Looking for sweet carbonated cider

[william_shakes_beer]

Did 2 batches of cider last apple season using the local orchard's pasturized product and the caramel apple cider recipie found elsewhere on this forum. Fermented with english cider yeast 4 weeks, backsweetened with syrup as directed.

The first batch I was extremely nervous about adding that much fermentable sugar in the bottle, so I sterilized in the dishwasher after 24 hours. Product was quite dry, and no carb. The next batch I let go a week before sterilizing, still no carb. In fact, due to an unrelated error, most of the sugar in the second batch was in 3 of the bottles (probably the last 3 out of the bottling bucket) and those were only very slightly carbonated. I generally evaluate carb levels after chilling 24-48 hours, and feel uneasy letting it ride for 4 weeks like beer. How long does it usually take to carb cider, assuming the primary ferment finished at about 0.998?

Also, I had assumed the cider yeast was produced because it preserved more fruit flavor. Is there a better yeast selection? My local orchard is pressing now and I'd like to give it another go.

Final question: is it possible to preserve more fruit flavor by adding brown sugar to the primary ferment, boosting the alcohol content and slowing the yeast down on the back end? I'm thinking 4 cups boiled and cooled.

 

[j1n]

Well, i don't know too much about cider but ill tell you my method fro sweet carbed cider. I ferment it til it reaches about 1.012-1.014 FG and then i filter out all the yeast and back sweeten. I then force carb in a keg and bottle with the beer gun.

I really don't like other methods since some of it is a guessing game and possible bottle bombs.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

interesting. What media do you use to filter the yeast?

 

[ericbw]

You can add enough sugar that the yeast drops out and dies, but then you can't carbonate in the bottle.

It takes more than 24 hours to carbonate. Sometimes a week, 2weeks, a little more.

You can use one plastic bottle when you bottle. Then monitor they bottle. When it's so hard you can't squeeze it, then you've got carbonation and it's time to pasteurize.

But the best way to get sweet carbed cider is with a keg.

We ferment it dry, then backsweeten with more cider. This sweetens and reduces alcohol. Then heat pasteurize and/or use chemicals to stabilize. Then force carb.

 

[j1n]

interesting. What media do you use to filter the yeast?

i've used a 1 micron filter but the next time ill prob use a 0.5 micron filter.

the 1 micron gets about 90% of the yeast. the 0.5 will get all of them.

its a 10" sediment filter used for water.

 

[kegnation]

I use potassium sorbate/camden tablets to kill off the yeast then backsweeten it with syrup or more cider. I don't know of any way to backsweeten without causing bottle bombs.

I also dump about 3 cups of brown sugar to ratchet up the alcohol and to dry it out a bit. Both year I've kegged and beer gunned it and everyone at my Christmas party loved it!

 

[Yooper]

Did 2 batches of cider last apple season using the local orchard's pasturized product and the caramel apple cider recipie found elsewhere on this forum. Fermented with english cider yeast 4 weeks, backsweetened with syrup as directed.

The first batch I was extremely nervous about adding that much fermentable sugar in the bottle, so I sterilized in the dishwasher after 24 hours. Product was quite dry, and no carb. The next batch I let go a week before sterilizing, still no carb. In fact, due to an unrelated error, most of the sugar in the second batch was in 3 of the bottles (probably the last 3 out of the bottling bucket) and those were only very slightly carbonated. I generally evaluate carb levels after chilling 24-48 hours, and feel uneasy letting it ride for 4 weeks like beer. How long does it usually take to carb cider, assuming the primary ferment finished at about 0.998?

Also, I had assumed the cider yeast was produced because it preserved more fruit flavor. Is there a better yeast selection? My local orchard is pressing now and I'd like to give it another go.

Final question: is it possible to preserve more fruit flavor by adding brown sugar to the primary ferment, boosting the alcohol content and slowing the yeast down on the back end? I'm thinking 4 cups boiled and cooled.

My favorite, most "apply" cider was done using S04 ale yeast. It still fermented pretty dry (1.004), but it has a great apple flavor and aroma. The thing is, adding more sugar will boost the ABV, but it will make it be more "winelike" than "ciderlike" and so you may not want to do that.

I personally hate the taste of fermented brown sugar (which is white sugar with a molasses flavor) because once it ferments out the sugar it has a very odd taste. If you want a sweet and carbonated cider, check out Pappers' cider pasteurization sticky thread at the top of this forum. If you do it his way, and don't add brown sugar to the fermentation and then sweeten the cider at the end with it instead, it would have a much better flavor if you want a sweet cider. And then pasteurize it when it's carbed up enough for your liking.

I like dry cider, so I have both still and sparkling dry cider. I don't have a sweet tooth at all, but if I did (and if I bottled), I would sweeten to taste and carb the way Papper's sticky describes.

I keg, so I can do it however but I still don't sweeten the cider. I think that ale yeast would be the best bet if you want a fruity/apple flavor to the cider.

 

[MindenMan]

I am confused about checking the carb level after 24-48 hours chilling. Do mean after x-days, you then chill and check carb levels?

 

[ericbw]

I am confused about checking the carb level after 24-48 hours chilling. Do mean after x-days, you then chill and check carb levels?

You could do it that way. I don't think you'd need to wait 24-48 hrs if you're just checking the carb. But it will taste better if you chill that long.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

ericbw:
What the poster is suggesting is that when you bottle the batch you also bottle one or two "carb testers" in 16 oz PET plastic. You can check the carb levels by squeezing the bottle. When its rock hard, you pasturize. Its an approximate way to determine how much pressure is in the bottles, and by extension how much carb is in the product. The issue is that the carb changes when you chill. More co2 moves into the product. Unfortunately the time it takes to chill the tester could also result in bottle bombs for the main batch, particularly with such a large amount of backsweetening (yes, Yooper, I like sweet cider.) I think I'll give it a go with backsweetening and the PET bottles. Too bad I can't just add a pressure gage to a screw cap and test that way!!! Thanks for all your replies.

 

[Maylar]

I think I'll give it a go with backsweetening and the PET bottles. Too bad I can't just add a pressure gage to a screw cap and test that way!!! Thanks for all your replies.

Ya mean like this?

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Ya mean like this?

How did you seal the gage into the cap?
What pressure gage did you use?
What is the yeild pressure of PET, and a 12 OZ glass bottle?

which version of photoshop are you using? :smack:

 

[Maylar]

How did you seal the gage into the cap?
What pressure gage did you use?
What is the yield pressure of PET, and a 12 OZ glass bottle?

which version of photoshop are you using? :smack:

The gauge has 1/8" NPT threads and is screwed into a stainless adapter that converts NPT to a 10-32 screw thread. All it took is a 3/16" hole through the cap and a washer and 10-32 nut on the bottom. The adapter came with a seal. You can see from the pic that I sanded the top of the cap for the best seal. I got them both from McMaster Carr, about $25 total with shipping.

This 12 oz bottle is monitoring my last batch of cider, which fermented to 1.000 and I added a teaspoon of priming sugar. It's been 11 days and there's been no pressure yet. I've never bottle carbed before, so I dunno what to expect.

Your question about bottle yield pressures is exactly the reason I'm doing this. I hope to be able to publish some data about what the limits are to carbonating and pasteurizing without bottle bombs.


Edit: These are the parts I used -

2684K19 Miniature Stainless Steel Threaded Pipe Fitting, 1/8 Pipe X 10-32 Thread Size, Reducing Adapter

3847K71 Multipurpose Gauge, Plastic Case, 1-1/2" Dial, 1/8 NPT Bottom, 0-60 PSI

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Well, since you have volunteered I will do my part as well:

Per this link:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.crafts.brewing/Yp2t3pMroC8

The safe working pressure for PET seems to be 150 PSI.

Per this link :

http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php/11358-How-much-pressure-can-safely-be-handled

post #8, the safe working pressure for a glass bottle is 50 PSI

so, the glass bottles will fail long before the plastic. Although seeing the plastic bottle blow up like the michelin man is way cool!!!

Which brings up yet another point: If I carb my cider to, say 30 PSI, then put it in the dishwasher on the sanitize setting (full cycle, not just heated dry) how much will the pressure rise during the heated drying cycle?

 

[Maylar]

The charts that I've seen don't go up to those temperatures, and it looks like it's not a linear function. What you're asking is exactly the data that I hope to collect.

I've also seen 50 psi mentioned as a safe level for bottles. That's another data point that I want to collect. It'll be a destructive test

 

[william_shakes_beer]

The charts that I've seen don't go up to those temperatures, and it looks like it's not a linear function. What you're asking is exactly the data that I hope to collect.

I've also seen 50 psi mentioned as a safe level for bottles. That's another data point that I want to collect. It'll be a destructive test

Please keep us posted on your progress. Also, one of the threads I read mentioned that the yeild pressure was partly dependent on the volume of liquid in the container, so be sure to control for that variable as well.

 

[Maylar]

I might order another gauge to get this started - waiting for weeks for results is a drag.

Meanwhile, I have more cider to make...

 

[MindenMan]

Great idea with the gauge. We may have an engineer or two here, that could calculate what the rise in temperature during pasteurizing will do to the bottle pressure. I have only had one bottle bomb during pasteurizing happen, and stopped using the dishwasher to pasteurize so I wouldn't get any more glass shards potentially headed for the pump. 10 gallon pot, outside on a propane burner, with a sufficient amount of weight on lid just in case there is a bad bottle.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

In 3+ years of brewing i have had only one bottle pop, and believe it or not it was root beer!!!

 

[ZionVA]

i've used a 1 micron filter but the next time ill prob use a 0.5 micron filter.

the 1 micron gets about 90% of the yeast. the 0.5 will get all of them.

its a 10" sediment filter used for water.

I would really like to try this method, but this is the first time I've heard it mentioned so I'm wondering why this is not discussed more? Is there something I'm missing? It seems like an easy and efficient way to halt fermentation

 

[number40fan]

You have to have a way to push it through the filter, plus the filter and associated piping.

Campden tablets are cheap and easy to use.

 

[j1n]

I would really like to try this method, but this is the first time I've heard it mentioned so I'm wondering why this is not discussed more? Is there something I'm missing? It seems like an easy and efficient way to halt fermentation

Most people don't have a filter setup. Also if you are using a beer filtering system then you need kegs, co2 and other accessories. I already had a filter system for my beers so its easy for me to filter the cider.

IMO its the best way to make sweet carbed cider. i've heard adding other additives to kill the yeast can impart some unwanted flavor to the cider.

I'm actually going to filter some cider tomorrow. I just set it to cold crash today. My FG is at 1.014 so time to filter and back sweeten with brown sugar and apple juice concentrate. Then i'll force carb it in a keg then bottle it up with my beer gun.

 

[ZionVA]

Most people don't have a filter setup. Also if you are using a beer filtering system then you need kegs, co2 and other accessories. I already had a filter system for my beers so its easy for me to filter the cider.

IMO its the best way to make sweet carbed cider. i've heard adding other additives to kill the yeast can impart some unwanted flavor to the cider.

I'm actually going to filter some cider tomorrow. I just set it to cold crash today. My FG is at 1.014 so time to filter and back sweeten with brown sugar and apple juice concentrate. Then i'll force carb it in a keg then bottle it up with my beer gun.

I see, I was thinking that gravity filtration would be sufficient for a 1 gallon batch. Is an entire filter setup (pump, piping, etc.) necessary for this small of a quantity? I've got the kegs and CO2, so I would just need a beer gun.

Also, I see you're from northern VA. I'm in Richmond until the end of the year but my home base is in Arlington

 

[j1n]

I see, I was thinking that gravity filtration would be sufficient for a 1 gallon batch. Is an entire filter setup (pump, piping, etc.) necessary for this small of a quantity? I've got the kegs and CO2, so I would just need a beer gun.

Also, I see you're from northern VA. I'm in Richmond until the end of the year but my home base is in Arlington

I don't think gravity is enough to push the beer through the filter. I use a 0.5 micron filter to remove all the yeast. a 1 micron will get about 85-90% but not all. I also use about 2-3 psi to push the beer. I do 5 gallons of it at a time.

I think for a smaller batch, if you wanted to filter, you should use a plate type filter. I use the 10" sediment type filter, which IMO wouldnt be good for a small 1 gal batch. I think there is too much space in the filter housing for that small of a volume.

There's a lot of brewers from VA on the forum. I'm over in Lorton. I go down to Richmond every now and then. Going this weekend to visit my sister and cousin that lives down there.

 

[Archer]

Jin, where do you get the .5 micorn filters? Are they costly? Do you pre-filter it before going through the .5 micron to avoid it cloggin up? I assume you use one filter for the 5 gal. batch and then discard, correct? Thanks.