Lots of electric lurking. Why so much BIAB?

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

IMO a controller doesn't add complexity but rather simplifies things. It makes hitting and maintaining temps a piece of cake. Doesn't matter whether it's BIAB or 3 vessel HERMS.

 

[ManiacalJ]

I see no reason to get away from BIAB before adding controllers etc.
I built my setup as a PID controlled eBIAB system with recirculation.

I went BIAB because I could start for cheaper - big stainless pots, coolers, and weldless fittings add up quickly. I happened to have a spa panel available for cheap, so it cost me about the same as setting up for propane. Now that I am running with it, I see no reason to change, for many of the benefits of BIAB already mentioned, regardless of how it is controlled.

FWIW, the control panel cost me about $75. Even if it were controlling nothing, it's a quick an easy place to plug in pumps (I have one for my watercooled SSR, one for recirculating, and and one for pumping cold water through my immersion chiller), and gives a constant digital readout of temps.

Benefits off the top of my head to a PID controlled system, even on BIAB:
- I have no need to calculate temps for mashing, if I mash in and end up low, I am at temperature in 2-3 mins anyway.
- I have one pot to clean when I am done
- no need to mess around with vorlaufing, lautering, stuck sparges, etc.
- easily controlled boil strength
- Cold weather brewing - the PID controlled element keeps me at temp regardless of how much heat loss there is
- Much easier to turn the element off using the PID that to unplug it from power every time

There are many more, but some of us like the simplicity of it being automatically controlled, but see no benefit to moving to a 3 vessel system.

 

[rtt121]

FYI it's typically much easier to place in ciders, simply because you are most likely in the low single digit entries per category, compared to +20 in pale ales or stouts in a typical +300 entry comp. Much lower competition.

Really? I said the story was fake.

 

[smizak]

Really? I said the story was fake.

Oh forgive me. Missed that. Carry on.

 

[Lynchy217]

Seems like a lot of guys here are building or using controllers just to BIAB?

To me the logical progression would be to get out of the bag.. then think about going electric and getting into controllers.

Am I missing something?

For me, it's because I have an apartment and don't really have an outside place to fire up a gas burner. I don't really have the money to drop on a 3 vessel system and space is at a premium. I'm also an EE, so I do like building circuits =]. eBIAB seems like the perfect solution to me.

 

[Hello]

Really? I said the story was fake.

You lost me on the point of it then.
You said.

I think I was attacking that argument from the sense that the end product is all that matters.

Are you saying the end product is not all that matters?

Your friend, the guy who brews and such, you say his home brew isn't as good as your ciders and that your friends prefer cider anyway. You come out of that thinking you're the better brewer, I believe. That is fine, but you're comparing apples to oranges here. If I give my mom a cider and say my cousin brewed it and I give her a beer and say I brewed it, that beer could be award-winning but she'll say the cider is better. Is he the better brewer? No, apples and oranges.

It is clear that you do not believe the end game for a setup can be BIAB, that is fine because it is your opinion. That is indeed the end game for many people and it is a wonderful end game. If you can add powder to water and somehow add ethanol and CO2 and come out with awesome beer than great. I said it in my little interview, brewing to me is like art. Just because a painting is done in water color doesn't make it any less beautiful than a painting done with oil. In the end, you still have beautiful art.

I just don't think it is rational to carry on about how you cannot understand why BIAB is an end game for some. Do you believe beer brewed in that method is sub-standard? Now that you had someone weigh in that you clearly recognize (Yooper) that she is using a bag in her MLT, do you have more respect for BIAB or is it that she still uses 3 vessels that makes her brewing process "better". I guarantee that her beers have been brewed by many both using extract and BIAB. I happen to know her oatmeal stout was brewed by a friend who uses BIAB and it is wonderful. I attribute that to the recipe being sound first and the brewer being skilled second. I mean, if the recipe sucked then why do people go to it often and brew it?

 

[rtt121]

Are you saying the end product is not all that matters?

Your friend, the guy who brews and such, you say his home brew isn't as good as your ciders and that your friends prefer cider anyway. You come out of that thinking you're the better brewer, I believe. That is fine, but you're comparing apples to oranges here. If I give my mom a cider and say my cousin brewed it and I give her a beer and say I brewed it, that beer could be award-winning but she'll say the cider is better. Is he the better brewer? No, apples and oranges.

Wow I may have stirred the pot a bit too much.

Lets go backwards and forget the apples and oranges analogy.. because your right.. not a fair comparison. The brewing with ethanol and beer powder is much better. If we produce the exact same beer one you brewed in your BIAB or 3v or 2v method and one that I (in the future) brewed by adding a touch of ethanol and spoonfull of beer powder and then shooting it with C02. Arent you the better brewer? Yes you are.. i didnt do anything but mix ingredients. The point there being the process does matter. You brewed and I didnt. I think my thought here is that at somepoint the process is so dumbed down... it doesn't feel like brewing TO ME (I am NOT saying it isn't brewing!)

It is clear that you do not believe the end game for a setup can be BIAB, that is fine because it is your opinion. That is indeed the end game for many people and it is a wonderful end game.

You are right and wrong here. I DO believe it can be the end game for some people. Just not for me.


I am going to back off now. I wasn't trying to change anyone views really just trying to broaden my own.

Hello I found your last post to be attacking while all I was trying to do is make conversation and try to understand why so many people are BIAB

 

[LandoLincoln]

A better question would be "why do so many homebrewers use three vessels when they can do it with one?" That's the harder question to answer.

 

[rtt121]

A better question would be "why do so many homebrewers use three vessels when they can do it with one?" That's the harder question to answer.

Maybe your right.

Being the my personal experience with BIAB is slim. Do you feel you can get the wort left in the pot as clear as wort that was recirculated through a seperate vessel?

 

[doug293cz]

More than 2/3 of actual BIAB brewers do see BIAB as the be all and end all, based on a recent poll on HBT. In the separate reply posts to the poll, I did not see any compelling arguments that there was something that could be done with 3 vessel that could not be done with BIAB (other than large industrial scale batches.)

In all of our cases, brewing is a hobby from which we derive pleasure (and BEER! ). How we approach our hobby is all about personal preference. There is no right or wrong answer to: "what is the best brewing method?" Everyone has to decide for themselves: "what is the best method for me?" Debating is pointless.

Being the my personal experience with BIAB is slim. Do you feel you can get the wort left in the pot as clear as wort that was recirculated through a seperate vessel?

There is empirical evidence that clear wort makes no difference to the quality or clarity of the finished beer. If getting clearer wort makes you happy however, then go for it. Nothing wrong with that.

Brew on

 

[rtt121]

More than 2/3 of actual BIAB brewers do see BIAB as the be all and end all, based on a recent poll on HBT. In the separate reply posts to the poll, I did not see any compelling arguments that there was something that could be done with 3 vessel that could not be done with BIAB (other than large industrial scale batches.)

In all of our cases, brewing is a hobby from which we derive pleasure (and BEER! ). How we approach our hobby is all about personal preference. There is no right or wrong answer to: "what is the best brewing method?" Everyone has to decide for themselves: "what is the best method for me?" Debating is pointless.



There is empirical evidence that clear wort makes no difference to the quality or clarity of the finished beer. If getting clearer wort makes you happy however, then go for it. Nothing wrong with that.

Brew on

Agree with all of above. And thank you for that link. Like I said I have been out of it and clear wort is nice but I currently only vorlauf. This makes me feel better about it.

 

[soccerdad]

I resent the "ugly baby" analogy. I know my parents loved me, but let's just say there were some ... well .. um ... never mind.

More seriously, I foresee a day when one of the appliances you can have on any kitchen counter is a quality beer maker. The Baumeister IS this, but it's 3 grand. Prices will come down. Others will enter the market. It will very likely be electric, will recirculate for mash, have a filter that keeps the grain and hops out of the wort, and maybe even accounts for cooling and fermenting in the same vessel that you brewed in. Sorry if that's off topic.

 

[jbaysurfer]

There is empirical evidence that clear wort makes no difference to the quality or clarity of the finished beer. If getting clearer wort makes you happy however, then go for it. Nothing wrong with that.

Brew on

I'm a big fan of his, but he's the first to point out that's not an empirical study.

These exBEERiments were never intended to be super scientific in nature, I simply don’t have the resources, knowledge, or desire to design and perform actual experiments.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with mash technique; rather, it's about how much trub hits the fermenter.

 

[jeffmeh]

Subjective theory of value.... The only reason I would abandon BIAB for multiple vessels is if I wanted to brew batch sizes where the bag would be impractical to lift and drain. Fortunately I can lift a pretty heavy bag.

 

[Beek]

I don't understand how biab is inferior to three vessel brewing. You are literally doing the same thing but with one vessel instead of three. It's all grain brewing and it makes delicious beer.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm a big fan of his, but he's the first to point out that's not an empirical study.

These exBEERiments were never intended to be super scientific in nature, I simply don’t have the resources, knowledge, or desire to design and perform actual experiments.

I beg to differ. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical

1. originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>
2. relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory>

What Brülosopher provides is most certainly empirical evidence. His disclaimer means that his studies may not be comprehensive (cover all possibilities) or may not be totally rigorous in methodology. I have found what he does to be more rigorous than a lot of what is passed off as evidence around here.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with mash technique; rather, it's about how much trub hits the fermenter.

Why would someone be worried about clear wort, other than worrying about junk making it thru to the fermenter and affecting final product clarity? You do know that if the mash is even close to proper pH, then the boiled wort will be even lower pH, and thus there is no chance of extracting tannins, so fear of tannins in the boil is a non-starter. I will grant that if you have an electric element at too high a watt density, particulates in the wort could lead to problems with scorching and deposits on the element. But, there are better solutions to prevent those issues.

Brew on

 

[jbaysurfer]

I beg to differ. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical
What Brülosopher provides is most certainly empirical evidence. His disclaimer means that his studies may not be comprehensive (cover all possibilities) or may not be totally rigorous in methodology. I have found what he does to be more rigorous than a lot of what is passed off as evidence around here.



Why would someone be worried about clear wort, other than worrying about junk making it thru to the fermenter and affecting final product clarity? You do know that if the mash is even close to proper pH, then the boiled wort will be even lower pH, and thus there is no chance of extracting tannins, so fear of tannins in the boil is a non-starter. I will grant that if you have an electric element at too high a watt density, particulates in the wort could lead to problems with scorching and deposits on the element. But, there are better solutions to prevent those issues.

Brew on

Not gonna belabor this. The topic of the thread is (loosely) mashing techniques. You cited a study about a different topic to contest somebody, but it's clear you're going to "beg to differ" no matter what.

 

[doug293cz]

Not gonna belabor this. The topic of the thread is (loosely) mashing techniques. You cited a study about a different topic to contest somebody, but it's clear you're going to "beg to differ" no matter what.

What I begged to differ on was your incorrect understanding of the meaning of the word "empirical."

To your other point, the OP said in one of his many posts on this thread "clear wort is nice." I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that the preference for clear wort was related to a desire for clear beer. There are a lot of folks who assume clearer wort leads to clearer beer. I pointed to one experiment that showed wort clarity may not be correlated to beer clarity at all. There are also a lot of people who assume getting any grain bits (especially husk material) into the boil will lead to tannin extraction, so they want clear wort into the boil. So, my question about desirability of clear wort into the BK was a serious question. I would like to know if there is any empirical evidence that cloudy wort into the BK has caused identifiable problems? Maybe I could have worded it better.

If the OP's statement that "clear wort is nice," is just about aesthetics, then that is a reasonable opinion.

Brew on

 

[h22lude]

Subjective theory of value.... The only reason I would abandon BIAB for multiple vessels is if I wanted to brew batch sizes where the bag would be impractical to lift and drain. Fortunately I can lift a pretty heavy bag.

I have seen some 200 gallon grain bags. All you needs is a pulley system and you are good to go.

I don't understand how biab is inferior to three vessel brewing. You are literally doing the same thing but with one vessel instead of three. It's all grain brewing and it makes delicious beer.

I think what he is stuck on is the progression of a brewer. You first start off with a starter kit and partial boil extract on your stove. Then add steeping grains. Then maybe partial boil BIAB on your stove. Then BIAB full boil. Then cooler mash tun with BK. Then MT, BK, HLT. Then you add pumps and a controller.

To me, that sounded logical too. I did partial extract to steeping grains to full extract then to AG with cooler mash tun and 10 gallon BK with burner. I just spent a good few weeks to a month researching all types of 3 vessel set ups (both propane and electric). I thought the 3 vessel set up was the top of the line pro brewer in my house stuff. While it is very blingy and cool to show off, I came to the realization that as cool as a 3 vessel set up looks (we all love Kals set up), BIAB is so much easier. Brewing is still mashing, rinsing and boiling. You will do that in all systems. BIAB does it all in one pot which means a lot less clean up. Think of the 3 vessel system. Not only do you have 3 15 gallons pots to clean but you also have all that tubing, a few pumps, sparge arm, the list goes on. Cleaning can take a while with that system. BIAB has 1 pot, 1 pump and 1 hose.

I just ordered a recirculating ebiab system controlled by a tablet. It will keep my mash temp at any time I want. It recirculates my mash so I will get better efficiency and it will filter my wort to be clearer. It can easily do step mashes. All this is exactly like a 3 vessel system but with a lot less clean up and a hell of a lot cheaper. This system cost me about $1k total. A lot of 3 vessel electric control boxes cost more than that and then you still need to buy all the equipment.

I can never say never but I don't think I will ever go to a 3 vessel system. I love brewing and understand cleaning up is a big part of it (hell, pro brewers spend 90% of their time cleaning up) but for a hobby, I'd rather spend my time brewing rather than cleaning.

You are looking at the brewing progression like a video game console. Started off with NES, then SNES then N64 then Game Cube then Wii then Wii U. Each better than the previous (though I do still have my original NES hooked up to my TV lol). That isn't how brewing works. Each system makes the same beer. You are taking grain, soaking out the sugars and then boiling. There are many ways to do it but the process is still the same.

 

[dobes]

Just to throw it on I have a single tier 3 vessel HERMS set up. I've been using it for about a year now. A couple months ago I put a quick BIAB setup together to use that as well. I mainly did it so I could brew inside during the winter and be able to brew when my wife isn't around to help with the kids.

I like both setups for various reasons. I don't think one is better than the other. The BIAB is def easier to clean up which makes my brew day a little quicker so I don't need to set as much time aside for it. My HERMS is a 10 gallon system so even though time wise it may take bit longer I also can get double the volume.

Getting the BIAB has been a big help in getting my supply up. I used to only find one or two days a month to brew now if I wanted to with the BIAB I can prob find at least that every week if I wanted to.

I have done about 10 batches so far with my BIAB and have no complaints. Beers come out as good as on my HERMS. I see no difference in clarity between the 2.

I get many compliments from beers brewed on both systems and most people don't know which system they were brewed on.

I think if I would have started with BIAB first out of curiosity I would still have ventured to a three tier system.

But now I am fortunate to have both and would get rid of neither one because they both have their place in my brewing world.

 

[jeffmeh]

I have seen some 200 gallon grain bags. All you needs is a pulley system and you are good to go.

Absolutely true. And a motorized winch could pull it up as well. That said, at that volume it would be easier to pump the wort into a second vessel for the boil, and once you add a second vessel there are other options that would not require the bag. No right or wrong, just personal preference.

 

[h22lude]

My HERMS is a 10 gallon system so even though time wise it may take bit longer I also can get double the volume.

I'm trying to figure this out in my head and just can't seem to do the math right now lol. I think for most beers a 10 gallon 3 vessel system and a 10 gallon BIAB system, they will both make 10 gallons with 15 gallon pots. What the 3 vessel system can do is make 10 gallons of a big beer where a 10 gallon BIAB system may not have the room depending on amount of grain.

To make 10 gallons, both systems need a 15 gallon BK. The 3 vessel system would also need a MT and HLT which I think could be 10 gallons since not all the water will be in the MT at once.

 

[Snicklefritz]

I actually switched away from a traditional 3 vessel setup to eBIAB for three reasons.

1. Lower my footprint
2. Simplify and shorten the brew day
3. Easy to move indoors

In the end though, its all about what works best for you.

 

[FatDragon]

I have seen some 200 gallon grain bags. All you needs is a pulley system and you are good to go.



I think what he is stuck on is the progression of a brewer. You first start off with a starter kit and partial boil extract on your stove. Then add steeping grains. Then maybe partial boil BIAB on your stove. Then BIAB full boil. Then cooler mash tun with BK. Then MT, BK, HLT. Then you add pumps and a controller.

To me, that sounded logical too. I did partial extract to steeping grains to full extract then to AG with cooler mash tun and 10 gallon BK with burner. I just spent a good few weeks to a month researching all types of 3 vessel set ups (both propane and electric). I thought the 3 vessel set up was the top of the line pro brewer in my house stuff. While it is very blingy and cool to show off, I came to the realization that as cool as a 3 vessel set up looks (we all love Kals set up), BIAB is so much easier. Brewing is still mashing, rinsing and boiling. You will do that in all systems. BIAB does it all in one pot which means a lot less clean up. Think of the 3 vessel system. Not only do you have 3 15 gallons pots to clean but you also have all that tubing, a few pumps, sparge arm, the list goes on. Cleaning can take a while with that system. BIAB has 1 pot, 1 pump and 1 hose.

I just ordered a recirculating ebiab system controlled by a tablet. It will keep my mash temp at any time I want. It recirculates my mash so I will get better efficiency and it will filter my wort to be clearer. It can easily do step mashes. All this is exactly like a 3 vessel system but with a lot less clean up and a hell of a lot cheaper. This system cost me about $1k total. A lot of 3 vessel electric control boxes cost more than that and then you still need to buy all the equipment.

I can never say never but I don't think I will ever go to a 3 vessel system. I love brewing and understand cleaning up is a big part of it (hell, pro brewers spend 90% of their time cleaning up) but for a hobby, I'd rather spend my time brewing rather than cleaning.

You are looking at the brewing progression like a video game console. Started off with NES, then SNES then N64 then Game Cube then Wii then Wii U. Each better than the previous (though I do still have my original NES hooked up to my TV lol). That isn't how brewing works. Each system makes the same beer. You are taking grain, soaking out the sugars and then boiling. There are many ways to do it but the process is still the same.

Great post.

In the end, the only notable benefit of three-tier systems versus BIAB is the ability to do multiple batches consecutively. A multi-batch brewday would be much easier and quicker with a three-tier system than a BIAB system.

Then again, for the price and footprint of the three-tier system, you could have two or three BIAB systems and run them all concurrently...

 

[homebrewdr]

There are many ways to brew. I've brewed with a 3 tier, propane, keggle system before, but now I live in a small apartment. I brew with somewhat of a hybrid BIAB/ 3 tier system (at least conceptually) right in my kitchen and still knock out stellar brews. I don't see it as a downgrade at all. If anything, I see it as "smarter".

Heat source is the stove. Mash on my countertop (dont want the weight on my stove) with a 9 gallon kettle complete with ball valve, lined with a big B3 nylon bag. Use a 5 gallon kettle for sparging. I am able to stick a slotted spoon on the inside of the kettle near the ball valve, to keep the sparge from getting "stuck". Does the same thing as a fancy false bottom would, for the most part. I am still able to filter the wort with the grain bed. Collect wort in a bucket or 2. I still get good efficiency around 70-80%, or more if I do an overnight mash for a dry beer. Fortunately, boiling 7 gallons on a stovetop within 45 mins is no issue for me.

 

[h22lude]

I actually switched away from a traditional 3 vessel setup to eBIAB for three reasons.

1. Lower my footprint
2. Simplify and shorten the brew day
3. Easy to move indoors

In the end though, its all about what works best for you.

#3 should be easy to move anywhere. With BIAB, everything fits in the pot and can easily go to a friend's house.

Great post.

In the end, the only notable benefit of three-tier systems versus BIAB is the ability to do multiple batches consecutively. A multi-batch brewday would be much easier and quicker with a three-tier system than a BIAB system.

Then again, for the price and footprint of the three-tier system, you could have two or three BIAB systems and run them all concurrently...

Right, you can heat up strike water for the 2nd when finishing the 1st boil. Though that only works if you have a 50A breaker or 2 30A breakers. Which then leads to more money spent on the 3 vessel system.

 

[dobes]

I'm trying to figure this out in my head and just can't seem to do the math right now lol. I think for most beers a 10 gallon 3 vessel system and a 10 gallon BIAB system, they will both make 10 gallons with 15 gallon pots. What the 3 vessel system can do is make 10 gallons of a big beer where a 10 gallon BIAB system may not have the room depending on amount of grain.

To make 10 gallons, both systems need a 15 gallon BK. The 3 vessel system would also need a MT and HLT which I think could be 10 gallons since not all the water will be in the MT at once.

Can't disagree with anything there. I went with 5 gallon BIAB for a few reasons. I wanted to be able to brew inside. Spend as minimal money as possible. Keep it as simple as possible. I had most of the equipment just had to buy a heating element cause my stove isn't the greatest. My HERMS is from old kegs can't use them on my electric stove but I had an old turkey fryer pot that works good.

I guess in all reality if I got one more burner and a couple bags I could do 3 10 gallon batches on my HERMS system at once.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

My eHERMS doesn't take that much to clean, for starters I never clean the HLT and the coil gets cleaned by the sparge water. As for the MLT, well for either type of system you have to do something with the spent grain. I vacuum my MLT out with a shop vac and spray it down with the hose during the boil. I suppose with BIAB you could just throw the bag away, but seems like a lot of folks prefer to reuse them, so you have to dump the grain and at the very least put it in the washing machine.

In the end the part that's always a pain in the butt is the boil kettle and it's the same for either method. I probably spend more time back flushing my plate chiller than cleaning MLT and HLT.

BIAB has a smaller footprint and less equipment, but I like having a dedicated vessel for each part of the process (heat strike/sparge, mash, boil) especially for 5-10 gal batches. But I'm not a BIAB hater, in fact I'm building a small batch 120V recirculating eBIAB system right now.

I just think for all the pros vs cons it comes down to each brewer's personal preference and process.

 

[DU99]

i looked at all methods thought about it.went to a few demo's.worked out what i could afford and the time available..i am not knocking any system because it's what people can afford the available space they have.i would love to have automated system,but the cost's involved where for prohibitive for me.just see a demo of "thegrainfather"looks interesting.like a BIAB on steriods.ONE vessel.i end up doing 5gal BIAB..just a pot and bag no fancy controls.

 

[Hello]

Wow I may have stirred the pot a bit too much.

Lets go backwards and forget the apples and oranges analogy.. because your right.. not a fair comparison. The brewing with ethanol and beer powder is much better. If we produce the exact same beer one you brewed in your BIAB or 3v or 2v method and one that I (in the future) brewed by adding a touch of ethanol and spoonfull of beer powder and then shooting it with C02. Arent you the better brewer? Yes you are.. i didnt do anything but mix ingredients. The point there being the process does matter. You brewed and I didnt. I think my thought here is that at somepoint the process is so dumbed down... it doesn't feel like brewing TO ME (I am NOT saying it isn't brewing!)



You are right and wrong here. I DO believe it can be the end game for some people. Just not for me.


I am going to back off now. I wasn't trying to change anyone views really just trying to broaden my own.

Hello I found your last post to be attacking while all I was trying to do is make conversation and try to understand why so many people are BIAB

It was not intended to be attacking, for that I apologize that you were left with that feeling. All the same, your posts left me with a very similar impression. I was defensive of the entire craft of brewing that I believe you were discounting simply based on process. However, if you believe that I would be the better brewer because I use the traditional method and you add some futuristic powder to water and make beer then does that mean you don't believe those who make cider are brewing? I read your posts in such a way that you were seemingly discounting BIAB, which is an opinion I simply cannot share. I think people find the right tools for the job that make them comfortable. I can really appreciate that and I appreciate some of the ingenuity of all brewers.

A better question would be "why do so many homebrewers use three vessels when they can do it with one?" That's the harder question to answer.

That is a great question. Mine came down to not being able to really get the bag out high enough and hold it long enough to really drain. It was a right old mess. However, when I moved to all grain I read about BIAB but not much. I had no idea how great it could be. I think it's a great method with limitations only based on ability to lift the bag and pot size, two limitations that are easily remedied.

I vacuum my MLT out with a shop vac.

Really? What kind of shop vac do you have? I'd love to do this but I am thinking my shop vac won't suck up wet grain easily. It kind of seems like it sucks.