Lots of electric lurking. Why so much BIAB?

[rtt121]

Seems like a lot of guys here are building or using controllers just to BIAB?

To me the logical progression would be to get out of the bag.. then think about going electric and getting into controllers.

Am I missing something?

 

[LandoLincoln]

Eh. Electric is very convenient, and BIAB keeps costs of equipment down and reduces complexity.

 

[rtt121]

Eh. Electric is very convenient, and BIAB keeps costs of equipment down and reduces complexity.

I may be wrong. But no one building a controller is interested in reducing complexity.

I agree with electric being convenient.. but until ready for rims or herms I don't see it unless you get more enjoyment out of building circuits than brewing beer.

 

[rtt121]

Just re read the last post. I didn't mean to sound like a d#$^ haha.

I am planning a herms build and while i have the vessels already. I just can't imagine putting one of these controllers together to do anything less.

 

[bigmike99]

For me Ebiab is perfect because I can do it indoors and keep the footprint small which I need now. The beer I've made via BIAB have all come out great.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Not sure on that one. I have no interest on building a controller, but I would like to eventually move to an electric heat source.

 

[rtt121]

For me Ebiab is perfect because I can do it indoors and keep the footprint small which I need now. The beer I've made via BIAB have all come out great.

Small footprint I get.

Also wasn't knocking BIAB for quality. I have tasted some great BIAB brews.

Homebrewers are the "never finished tinkering" types of people... to me I want all my brewing equipment fully tinkered out before I start tinkering with control panels.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I may be wrong. But no one building a controller is interested in reducing complexity.

I agree with electric being convenient.. but until ready for rims or herms I don't see it unless you get more enjoyment out of building circuits than brewing beer.

There's a lot of people on here that want to brew in their basement, don't want to mess with natural gas lines and want to spend as little money and time as possible building a controller. Electric BIAB is for them.

 

[rtt121]

There's a lot of people on here that want to brew in their basement, don't want to mess with natural gas lines and want to spend as little money and time as possible building a controller. Electric BIAB is for them.

I guess that is what hits the nail on the head. If your bottom line is little money and time.. BIAB all the way.

But then throw in adding a controller and it doesn't fit into the original bottom line.

Its like having the cockpit of a Boeing 747 in your single engine Cesna.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I guess that is what hits the nail on the head. If your bottom line is little money and time.. BIAB all the way.

But then throw in adding a controller and it doesn't fit into the original bottom line.

Its like having the cockpit of a Boeing 747 in your single engine Cesna.

I wouldn't say that. All you really need for a BIAB controller is a PID and an SSR and a plug to plug the thermo probe into.

 

[Foosier]

You may also need to qualify what you mean by "controller". I don't think most folks doing EBIAB are building full Kal clones. You just need a way to control the power to the element so you can control the boil easily. You can go a bit further and add a PID to maintain temps and add a pump to re-circulate if you want to get crazy. Most of these options seem to lend themselves to much less complex controllers.

I am still doing BIAB via propane, but the concept of going electric is very appealing. I like BIAB for the simplicity of it. I tend to like to take the most direct route to get what I want so a lot of the 3 vessel sculptures don't appeal to me. Plus, I really don't want something that can't be broken down and is going to take up a bunch of space.

 

[rtt121]

Good thoughts. Not convincing me to switch of course but I think I get it.

 

[Hello]

I disagree with you, mostly. First, I would never be able to tell if a beer was brewed using a traditional 3-vessel system or BIAB. Many people like that smaller footprint and slightly easier way of moving to all grain. If you're looking to move to all grain and you're thinking about things like space and money, I can certainly say that BIAB is great. Just because you later added a control panel and moved to electric doesn't suggest that your only goal was cost savings. People grow and those happy with BIAB may find that their next logical move is electric. Why mess with a system that you enjoy brewing on just because you moved to electric?

Yes, many home brewers are constant tinkerers, but that doesn't mean that they don't have an end game. Mine is single tier 15 gallon eHERMS. Someone else's may be all electric BIAB. Neither is right or wrong.

Initially I started thinking about costs. Then I realized I wanted to move to all grain and thought 3 vessel was how it should be. If someone had told me about BIAB more and showed me how to manage the bag after mashing then I bet I would have been fine with BIAB. Again, I cannot tell the difference when a beer is made via BIAB or with a 3-vessel system.

 

[rtt121]

I disagree with you, mostly. First, I would never be able to tell if a beer was brewed using a traditional 3-vessel system or BIAB. Many people like that smaller footprint and slightly easier way of moving to all grain. If you're looking to move to all grain and you're thinking about things like space and money, I can certainly say that BIAB is great. Just because you later added a control panel and moved to electric doesn't suggest that your only goal was cost savings. People grow and those happy with BIAB may find that their next logical move is electric. Why mess with a system that you enjoy brewing on just because you moved to electric?

Yes, many home brewers are constant tinkerers, but that doesn't mean that they don't have an end game. Mine is single tier 15 gallon eHERMS. Someone else's may be all electric BIAB. Neither is right or wrong.

Initially I started thinking about costs. Then I realized I wanted to move to all grain and thought 3 vessel was how it should be. If someone had told me about BIAB more and showed me how to manage the bag after mashing then I bet I would have been fine with BIAB. Again, I cannot tell the difference when a beer is made via BIAB or with a 3-vessel system.

Hello Hello.

I see your point on why someone would progress from BIAB to BIAB with a controller.. to me it would always go BIAB - More Vessels - Controller.

I don't see what you are disagreeing with? It seems you read me saying I can tell the difference between a good BIAB and a good Herms brew. I actually said the opposite " I have had great BIAB brews" They were BIAB brews only because I knew they were brewed that way.. not because I could taste the difference.

 

[geoffm33]

I think the issue is that you are basing your opinion of the logical progression on your personal preferences. Many people have no desire to go multi-vessel and love to brew using the BIAB method. So they choose to build controllers for simple tasks, or more complex step mashes based on their goals.

Temp control is key to good beer and has nothing to do with the brewing method (BIAB vs Traditional 3 vessel).

 

[rtt121]

I think the issue is that you are basing your opinion of the logical progression on your personal preferences.

I think your right! That is why I started the thread.. what the he$$ is wrong with MY logic. haha

EDIT: FWIW my logic still makes the most sense to me. But I think I can see what others are thinking now.

 

[Hello]

Hello Hello.

I see your point on why someone would progress from BIAB to BIAB with a controller.. to me it would always go BIAB - More Vessels - Controller.

I don't see what you are disagreeing with? It seems you read me saying I can tell the difference between a good BIAB and a good Herms brew. I actually said the opposite " I have had great BIAB brews" They were BIAB brews only because I knew they were brewed that way.. not because I could taste the difference.

Where I was disagreeing, and failed to really explain that, is with the logic that progression or growth is only done by way of moving to a 3-vessel system. I do believe BIAB can be the be all end all for some brewers.

 

[rtt121]

10-4 I am on your page now.

 

[rtt121]

I think I am out of step with the current homebrewing scene. The latest thread is a 2 year BIAB going pro.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

I may be wrong. But no one building a controller is interested in reducing complexity.

I agree with electric being convenient.. but until ready for rims or herms I don't see it unless you get more enjoyment out of building circuits than brewing beer.

Quite true, I am trying to complicate the hell out of it. I have been successful at that. I have gone thru 3 controller upgrades before getting what I wanted. Now, I'm redoing it again to be Arduino controlled and monitored via a linux based web server. Fortunately, I love tinkering and have the time and space.

 

[Gavin C]

I think the question is very interesting as I debate which way I may go in the future myself. It's a case of when I move to electric brewing rather than if.

I have really enjoyed putting together and researching my BIAB setup. I know I would really enjoy piecing together a three vessel system too.

Without going electric I don't believe I would have the control needed for step mashing, recirculation etc. These are things I would love to try which I don't feel capable of with my current BIAB setup. That's not to say it can't be done; I'm sure folks more adept than I can do it.

I like the comfort of brewing indoors in my kitchen and have no plans to change that indoor aspect of things.

My brewing is my hobby and an all electric single tier three vessel setup would be immense fun to put together, researching the various options etc. As would an eBIAB build albeit less complex.

If push came to shove and I had to decide which way to go I would probably go with the former. A fixed, clean in place automated, electric setup would be a wonderful way to open up a wider array of more complex brewing options to me. I am a veritable novice so any changes to my current system are not in my immediate plans as I really want to master my current rudimentary setup.

Just my thoughts; probably of minimal value to the OP.

 

[rtt121]

I think the question is very interesting as I debate which way I may go in the future myself. It's a case of when I move to electric brewing rather than if.

I have really enjoyed putting together and researching my BIAB setup. I know I would really enjoy piecing together a three vessel system too.

Without going electric I don't believe I would have the control needed for step mashing, recirculation etc. These are things I would love to try which I don't feel capable of with my current BIAB setup. That's not to say it can't be done; I'm sure folks more adept than I can do it.

I like the comfort of brewing indoors in my kitchen and have no plans to change that indoor aspect of things.

My brewing is my hobby and an all electric single tier three vessel setup would be immense fun to put together, researching the various options etc. As would an eBIAB build albeit less complex.

If push came to shove and I had to decide which way to go I would probably go with the former. A fixed, clean in place automated, electric setup would be a wonderful way to open up a wider array of more complex brewing options to me. I am a veritable novice so any changes to my current system are not in my immediate plans as I really want to master my current rudimentary setup.

Just my thoughts; probably of minimal value to the OP.

Your logic makes sense to me. BIAB as end all does not.

To each his own though.

 

[Yooper]

Seems like a lot of guys here are building or using controllers just to BIAB?

To me the logical progression would be to get out of the bag.. then think about going electric and getting into controllers.

Am I missing something?

Here's something to think about!

I have a pretty cool all-electric indoor three vessel single tier HERMS. Even though I use all three vessels the standard way, I recently added a bag to my mashtun. It helps so much with my bottom draining MLT that can clog easily by minute particles of grain that go through my (expensive) false bottom.

So, I'm a BIAB three vessel brewer, and I recently started batch sparging.

I would say that there isn't any "one size fits all" system, and there is nothing inexpert about BIAB. I still make great beer, hit my mash pH numbers, have great clarity in my final product, etc- but clean up is easier and the system works perfectly without a single stuck mash or sparge, or grainbed compaction from the pumps now with the bag.

The brewer makes the beer, whether it's a BIAB system or a traditional three vessel system. Using a bag now doesn't make me less of a brewer than I was without it.

If I had it to do all over again, I probably would not go with a traditional three vessel single tier system, and if I had an outdoor brewery set up, say in the garage, I can easily see myself using a BIAB set up.

The BIAB only means lautering is easier, and that's about it. It's still brewing.

 

[rtt121]

Yooper! Finally a name I recognize from when I frequented here.

Your devil's advocate comments are noted.

I will play the other hand:

The following is just a story:
I have been putting apple juice into a carboy and then adding dry yeast.. sometimes I add dextrose sugar. This comes out as hard cider and it is spectacular. My friend has been been brewing for 15 years and has a 31 gallon system with 2 pumps and kettle that is heated by steam. He calculates yeast populations with a microscope. He makes some good beer but it isnt any better than my hard cider. He tries to say he is a better brewer... but I beg to differ as my product is equal to his. Actually most of our friends prefer the cider - So maybe I am the better brewer.

 

[rtt121]

My throught process made me think of something else.

I can't remember where I listened to it. It was a podcast or maybe an audiobook. But the overall message in the podcast or the chapter was that as science progresses there will come a day when we can take a cup of water add some CO2, some ethanol, and some powered brew mix that will equal or better beers brewed in a traditional sense.

If the end product defines the brewer and not the process where does this guy fall?

EDIT: I believe it was "The Brewmaster's Art" by Prof. Charles Bamforth

 

[Yooper]

The following is just a story:
I have been putting apple juice into a carboy and then adding dry yeast.. sometimes I add dextrose sugar. This comes out as hard cider and it is spectacular. My friend has been been brewing for 15 years and has a 31 gallon system with 2 pumps and kettle that is heated by steam. He calculates yeast populations with a microscope. He makes some good beer but it isnt any better than my hard cider. He tries to say he is a better brewer... but I beg to differ as my product is equal to his. Actually most of our friends prefer the cider - So maybe I am the better brewer.

How many competitions has he won, and how many have you won? My friends like my beer, sure, but the proof of an actual "good" beer or cider is by impartial experienced judges.

I think that many brewers have what I've called "ugly baby syndrome". You know what I mean- parents have this hideously ugly child but think he/she is the most beautiful baby ever born. Brewers are sometimes that way- they don't taste astringency, esters, phenols, etc in their own beers because they are their ugly babies.

So, for me to say, "I ferment at 85 degrees and my beer is awesome" (as an example) doesn't mean all that much unless I show you the medals I won with it.

But, here's the thing- if I love my beer, even if I suffer from UBS, and I love the brewing process I have- then it's exactly the right process for me.

I've had some awesome beers come out of BIAB brewer's set ups, and I've had some terrible beers sent to me by traditional three vessel brewers. Unless they are actually looking for honest feedback, what I think doesn't matter a bit.

I think BIAB in a pot is as valid a brewing technique as my 'fancy' all electric HERMS. If some electric controls make a brew session more dependable and reliable for a BIAB brewer, and they want to do it, then it's the correct thing to do.

My single tier takes up quite a bit of room, and can be a pain to clean. There are advantages to simplifying for sure!

 

[geoffm33]

My throught process made me think of something else.

I can't remember where I listened to it. It was a podcast or maybe an audiobook. But the overall message in the podcast or the chapter was that as science progresses there will come a day when we can take a cup of water add some CO2, some ethanol, and some powered brew mix that will equal or better beers brewed in a traditional sense.

If the end product defines the brewer and not the process where does this guy fall?

EDIT: I believe it was "The Brewmaster's Art" by Prof. Charles Bamforth

Is this a tangential thought or are you making parallels to 3V vs BIAB?

Because the only difference between the two is the mash process. Everything leading up to, and everything after the mash is the same.

 

[rtt121]

How many competitions has he won, and how many have you won? My friends like my beer, sure, but the proof of an actual "good" beer or cider is by impartial experienced judges.

You comments are all good. And I am just entertaining the conversation at this point not so much trying to prove anything. But to answer your hypothetical question about my hypothetical story:

I have been doing this for about 3 years. I have entered my cider into only 3 competitions for lack of interest in the competitive side but all three won 1st place in their category. My friend does competitions all the time and has entered over 100 of them. His best finish is a second place and that only happened once.

 

[rtt121]

Is this a tangential thought or are you making parallels to 3V vs BIAB?

Because the only difference between the two is the mash process. Everything leading up to, and everything after the mash is the same.

It was both. I see your point and I agree.

I think I was attacking that argument from the sense that the end product is all that matters. My next post about powerdered brew is probably a better example of the point I was trying to make.

 

[smizak]

I have entered my cider into only 3 competitions for lack of interest in the competitive side but all three won 1st place in their category. My friend does competitions all the time and has entered over 100 of them. His best finish is a second place and that only happened once.

FYI it's typically much easier to place in ciders, simply because you are most likely in the low single digit entries per category, compared to +20 in pale ales or stouts in a typical +300 entry comp. Much lower competition.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

IMO a controller doesn't add complexity but rather simplifies things. It makes hitting and maintaining temps a piece of cake. Doesn't matter whether it's BIAB or 3 vessel HERMS.

 

[ManiacalJ]

I see no reason to get away from BIAB before adding controllers etc.
I built my setup as a PID controlled eBIAB system with recirculation.

I went BIAB because I could start for cheaper - big stainless pots, coolers, and weldless fittings add up quickly. I happened to have a spa panel available for cheap, so it cost me about the same as setting up for propane. Now that I am running with it, I see no reason to change, for many of the benefits of BIAB already mentioned, regardless of how it is controlled.

FWIW, the control panel cost me about $75. Even if it were controlling nothing, it's a quick an easy place to plug in pumps (I have one for my watercooled SSR, one for recirculating, and and one for pumping cold water through my immersion chiller), and gives a constant digital readout of temps.

Benefits off the top of my head to a PID controlled system, even on BIAB:
- I have no need to calculate temps for mashing, if I mash in and end up low, I am at temperature in 2-3 mins anyway.
- I have one pot to clean when I am done
- no need to mess around with vorlaufing, lautering, stuck sparges, etc.
- easily controlled boil strength
- Cold weather brewing - the PID controlled element keeps me at temp regardless of how much heat loss there is
- Much easier to turn the element off using the PID that to unplug it from power every time

There are many more, but some of us like the simplicity of it being automatically controlled, but see no benefit to moving to a 3 vessel system.

 

[rtt121]

FYI it's typically much easier to place in ciders, simply because you are most likely in the low single digit entries per category, compared to +20 in pale ales or stouts in a typical +300 entry comp. Much lower competition.

Really? I said the story was fake.

 

[smizak]

Really? I said the story was fake.

Oh forgive me. Missed that. Carry on.

 

[Lynchy217]

Seems like a lot of guys here are building or using controllers just to BIAB?

To me the logical progression would be to get out of the bag.. then think about going electric and getting into controllers.

Am I missing something?

For me, it's because I have an apartment and don't really have an outside place to fire up a gas burner. I don't really have the money to drop on a 3 vessel system and space is at a premium. I'm also an EE, so I do like building circuits =]. eBIAB seems like the perfect solution to me.

 

[Hello]

Really? I said the story was fake.

You lost me on the point of it then.
You said.

I think I was attacking that argument from the sense that the end product is all that matters.

Are you saying the end product is not all that matters?

Your friend, the guy who brews and such, you say his home brew isn't as good as your ciders and that your friends prefer cider anyway. You come out of that thinking you're the better brewer, I believe. That is fine, but you're comparing apples to oranges here. If I give my mom a cider and say my cousin brewed it and I give her a beer and say I brewed it, that beer could be award-winning but she'll say the cider is better. Is he the better brewer? No, apples and oranges.

It is clear that you do not believe the end game for a setup can be BIAB, that is fine because it is your opinion. That is indeed the end game for many people and it is a wonderful end game. If you can add powder to water and somehow add ethanol and CO2 and come out with awesome beer than great. I said it in my little interview, brewing to me is like art. Just because a painting is done in water color doesn't make it any less beautiful than a painting done with oil. In the end, you still have beautiful art.

I just don't think it is rational to carry on about how you cannot understand why BIAB is an end game for some. Do you believe beer brewed in that method is sub-standard? Now that you had someone weigh in that you clearly recognize (Yooper) that she is using a bag in her MLT, do you have more respect for BIAB or is it that she still uses 3 vessels that makes her brewing process "better". I guarantee that her beers have been brewed by many both using extract and BIAB. I happen to know her oatmeal stout was brewed by a friend who uses BIAB and it is wonderful. I attribute that to the recipe being sound first and the brewer being skilled second. I mean, if the recipe sucked then why do people go to it often and brew it?

 

[rtt121]

Are you saying the end product is not all that matters?

Your friend, the guy who brews and such, you say his home brew isn't as good as your ciders and that your friends prefer cider anyway. You come out of that thinking you're the better brewer, I believe. That is fine, but you're comparing apples to oranges here. If I give my mom a cider and say my cousin brewed it and I give her a beer and say I brewed it, that beer could be award-winning but she'll say the cider is better. Is he the better brewer? No, apples and oranges.

Wow I may have stirred the pot a bit too much.

Lets go backwards and forget the apples and oranges analogy.. because your right.. not a fair comparison. The brewing with ethanol and beer powder is much better. If we produce the exact same beer one you brewed in your BIAB or 3v or 2v method and one that I (in the future) brewed by adding a touch of ethanol and spoonfull of beer powder and then shooting it with C02. Arent you the better brewer? Yes you are.. i didnt do anything but mix ingredients. The point there being the process does matter. You brewed and I didnt. I think my thought here is that at somepoint the process is so dumbed down... it doesn't feel like brewing TO ME (I am NOT saying it isn't brewing!)

It is clear that you do not believe the end game for a setup can be BIAB, that is fine because it is your opinion. That is indeed the end game for many people and it is a wonderful end game.

You are right and wrong here. I DO believe it can be the end game for some people. Just not for me.


I am going to back off now. I wasn't trying to change anyone views really just trying to broaden my own.

Hello I found your last post to be attacking while all I was trying to do is make conversation and try to understand why so many people are BIAB

 

[LandoLincoln]

A better question would be "why do so many homebrewers use three vessels when they can do it with one?" That's the harder question to answer.

 

[rtt121]

A better question would be "why do so many homebrewers use three vessels when they can do it with one?" That's the harder question to answer.

Maybe your right.

Being the my personal experience with BIAB is slim. Do you feel you can get the wort left in the pot as clear as wort that was recirculated through a seperate vessel?

 

[doug293cz]

More than 2/3 of actual BIAB brewers do see BIAB as the be all and end all, based on a recent poll on HBT. In the separate reply posts to the poll, I did not see any compelling arguments that there was something that could be done with 3 vessel that could not be done with BIAB (other than large industrial scale batches.)

In all of our cases, brewing is a hobby from which we derive pleasure (and BEER! ). How we approach our hobby is all about personal preference. There is no right or wrong answer to: "what is the best brewing method?" Everyone has to decide for themselves: "what is the best method for me?" Debating is pointless.

Being the my personal experience with BIAB is slim. Do you feel you can get the wort left in the pot as clear as wort that was recirculated through a seperate vessel?

There is empirical evidence that clear wort makes no difference to the quality or clarity of the finished beer. If getting clearer wort makes you happy however, then go for it. Nothing wrong with that.

Brew on