losing the lacto wars

[Owly055]

I seem to have a persistent lacto problem that I have been unable to get a handle on. The first time, I had a lacto with as beautiful white pellicle, a classic example, and I killed that by flushing the fermenter with boiling water, and it's never returned. Since that time, I had a couple of clean brews, then 3 infected brews in a row, one of which was the result of unknowingly pitching top crop from the first before I realized it was infected. This lacto does not leave any pellicle, but has that distinctive lacto tang, and is very slow acting. I dismantled the fermenter that was involved, and completely submerged it and all it's parts in starsan for 3 days before doing the most recent brew....... which also soured. I just dismantled it again, and mixed up starsan at 150% strength, and plan to leave the works in the starsan for a week or so.
Now I think I detect a hint of lacto in my big fermenter, which was uninvolved up to this time. Not sure if it's my imagination, I'm getting paranoid about this!

This is getting frustrating!! I have no problem trashing the small fermenter, which is a 3 gallon acrylic ice tea dispenser from Walmart, but my Big Mouth Bubbler is new, and expensive. I'm about ready to simply give up brewing, at least for a few months, but I have a large inventory of grain and hops......... I really do not want to be making sour beers because that's all I can make at the moment. It is a very nice sour if you pasteurize it at the right stage, but it's NOT what I want.


H.W.

 

[MrHopScotch]

When you cleaned your fermenters after batches you knew were contaminated, did you replace everything else plastic that had touched the beer like racking canes etc.?

 

[Psylocide]

Think it has anything to do with not boiling the wort?

 

[Zekk]

When I had an infection problem I replaced all plastic and bleached everything else, including all the bottles that had held the beer. I did toss some of the bottles too. Just rinse the bleach a few times and you shouldn't taste it.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

Is your Big Mouth Bubbler glass or plastic? If it's plastic you may never win that battle. if it's glass you should be able to sanitize it. Try a different sanitizer, Iodophor or a dilute bleach solutions work well. I wouldn't use bleach on plastic personally but I know people who do and then rinse the hell out of it afterwards.

 

[ChefRex]

Maybe it's because you're a sour old man?

 

[Owly055]

Everything I use is plastic.......... ;-( Unfortunately it limits what I can do in terms of heat.
I'm basically out of the brewing business until I replace both fermenters it would seem, unless I can beat it with Starsan.

H.W.

 

[iijakii]

Everything I use is plastic.......... ;-( Unfortunately it limits what I can do in terms of heat.
I'm basically out of the brewing business until I replace both fermenters it would seem, unless I can beat it with Starsan.

H.W.

Disassemble everything you can. Clean everything well with pbw/oxi and then do a star san soak (reg strength). All of your tubing, airlocks etc as well. First take a mini break so you're not frustrated. It'll be fine.

 

[ChefRex]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7166859&postcount=37




Sound familiar?

 

[BGBC]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7166859&postcount=37




Sound familiar?

Entirely unrelated, I am sure.

 

[Owly055]

Think it has anything to do with not boiling the wort?

I would say not, as most of my brews are conventional, and I have not used the same fermenters, airlocks, or anything between them. I also do not use an autosiphon, as my fermenters all have spigots.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Disassemble everything you can. Clean everything well with pbw/oxi and then do a star san soak (reg strength). All of your tubing, airlocks etc as well. First take a mini break so you're not frustrated. It'll be fine.

I think I'll take your approach here.......... I've done well in reality..... 121 brews in slightly over 2 years, and only the last few giving any problem. I may "retire" for a month or two.....

Thinking of making an "oven" out of blue foam, with a computer fan for circulation, and maintaining everything in it at about 165 for several days. It's also worth considering the fact that my fermenters are clear, and UV might contribute to the process. Lacto is not a "tough" bacteria as a rule. When you are trying to cultivate it, it's pretty easy to kill.

H.W.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you have a valve on your kettle, take it apart and clean/sanitize. Also the bulkhead and anything else that's on the cold side. Many parts can be boiled in PBW, or soaked in a very hot solution of it. Use scrub brushes, tube brushes, etc. as long as they don't scratch the equipment.

Either buy new tubing or soak and scrub the ones you have on the inside. When it's clean, sanitize. You could test your efforts with some boiled wort. Don't forget your racking canes. I scrubbed the SS one I have with BKF and a long 3/8" tube brush. There was lots of gunk inside.

Look everywhere for possible areas that can harbor bugs. I'm sure your diligence will pay off.

I never dry tubing anymore. they live in a bucket with Starsan. They get a bit slimy after a while, but a draw brush and some PWB cleans them out, followed by a good rinse and back into the Starsan. I strongly believe there is nothing that can live in it.

Maybe start with new yeast. Reclaimed yeast is always susceptible to increased bug populations.

Bleach bombing and exposure to UV (outside, bright sun) are good sanitizers too.
Good luck, I hope you can eradicate the vector. Don't give up, don't let the bugs win!

 

[IslandLizard]

... my fermenters all have spigots.

Chances are your bacteria live in there!

 

[LostBoyScout]

Leaving the equipment soaking in star san isn't going to do you any good, you're better off with a long PBW soak followed by a shorter star san soak.

 

[broadbill]

Think it has anything to do with not boiling the wort?

LOL....well, I guess we all know how those experiments turned out! That is what I get for being open-minded and defending Owly against the masses. Fool me once...

 

[Owly055]

LOL....well, I guess we all know how those experiments turned out! That is what I get for being open-minded and defending Owly against the masses. Fool me once...

Let me point out that there are many people doing no boil....... with good success. I don't consider this even remotely related, just co-incidental.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Chances are your bacteria live in there!

I'm very conscious of that possibility, and take measures to try to prevent it, probably more than most people do.......... such as disassembling and boiling. Spigots have always been a concern to me.


H.W.

 

[ArcLight]

It's not as easy as just use star san and PBW to get rid of an infection.
Hospitals have a hard time getting rid of infections and they use way better stuff than we have.

One of the big problems is bacteria make biofilms that protect them.
You may get rid of most of the bacteria, but if some survive and gradually increase, you may not notice it in your next batch, but your second batch will be fully infected again.

If you plan on using Bleach, add an ounce of vinegar to one gallon of the water/bleach solution to lower the pH. Don't add the vinegar directly to the bleach.

Personally, given how much time I put into brewing, it's worth it to me to discard a few plastic items.

 

[The Moravian]

Lactose lives on nearly everything. If you are using anything other than extracts, any Grains at all and not boiling the wort you are getting the lactose from there. I make saurkraut, pickles etc. Lactose is already on the cabbage and cukes. Just add saltwater and wait.

 

[Yooper]

Lactose lives on nearly everything. If you are using anything other than extracts, any Grains at all and not boiling the wort you are getting the lactose from there. I make saurkraut, pickles etc. Lactose is already on the cabbage and cukes. Just add saltwater and wait.

I'm sure you mean lactobacillus, and not lactose, but I wanted to point that out for anyone who may take you literally.

 

[TheBigLebrewsk1]

You would think that lactic acid bacteria would did off quickly in the absence of carbohydrates and vitamins necessary for their biological functions.

 

[IslandLizard]

Chances are your bacteria live in there!

I'm very conscious of that possibility, and take measures to try to prevent it, probably more than most people do.......... such as disassembling and boiling. Spigots have always been a concern to me.

It's one place to consider, and often overlooked.
The typical bottle bucket spigots have two 3/4" barrels that rotate into one another, that allows you to put the (red) dispenser tap sideways, while the body remains mounted. You need to soak that assembly in very hot water to be able to push the 2 apart. I found a black slimy residue in that space between the 2 barrels. I've also discovered the rubber seals get black over time.

The valve on your kettle, I mentioned before, can harbor sludge. I prefer 3-piece valves, but even the 2 part valves can be separated for cleaning. The bulkhead is another place. They don't get hot enough to kill the bugs. There was an article on that and someone's almost endless battle to find the culprit. And it came down to something that easy, but totally overlooked!

From what I read (and learned), you cannot judge an infection by its pellicle. You need a microscope and some good knowledge of microbiology to be able to tell what microorganism is causing the trouble. Lacto maybe involved, but is not always the main offender.

With your dedication to brewing I'm confident you'll be able to isolate and remedy the problem. Every bit of equipment and detail in your process needs to be scrutinized, and evaluated.

 

[Owly055]

Lactose lives on nearly everything. If you are using anything other than extracts, any Grains at all and not boiling the wort you are getting the lactose from there. I make saurkraut, pickles etc. Lactose is already on the cabbage and cukes. Just add saltwater and wait.

In the no boil process which I've been using for about 1/3 of my brews, I heat the wort to well above the kill temp for lacto and most other microbes. Normal pasteurization temps for milk are 160 for a very brief time period. My wort goes to 165-170, and remains there, slow cooling. Lactobacillis is killed well below that temp. Others who are doing no boil are not having a lacto issue. I suggest you read the thread Raw Ale No Boil

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=540077


H.W.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Hey, Owly, can't really offer much good advice aside from what others have already given here.

I'm sure it's a huge PITA, but I agree, I don't think your no boil attempts have caused this, just a coincidence.

I'm sure if you put as much creativity into fighting the infection as you do your brewing techniques, you'll take care of the problem!

It also seems like you're terribly frustrated at the moment, so I'd take a couple of weeks off, go do something else, and then come back to tackle the problem.

You could always re-purpose your currently infected gear for something like Kombucha brewing. It's an equally fun and rewarding hobby, and then you have an excuse to buy a new fermenter or two for your beer brewing efforts.

 

[Owly055]

It's one place to consider, and often overlooked.
The typical bottle bucket spigots have two 3/4" barrels that rotate into one another, that allows you to put the (red) dispenser tap sideways, while the body remains mounted. You need to soak that assembly in very hot water to able to push the 2 apart. I found a black slimy residue in that space between the 2 barrels. I've also discovered the rubber seals get black over time.

The valve on your kettle, I mentioned before, can harbor sludge. I prefer 3-piece valves, but even the 2 part valves can be separated for cleaning. The bulkhead is another place. They don't get hot enough to kill the bugs. There was an article on that and someone's almost endless battle to find the culprit. And it came down to something that easy, but totally overlooked!

From what I read (and learned), you cannot judge an infection by its pellicle. You need a microscope and some good knowledge of microbiology to be able to tell what microorganism is causing the trouble. Lacto maybe involved, but is not always the main offender.

With your dedication to brewing I'm confident you'll be able to isolate and remedy the problem. Every bit of equipment and detail in your process needs to be scrutinized, and evaluated.

I am judging the infection by it's flavor. Lactobacillis and Acetobacter are the main culprits, and produce distinctly different flavors. Acetobacter nearly always creates a pellicle of some sort, and various lactobacillis species may or may not produce a pellicle. No doubt there are other microbes from different families that will spoil beer in different ways, but souring is done primarily by these two families of culprits, one creating acetic acid, and one lactic acid. Pediococcus is another that will produce lactic acid, but tends to be more "funky". These of course are large family groups, not individual species. I've played with microbes since I was a child doing numerous types of fermentation from beer and wine to making vinegar, to sauerkraut and related fermented products, long brine pickles, kefir, kombucha, rice wine, and various other things. I'm not at all frightened of the kinds of microbes that sour things, but there are others I'm absolutely terrified of, Naegleria fowleri for example (read about it)..... fortunately not a concern for us in brewing, but of real concern if you are into hot potting .... the hot springs near Luna NM on the San Francisco River are known for this critter that will enter your nostrils and eat your brain ;-(. (much faster than alcohol)

H.W.

 

[oceanic_brew]

Ughhh I had 7 infections in a row!

Got rid of any bucket that had a scratch, all my plastic lines, auto siphons, and spoons, and gave the entire brew room a once over with cleaner and some spots with sanitizer.

Only thing I kept was either glass or stainless. Haven't had one since.

 

[RodrigoEick]

Are you milling the grain in the same place you brew? That can be one of the causes of lacto infection

 

[Owly055]

Are you milling the grain in the same place you brew? That can be one of the causes of lacto infection

No..... I mill out in the shed. Good thought though.

H.W.

 

[The Moravian]

Yes, lactobacillus. I tried be cool and shorten it to lacto but autocorrect won that round. Lol

 

[Owly055]

My current strategy is soaking one fermenter in a clorox solution for several days, after which I will expose it to intense UV for several days. The spigot has been boiled, and will be boiled briefly again before installing it. The last stage before using it will be starsan of course. The clorox will be rinsed heavily by simply hosing the fermenter out several times, then sticking the hose in the ferementer and leaving it in for a few hours running over in the yard. It's been soaking in bleach for 3 days now, but weather really is not conducive to finishing the job.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

My second and larger fermenter was just drained today after two weeks. The brew 4Cs IPA was around 60 IBUs, and I monitored it daily for signs of sourness. My taste buds did not detect any sourness, though this fermenter was not aggressively sterilized. I did however pasteurize the brew after racking it out of the fermenter.
This suggests that the high IBU hop additions suppressed the infection as this brew was pitched on a yeast cake that I later discovered to be from an infected brew. Needless to say I will not be using harvested yeast again for awhile, and my procedure will be designed to prevent this kind of spread.

This fermenter will get the clorox and UV treatment also............


H.W.

 

[broadbill]

Are you fermenters made of plastic? UV will destroy them, especially if it is exposed for a long time and/or exposed to high intensity sources.

 

[Owly055]

Are you fermenters made of plastic? UV will destroy them, especially if it is exposed for a long time and/or exposed to high intensity sources.

They are plastic, and I am aware of the sensitivity of plastics to UV, but I'm not overly concerned.


H.W.

 

[gometz]

I would suggest replacing the plastic fermenters, no need to risk more ruined batches.

One thing stuck out to me, doesn't Star San work by lowering the pH? To me that would indicate that it wouldn't harm lactobacillus since lacto should be able to survive pretty low pH environments. Would using Iodophor possibly work?

 

[broadbill]

I would suggest replacing the plastic fermenters, no need to risk more ruined batches.

One thing stuck out to me, doesn't Star San work by lowering the pH? To me that would indicate that it wouldn't harm lactobacillus since lacto should be able to survive pretty low pH environments. Would using Iodophor possibly work?

StarSan also has a surfactant with antimicrobial properties. If Star San wasn't effective against lacto it wouldn't be a commercially viable product. Lacto is pretty much public enemy #1 in brewing.

 

[Owly055]

I would suggest replacing the plastic fermenters, no need to risk more ruined batches.

One thing stuck out to me, doesn't Star San work by lowering the pH? To me that would indicate that it wouldn't harm lactobacillus since lacto should be able to survive pretty low pH environments. Would using Iodophor possibly work?

I refuse to use glass, as the only option I'm aware of is the carboy, which I have a real dislike for, and is only available in large size. That leaves stainless steel. I have fermented in stainless steel stock pots before, but the lid is an issue, though not an insurmountable one. I'd love to have one of those cute 7 gallon Brewtech conicals, but I like to make smaller brew sizes. My 5 gallon Big Mouth Bubbler is really larger than I want, yielding 4 gallons ultimately....... and of course it's plastic. I like clear fermenters, which is why I've gone the way I have. Walmart ice tea dispensers have served me very well for most of my 120+ brews. I do expect to win in the end. At the moment, I have a very powerful UV light , one designed for industrial use, the kind you wear goggles with suspended inside my small fermenter, which was recently removed from the clorox bath. After about 10 hours of exposure, I'll drop it in Starsan for a day, then brew in it.

Your point about lacto and starsan is an interesting one. I don't think iodophor is ideal for plastics due to staining. It also has a very short working life... just a few hours. The clorox is very cheap, and I don't have a water issue as I am on a good well, so I can rinse literally for hours at insignificant cost.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

StarSan also has a surfactant with antimicrobial properties. If Star San wasn't effective against lacto it wouldn't be a commercially viable product. Lacto is pretty much public enemy #1 in brewing.

My understanding was that the surfactant was regarded as inert and served only to create suds and coat surfaces. That said, your point about Starsan having to be able to kill lacto is a good and valid one.

H.W.

 

[IslandLizard]

My understanding was that the surfactant was regarded as inert and served only to create suds and coat surfaces. That said, your point about Starsan having to be able to kill lacto is a good and valid one.

H.W.

Aside for the beneficial wetting and foaming action, the surfactant's sanitizing job is accomplished by lowering surface tension, which ruptures the cell walls of the microorganisms and kills them. The mechanism may be, by making the cell walls permeable they can soak up water through osmosis, then they explode. The acid also prevents growth of most molds and bacteria.

 

[Owly055]

Aside for the beneficial wetting and foaming action, the surfactant's sanitizing job is accomplished by lowering surface tension, which ruptures the cell walls of the microorganisms and kills them. The mechanism may be, by making the cell walls permeable they can soak up water through osmosis, then they explode. The acid also prevents growth of most molds and bacteria.

Interesting........ This is exactly the opposite of the mechanism whereby honey or salt are anti bacterial. This is an osmosis effect also, with the strong solution outside the cell walls causes osmosis, dehydrating the cells.


H.W.