Looking to get into spunding this winter....

[seatazzz]

I brew a LOT of lager. There's almost always one on tap in the kegerator, with another one close behind it in the ferment fridge. I've been doing some reading about naturally carbonating using a spunding valve, and about to take the leap here in a week or two (at least buying the hardware for it). Garage stays pretty cold in winter, so I could afford to keep a keg out of the kegerator and let it carb that way.

For those of you who use this method, I'd like to know how you go about it; ferment in the keg, then spund? Ferment the old-fashioned way in a carboy or bucket, and use the spunding valve with sugar solution, or when the beer still has a ways to go to finish out? How long does it take? Do you notice a significant difference in beer carbonated this way vs. force carbing? Ales or lagers, doesn't matter.

co2 isn't an issue for me, I have a 20lb tank; but it seems using a spunding valve would significantly reduce the amount of o2 that might get in my precious beverages.

 

[friarsmith]

For a 5 gallon batch of lager, I generally check gravity around Day 6-8, and if the beer is at FG, I keg it and add saved speise (1.5 qt wort from the boil saved in a 2 qt mason jar in the fridge). Then I do a 4-5 day diacetyl rest which usually involves putting the keg in a cool-ish area of my house (65-68*) or in the low 60's in a keezer along w/ other fermenting beer. No spunding valve on the keg. After the d-rest, the beer is usually 75-100% carbonated and I begin to ramp it down to the 30's (or sometimes just put it in a 38* keezer). FWIW, I have have been doing this method for 18 months or so and have no plans to change. Great shelf life, great mouthfeel/texture from natural carbonation, and you save a lot of CO2. Allows you to turn fermenters/batches quicker and kegs take up less room too. There really isn't a downside IMO. And, for example, you can drink a few pints of super fresh keller beer (awesome w/ CZ pilsners) around Day 20 then save the rest until the beer really clears up after lagering.

A similar method is to keg the beer when you're 2-4 points (eg 1.012-1.014 on an expected 1.010 FG), seal the keg up, and let the last bit of fermentation charge the keg (with or w/o a spunding valve backup). Beer creates about one volume CO2 for each 2 points of fermentation. You've got to 'be on top' of the fermentation to do this at the right time.

I can't speak to spunding in the fermenter as I've never tried that method. It must work as lots of homebrewers and pro's do it. I prefer my method as you can honestly keg the beer anywhere from the moment you reach FG to 3-5 days later if life gets in the way. Speise and the elevated temp clean up the beer, and there isn't too much gunk at the bottom of the keg

Cheers. I am a huge fan of Carbon Leaf too, btw. Seen them many times

 

[seatazzz]

I can't speak to spunding in the fermenter as I've never tried that method. It must work as lots of homebrewers and pro's do it. I prefer my method as you can honestly keg the beer anywhere from the moment you reach FG to 3-5 days later if life gets in the way. Speise and the elevated temp clean up the beer, and there isn't too much gunk at the bottom of the keg

Cheers. I am a huge fan of Carbon Leaf too, btw. Seen them many times

So basically what you're saying is, I don't really *need* a spunding valve? Or sugar? I like the idea of using speise to add sugars for the yeast to turn into co2; basically feeding them more of what they've been chewing on anyway. Goes without saying, I'm sure, that sanitation is key in saving the speise, but I haven't had an issue with infections in yonks.

Here's a follow-up question; for home consumption, I don't give a poopy (yes I typed poopy, I know the rules) if my beer is clear. But will this method work if I were to, say, add some gelatin? Will be doing another lager for next year's Cascade Cup and using this method of carbonation really intrigues me, but clear lager is a must for a competition.

Discovered Carbon Leaf many years ago, and love their work; lots of Irish in my family (great grandma was Cork) and their music really speaks to me. Haven't had a chance to see them live, jealous! Gaelic Storm as well.

 

[friarsmith]

You don't really need a spunding valve with the speise-method. If you forget to save wort from the brew day, you can always mix up/boil 4-5 oz DME in 8oz water right before you keg. I've forgotten to save wort a few times when I've, err, been rosy cheeked after the boil and in a hurry to wrap up. Just sanitize a mason jar as you would any other bit of equipment and place in the coldest part of your fridge.

Regarding clarity, most lagers (assuming good hot break, cold break, whirlfloc additions) will run brilliantly clear by Day 35-40 with the speise-method without gelatin, especially if they've had 10 days or so in the low 30's. This is somewhat yeast-dependent. For comps, my target bottling day is usually Day 45-60 for normal gravity lagers. Day 90 or so for Doppelbock. Unless the lager is super hoppy, I don't really notice a drop off in lower gravity beers until at least Day 100. I've had a large handfull of 80-100 day old speised-beers medal in big comps.

I used to use 34/70 a lot in my pre-speise days, but it never seemed to clear out w/o gelatin when carbonating w/ speise. I've switched to Imperial Organic Harvest (Augustiner) for malty Euro beers, WLP850 for Dortmunders and German Pils, and WLP 802 for most Czech lagers. WLP840 is great for American lagers and clears out pretty quick. Come to think of it, most of the CZ yeasts clear out pretty well.

If you're in Seattle, Carbon Leaf comes through your neck of the woods in October.

 

[Broothru]

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[seatazzz]

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Obligatory goat.

 

[friarsmith]

FWIW, the nice German Weyermann sales rep at HomebrewCon said the correct pronunciation is "Spy-shuh" with a soft "u" at the end like "uhh." It loosely translates to "food" which makes sense. And Barke is pronounced Bar-Kay. Like 'parquet' flooring. The more you know... rainbow