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Lost Krausen thru blowoff tube, good or bad!?!?

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Jakemo

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I have found several threads on this forum and elsewhere in the wide wide world of intarwebs that speak about, but fail to adequately address this topic:

My IPA finished the most vigorous part of it's fermentation cycle, and during said segment I was using a blowoff tube. The 5 gallon carboy was full to 5 gallons with wort, and there was maybe an inch of room for krausen.

About a quart's worth of stuff came out of the blowoff tube into the blowoff jar during active fermentation. Being that I had the jar half-full of sanitizing solution, I had to dump it twice. The first time, it basically looked like a healthy yeast starter. The second time, it looked similar, but smelled very hoppy.

Yesterday, I replaced the blowoff tube with an airlock. Upon cleaning the blowoff tube, it's actually stained green and has (what I can only assume to be permanent) a hoppy smell. :confused: I'm concerned that I may have lost a significant amount of good hop oils through the blowoff.

Some say "skim krausen," some say "don't touch it." Some say "bitter nasty hop oils are in the krausen so let that gunk cling to the sides or blow off." Some say "I always let the krausen fall entirely back in to the beer."

Let's see if we can come to a good, solid, definitive answer, shall we? Perhaps it's style-relevant: For beers using a lot of hops or a lot of heavily roasted grains, maybe it's best to let the krausen carry off the worst of the oils and flavors. Perhaps for lighter beers or less strongly-flavored beers, it doesn't matter.

What say you?
 
Jakemo, my first thought is that you need a bigger fermenter, 5 gallons for 5 gallons wont work and results in a blow off like you experienced. Usually you would leave a gallon to a gallon and a half of head space.
As for what to do know, just replace the airlock or blow tub and leave it alone...it will be fine, the majority of what you scene blow off would have fallen to the bottom in your trub.
 
Thanks, Slim. My next purchase, before I brew again, is going to be a 6.5 gallon carboy. I know the extra space is definitely a good thing. Thanks!
 
Kaiser did an experiment (posted here on his blog) that indicated that it does make a difference, not everyone will be able to tell, and it will likely 'age out' anyway.

I've always intentionally (i.e. by design) had blow-offs. I fill a 5 gal carboy up to the top 'ring' (higher for lagers) before pitching yeast. It usually blows-off a little but occasionally only makes it to the bung (in which case it clings to the neck area of the glass). I have two six gallon carboys and never use them because I want a little blow-off and all that beer won't fit into a 5 gal corny.

This is just my method but one way I gage fermentation is by how vigorous it is going (for a given strain). If it's going gangbusters then I'm fermenting too warm and I need to cool it down. So that's how I get away with only ~1.5 qt headspace and only get tiny amounts of blow-off. IMO, if you need a gallon and a half of headspace it's very possible you're fermenting too warm.
 
That post is a fascinating read for sure...It seems to halfway answer the question, since at the end he says that after the beers had aged a bit, it was significantly more difficult to tell the difference. I wonder what the results would be if he conducted the same experiment on a non-German style of beer, with a stronger hop profile?
 
Jakemo...SpanishCastleAle does point out another approach...Several German brewers feel the Krausen contains trub material and un-isomerized alpha acids that if not skimmed off will put a bittering effect in the beer...however many American Brewers do the opposite and allow the hops to bitter and add (depending on type) aroma to the beer. I have used both methods, but have found I get a better product by allowing head space for my primairy fermentation...when I find it neccessary to rack to a secondary (which I only do when adding fruit's or for long term conditioning) then I completely eliminate the head space....Summary, now that you have tried fermenting with zero head space, try brewing a 4 gallon batch in your 5 gallon fermenter, tell us which one you like better!
 
I think maybe what I'll do is brew this beer again once I get a 6.5 gallon carboy, then do a comparison. Side-by-side would be pointless since the beer I'm fermenting now will be potentially a month further along at that point. Either way, I'll have a really good idea of how the current brew tastes at that point, so the comparison will still serve. I'm also dry-hopping this beer, so any lost aroma is probably moot.

I'll report back here whenever I do find out how the next one turns out!

And that's an interesting observation on the differences of German brewers and American brewers, and I think that sums up most of the arguments for and against removing krausen.
 
As long as the beer is great, who cares how we do it! Let us know Jakemo how it turns out!
 
I hadn't thought of hop oil loss. I always blow off about one or two quarts or krausen to reduce fusel alcohols and thus hangovers.
 
Losing the krausen is probably somewhere between inconsequential and beneficial. If you are worried about losing hop aroma, then dry hop.
 
Hello Sick...here is a great article on why to leave fusel alcohols in the beer and allow the yeast to eat them and turn them in to fruity like esters ( http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-3.html ) I have converted to this method, which basically scraps racking to a secondary and allowing the yeast to clean up after fermentation has ended for 3 to 7 days, which eliminates the fusel alcohols and ethanols...its an interesting read!
 
Palmer makes a very good case for leaving the krausen intact, as well as longer primary fermentation.... Now the question becomes:
Do I dry hop in primary after 1 week of fermentation to allow "secondary" fermentation, then go straight to bottles to carbonate? Or do I let the beer sit in primary for additional 3 to 7 days then rack to secondary to dry hop for a week? Hmm.....
 
Palmer makes a very good case for leaving the krausen intact, as well as longer primary fermentation.... Now the question becomes:
Do I dry hop in primary after 1 week of fermentation to allow "secondary" fermentation, then go straight to bottles to carbonate? Or do I let the beer sit in primary for additional 3 to 7 days then rack to secondary to dry hop for a week? Hmm.....

I don't think Palmer makes any case along these lines. He just explains what happens. Active yeast are suspended, they will ride along with the beer and continue to eat fusels. Do you really think the yeast has any idea what container the beer is in? ;-)

Seriously, if the yeast could be left behind simply by racking, bottle conditioning would be impossible. You can dry hop in the primary or in a secondary. If you want to harvest your yeast, dry hop in the secondary.
 
Palmer's article is interesting. If I have a style where I want to emphasize fruitiness - something Belgian maybe - then I should let the krausen fall back into the wort so the yeast can convert the fusels to esters.

With my American ales, though, my typical goal is to ferment cold and clean to emphasize the ingredients. Usually the hops. My house yeast is Pacman, and my chest freezer is set to 58F. So with these beers I should blow off the krausen to minimize potential esters.
 
I was more directly considering the mess the hop bag would have to go through to get to the beer in the carboy, since there is a lot of krausen gunk in the neck of the carboy. That is unless hop pellets would compact enough on top of the yeast cake to not be a huge mess when trying to rack to my bottling bucket.

I'm not concerned with leaving yeast behind, since they're practically my best friends ;) I'm not yet at the point where I'm harvesting yeast, although I do intend to start doing that at some point.

And I think what I meant was more that Palmer makes a good case for letting beer sit in primary a little longer, which to me implied letting the krausen fall back into the beer (if the fermentation vessel has the headspace to accommodate the krausen).
 
Palmer makes a very good case for leaving the krausen intact, as well as longer primary fermentation.... Now the question becomes:
Do I dry hop in primary after 1 week of fermentation to allow "secondary" fermentation, then go straight to bottles to carbonate? Or do I let the beer sit in primary for additional 3 to 7 days then rack to secondary to dry hop for a week? Hmm.....

Palmer make no claims like that...Here he talks about astringency: http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

The brown scum that forms during fermentation and clings to the side of the fermentor is intensely bitter and if it is stirred back into the beer it will cause very astringent tastes. The scum should be removed from the beer, either by letting it cling undisturbed to the sides of an oversize fermentor, or by skimming it off the krausen, or blowing off the krausen itself from a 5 gallon carboy. I have never had any problems by simply letting it cling to the sides of the fermentor.

He claims it should be kept out of the beer.
 
If the brown scum generally ends up clinging to the sides of the fermentation vessel, and that's where it should stay rather than being reintroduced to the beer, wouldn't the krausen be otherwise intact?

I was referring to the rest of the krausen, the potentially useful part. :)
 
Either method works, the idea is that the brown scum should be kept out of the beer.
 
Davis Grad + BS Chemistry here. I'm only 4.5 years late to the party on this one, but the krausen removal thing is something I've thought a lot about over the years, so here's what I have to add to the discussion.

Per John Palmer;

"A head of foamy krausen will form on top of the beer. The foam consists of yeast and wort proteins and is a light creamy color, with islands of green-brown gunk that collect and tend to adhere to the sides of the fermentor. The gunk is composed of extraneous wort protein, hop resins, and dead yeast. These compounds are very bitter and if stirred back into the wort, would result in harsh aftertastes. Fortunately these compounds are relatively insoluble and are typically removed by adhering to the sides of the fermentor as the krausen subsides. Harsh aftertastes are rarely, if ever, a problem."

So Palmer is saying (or at least WAS saying as of that publishing date) that krausen contains nothing good, but that it shouldn't be a concern since it's badness won't readily re-dissolve back into the beer. This strikes me as sound advice for any homebrewer, mainly saying that krausen is just part of the process of brewing, and the brewing process works, so don't worry about it. If something really isn't of concern, then it's reasonable to tell the regular Joe homebrewer to just ignore it because mucking about in your beer for a goal with no benefit can only hurt you.

But, the 99% correct answer to a question is not the "definitive" answer to the question. For that last 1% of the answer, I would direct your attention to one of the true greats of the American craft brewing scene, Matt Brynildson. Matt started out at Goose Island as a shiftie back in the mid 1990s, and quickly shot through the ranks to become their head brewer. He was then subsequently picked off by Firestone Walker out in California, where I believe he is still brewmaster. Matt was already there in the mid 2000's when I was entering the brewing field in the SF Bay area. In terms of what beers I was drinking in what eras, the summer of 2006 is one I'll never forget because that's the summer I spent drinking all the Firestone Walker Pale Ale I could get my hot little hands on. They still produce pales, and I don't live in CA anymore, but from the occasional comments I've seen about this beer over the years since, the later versions were all good but nothing ever matched the mid-2000 era product they simply called their "Pale Ale". And that beer remains to this day my personal "desert island beer", hands-down.

Reading up about FWB back then, I discovered that they used a very unusual brewing system called a Burton Union. I happened to know about this system because Dr Lewis described it to our class back at Davis. The basic idea is that the ferm vessels (traditionally wooden barrels) are laid on their sides next to each other in two long rows. Running between the rows at the height of the top of the vessels is a central tube. Each vessel has a tube running straight form the top of the barrel directly horizontally to the central tube. The overall arrangement is called a "street". One of the important design points of the street is that the individual "driveways" connecting to the middle "street" tube are immediately above the liquid level in the barrels. Basically, the barrel is on its side, it is filled with wort up to the very tippy-top, which means that there is virtually no headspace whatsoever. The driveway tube attaches to a hole in the side of the barrel, which since the barrel's on its side puts it at the highest point over the liquid. The fitting that attached the tube to the hole in the barrel is a 0-degree 90 elbow so the tube is more or less right at the liquid level. What this does therefore is force all the krausen into the driveway tube and out towards the street tube. (I have no idea how far the Krausen foam actually makes it down the tubes, but that's something I've always wondered about! FWB visit = bucket list item.)

In this way, nearly every bit of krausen is automatically removed from the beer in the barrel, no skimming needed. Now, Brynildson is a demi-god among brewers, and FWB was built to be a hang-the-expense all-the-way artisanal setup. So between those two facts, there's every other reason that that magical mid-2000s Pale would have been an awesome beer. But it wasn't just an awesome beer---it was a magnificent beer. The most magnificently clean beer I've ever tasted. I've had a few other better-beer appreciators from CA agree with me on this, even 4, 6, 8 years after it (apparently) ceased to exist. One of them was a complete stranger on a barstool next to me in the midwest less than 2 years ago! So that's saying something about that beer.

Conclusion: Knowing what I know about the Burton Union brewhouse design, and knowing that the FWB guys set out to build one---the only one in N America at the time, I believe---it's hard for me not to think that it was this unusual process that made their mid-2000s Pale so special. And the defining feature of the Burton Union, near as I can tell, is that it removes all the krausen from the beer in a passive, closed, sanitary way. So in my opinion, while krausen clearly doesn't ruin beer or anything, its complete removal may be the difference between a very nice beer and an ultra-clean tasting beer. It seems likely to me that while the vast bulk of the sticky krausen is left behind on the fermenter walls, enough trace amounts of it pass through to the final product to stand between your tongue and the achievement of truly "clean" beer.

One last note, and this is pure speculation on my part. When Dr Lewis was describing the BU system for us, he mentioned that one of the reasons it is so rarely seen anywhere is that for whatever reason it apparently doesn't scale up. Up from what original/traditional size, I couldn't say for certain. If I had to venture a guess, I'd imagine a 19th-century brewhouse in the UK with a big long building housing a street of maybe 10 barrels on each side, those barrels being maybe the height of a man? In principle, you could have an arbitrarily long chain of barrels and scale it up in merely the horizontal direction I suppose. But that also means having to build an arbitrarily long climate-controlled building around the thing, so my sense is that being able to scale up only in one dimension means for all practical purposes, "not scalable". You need to be able to scale up in 3D to realize the gains, such as the larger and larger cylindro-conical fermenters that 20th century advances in metal fabrication made possible.

It is further possible (in my mind, probable) that FWB may well have realized they had built a veritable printing press for money with their beers by the mid-2000s, and decided to scale up anyway to cash in. This would account for why the subsequent Pales never quite measured up the famous earlier version. Perhaps Brynildson still produces small batches of the really good stuff on the Burton Union system for local distro only? You'd have to visit the brewery or talk to Matt I suppose. When breweries scale up and something is lost, but only a tiny handful of their devotees notice, it can become difficult to distinguish the straight dope from the marketing copy as the mists of time fold in around you.

Please remember that this is all purely speculative, I have zero evidence for any of these musings of mine. If anybody has some inside baseball knowledge that expands, negates, or contradicts my hypotheses, I'd be happy to stand corrected on any of it.

In Summation: I don't know if this will qualify as definitive by Jakemo's standards, but I think it substantially adds to the thread. Hopefully others will subsequently stumble across it like I did, and throw in whatever comments, corrections, or insights they can add to mine. A truly exhaustive treatment of the implications of krausen removal to the taste of the final product would necessarily include a fine-grained analysis of the krausen's physical constituents, their properties, before-and-after comparisons of measured levels of the various compounds in the wort and the finished beer, etc. I currently have access to a local university's library portal, and a few of my less-than-expert searches of the academic literature turned up nothing interesting when I searched for krausen analysis. Like many other aspects of brewing that we might be interested in reading up on, it's very likely that most of the good research that's been done on this is still proprietary knowledge that the big companies paid top-dollar to do in-house, so you can't totally blame them for not just going full Jonas Salk with it.

Brynildson's bio page from FWB company website:
http://www.firestonebeer.com/brewery/matt-brynildson.php
 
So I recently learned from a Mico brewer that if you put your carboy in the freezer for 2 hrs before you bottle the yeast cake will basically clump up and fall to the bottom. I'm making my second batch of beer right now White House Honey Ale and noticed it had low krausen (I'm guessing) because there isn't a large yeast head on it this time. I made a heffenwizen the first time which had large amount of yeast head. I had a super cloudy beer when I bottled it because I didn't know how to avoid this. But as long as you drank it out of the bottle and left the bottom drink in it, it was super good.
 

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