge, when I turned on the electric element, it turned to be a nightmare. In less than 3 minutes I could smell something burning. Take off the element and the scorching was REALLY bad. Maybe a gas burner would work better. Anyway I cleaned it. Added 4 whirflocks. Waited for 4 hours, transferred the wort to the fermentors. Cleaned the kettle, there was a lot of insoluble starch in there. Transferred back, cleaned the fermentors, a lot of cleaning involved...
Them turned the heat on, again, when it went about 60C, burnt smell again, cleaning again, turn on again and did a 65C mash, for 1 hour.
The insoluble starch and the scorching are a HUGE PROBLEM, SERIOUSLY. Let it settle down and racking aren't optional.

After all, forgot to take other pictures. But everything went normal, it is fermenting now. No sinal of burnt flavours, or I hope it so.

The final colour was a deep red, very nice. And smelled good too. The yeast was from a stout, so the final result will be a little darker.

I shall update as it goes, wish me luck!

Update!

FG stopped at 1.009. It means only 0,9% ABV. Not sure why or how. There's a burnt flavour, not that strong. And it's super bitter, even to me. But I'm not done, yet.

Trying to save this batch, added 3 kg of inverted sugar along with 5 L of water. Throw out the yeast cake, where the burnt flavour was more intense, and had to transfer back and forth between fermenters and the kettle. Also, added a new yeast package. Everything sanitised with alcohol.

Let's see how it goes.

I thought of naming this beer: Disaster Batch. If end up drinkable.

 

[mashdar]

Update!

FG stopped at 1.009. It means only 0,9% ABV. Not sure why or how. There's a burnt flavour, not that strong. And it's super bitter, even to me. But I'm not done, yet.

Trying to save this batch, added 3 kg of inverted sugar along with 5 L of water. Throw out the yeast cake, where the burnt flavour was more intense, and had to transfer back and forth between fermenters and the kettle. Also, added a new yeast package. Everything sanitised with alcohol.

Let's see how it goes.

I thought of naming this beer: Disaster Batch. If end up drinkable.

My attempts have had fairly low attenuation, too. I suspect there's just a higher proportion of non-fernentable protein, dextrin, etc.

 

[aeviaanah]

Hey guys I too want to brew low alcohol beer. I’ve been doing a few sober months here and there and just really enjoy the taste of beer.

My thoughts before reading about NE mashing was to mash a low OG beer hot and pair that with a yeast that doesn’t ferment maltriose.

Have you guys heard of this method? I’m hoping to do a test batch soon, Either what’s described in this video below or the NE mash.

 

[elproducto]

I've been working on an Ultra Low ABV beer for a while now, and I think I've landed on a recipe I'm going to keep. I've tried the cold/lem method, and to be honest it was more hassle than it was worth. The scorching in my grainfather was brutal.

The real turning point in this recipe was using a maltriose negative yeast like Windsor.. it left tons of body in what should be a really thin beer.

Props to Craig at Ultra Low Brewing for all of the information

https://share.brewfather.app/i7n4xJo4zPDH9P

 

[kmarkstevens]

Hey guys I too want to brew low alcohol beer. I’ve been doing a few sober months here and there and just really enjoy the taste of beer.

My thoughts before reading about NE mashing was to mash a low OG beer hot and pair that with a yeast that doesn’t ferment maltriose.

Have you guys heard of this method? I’m hoping to do a test batch soon, Either what’s described in this video below or the NE mash.

I've tried this. Unfortunately, I used Windsor 'cause I had it. I really don't like Windsor. Tainted my results and I quit experimenting quite a while back. I haven't tried with London ESB, which also doesn't ferment maltriose, but I like the London ESB far more than Windsor! I think I'll try again with London ESB once I get my life settled again (finalizing divorce).

I don't test for PH levels. Can I just add some acid malt to the grain bill?

 

[aeviaanah]

@elproducto Thankyou for sharing the recipe, it looks solid. Do you have any suggestions for an easy drinking lager? I’d like to start there before attempting IPA

Have you tried halting fermentation as a method to controlling ABV?

 

[aeviaanah]

I've tried this. Unfortunately, I used Windsor 'cause I had it. I really don't like Windsor. Tainted my results and I quit experimenting quite a while back. I haven't tried with London ESB, which also doesn't ferment maltriose, but I like the London ESB far more than Windsor! I think I'll try again with London ESB once I get my life settled again (finalizing divorce).

I don't test for PH levels. Can I just add some acid malt to the grain bill?

I’ve only used Windsor once a very long time ago when I was first home brewing. I remember because I had a bad experience…probably because it’s a low attenuator and I like dry beer. London ESB sounds like a good sub.

Try Brufather and trust the ph calculations. I typically acidify both the mash and post boil in all recipes. It seems with the low ABV beer you want to get post boil to 4.8 or so which is a little lower than typical (5.0-5.2). I doubt you’ll achieve 4.8 post boil ph with standard 5.2-5.6ph at mash (measured cool). So, you’ll want to plan on both a mash and post boil pH addition. I’ve gotten really good at eyeballing this commercially in the kettle but I always rely on measurements in the mash.

 

[aeviaanah]

I've been working on an Ultra Low ABV beer for a while now, and I think I've landed on a recipe I'm going to keep. I've tried the cold/lem method, and to be honest it was more hassle than it was worth. The scorching in my grainfather was brutal.

The real turning point in this recipe was using a maltriose negative yeast like Windsor.. it left tons of body in what should be a really thin beer.

Props to Craig at Ultra Low Brewing for all of the information

https://share.brewfather.app/i7n4xJo4zPDH9P

What’s the logic with the 10m hop stand? We’re usually around 30-45m.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This was mentioned in a recent topic here at HomeBrewTalk. (link to London™ product information page)

"Lallemand Brewing will no longer be producing LalBrew London™ in the foreseeable future. [...]"​

​

IIRC, Köln™ (link) was mentioned last week in a /r/homebrewing topic.

 

[aeviaanah]

This was mentioned in a recent topic here at HomeBrewTalk. (link to London™ product information page)

"Lallemand Brewing will no longer be producing LalBrew London™ in the foreseeable future. [...]"​

​

IIRC, Köln™ (link) was mentioned last week in a /r/homebrewing topic.

Is this London ale 3?

 

[elproducto]

Is this London ale 3?

No, Verdant is the dry LA3 equivilant.

 

[aeviaanah]

this strain doesn’t ferment maltose and maltriose

https://www.aeb-group.com/us/fermo-brew-nectar-6580/500-g-pack_158

 

[Alan Reginato]

Update!

FG stopped at 1.009. It means only 0,9% ABV. Not sure why or how. There's a burnt flavour, not that strong. And it's super bitter, even to me. But I'm not done, yet.

Trying to save this batch, added 3 kg of inverted sugar along with 5 L of water. Throw out the yeast cake, where the burnt flavour was more intense, and had to transfer back and forth between fermenters and the kettle. Also, added a new yeast package. Everything sanitised with alcohol.

Let's see how it goes.

I thought of naming this beer: Disaster Batch. If end up drinkable.

Well, I might have saved this batch. Now it's ABV is 3,5% and FG 1.007. The burnt taste still there, but much more subtle. The smell is imperceptible. And the beer, besides still green, is drinkable.

If I had some midnight wheat (or similar) at hand, I would use it to turn it into a stout. It should match perfectly the burnt flavour, someone could think of too much black malt.
If someone got scorched wort, it's a way to go.

I thought of adding some spices at priming syrup, maybe cinnamon and clove, because I got none from the saison yeast (quite uncommon). How about that?

 

[mashdar]

Well, I might have saved this batch. Now it's ABV is 3,5% and FG 1.007. The burnt taste still there, but much more subtle. The smell is imperceptible. And the beer, besides still green, is drinkable.

If I had some midnight wheat (or similar) at hand, I would use it to turn it into a stout. It should match perfectly the burnt flavour, someone could think of too much black malt.
If someone got scorched wort, it's a way to go.

I thought of adding some spices at priming syrup, maybe cinnamon and clove, because I got none from the saison yeast (quite uncommon). How about that?

Was there a typo? 1.009 was 0.9%, but 1.007 is 3.5%?

 

[DuncB]

Was there a typo? 1.009 was 0.9%, but 1.007 is 3.5%?

He says

" Trying to save this batch, added 3 kg of inverted sugar along with 5 L of water."

Hence gravity bump.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Poured an early bottle of what I brewed in #215.

Session strength (roughly 5%) and it's a very malt forward beer - and probably needs more (20?) IBUs.

No off flavors related to grain particles or scorching. Extra time (gravity) and leaving wort behind were key contributors.

Will I brew it again (adding extra IBUs)? Probably.

The book in the background is Microbrewed Adventures.

 

[mashdar]

Poured an early bottle of what I brewed in #215.

Session strength (roughly 5%) and it's a very malt forward beer - and probably needs more (20?) IBUs.

Was the pale malt used in a regular mash? I see munich and crystal listed in cold steeps, but may have missed pale process.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Was the pale malt used in a regular mash?

Yes, it was.

The strike water for the regular mash (on brew day) included the wort from cold extraction & cold steep.

The process (in #215) may be best described as a "double mash" where the first "mash" is a cold extraction.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Session strength (roughly 5%) and it's a very malt forward beer - and probably needs more (20?) IBUs.

FWIW, inspired by this (link), I dosed a glass with additional S04 this evening. Still malt forward, but has a better (for me anyway) finish

 

[beersk]

Hey, all. Been a while... I'm looking to cut back my alcohol consumption an extreme amount, have been considering just not drinking alcohol at all anymore for health reasons. But I'm having the hardest time with the idea of giving up brewing.
The NA beers on the market are pretty unappealing and extremely cost prohibitive. So, I'm wanting to get back into brewing extremely low abv beer. I think I could probably be OK with sub 2% abv beer. I made an Irish Red for my nitro tap back in fall of 2021 that was decent, but that's the last time I've done this method. I am thinking to do another one this weekend with some wy1084 I have going.

Has anyone brewed with this method lately? I think the key to this is to use some specialty malts. The beers I made with only base malts tasted a bit weird. But the Irish Red I made had some crystal malts and it had a much better flavor. My only complaint was maybe it lacked body, but that is to be expected for a very low abv beer I think. The key though is to keep the OG down and those caramel malts add sugar.

 

[Agent]

I'd agree that using plenty of specialty malts is key, namely for the dextrins and other unfermentables that give body.

My current go-to is a porter-style. Going off memory, it's 50-100% 15L Dark Munich, some Crystal 60/80 and a good chunk of chocolate malt. I'm only steeping for 60 minutes at 50-70f. The cold water doesn't seem to extract color as thoroughly, so I like bumping up specialties 25-50% over a standard recipe.

Unfortunately my last batch used an old liquid yeast that took a looong time to start and picked up some mustiness.

Otherwise, it clocks in at 1.4% and serves beautifully on nitro.

 

[beersk]

I still treated these the same I would a hot mash and added salts and lactic or phosphoric acid to adjust the pH. But perhaps they would benefit from further lowering of the pH. I'm not sure.

I never considered this until now but some of this "different" flavor could be from needing to lower the pH further because there isn't enough fermentation to lower the pH into proper levels. Without a pH meter I can't measure precisely. But if one were to acidify, as they normally do, to a level of, say, pH 5.3 in the mash then maybe slightly post-boil, this still wouldn't be enough to bring the pH down to levels you'd normally see in regular strength beers because there is less fermentation activity and less for the yeast to do. Or am I off base on that?
If not, this could be a key component to improving these beers. I guess if anyone has taken a pH reading of a cold mashed finished beer without extra acidification to see what the final reading is, we would know for sure...

 

[hamachi]

Has anyone brewed with this method lately? I think the key to this is to use some specialty malts.

Based on a previous experiment which I described in this thread but never reported back on, I concluded that for low ABV beers, conventional mashing with less grain works just as well and is simpler & less wasteful compared to the cold mash method. If you go the conventional route, specialty malts, high mash temperature, and weakly attenuative yeast are key. A couple of months ago, I brewed a decent 1.5% ABV English bitter this way.

 

[beersk]

Based on a previous experiment which I described in this thread but never reported back on, I concluded that for low ABV beers, conventional mashing with less grain works just as well and is simpler & less wasteful compared to the cold mash method. If you go the conventional route, specialty malts, high mash temperature, and weakly attenuative yeast are key. A couple of months ago, I brewed a decent 1.5% ABV English bitter this way.

Did you post the recipe somewhere? I may have missed it.