Looking for insight on my area's water profile

[TheFlyingSparge]

I'm new to water in brewing, but interested in understanding more about my area's water profile. For example, is it better/worse for a specific style(s) as is, etc. I've got a few of the #'s commonly mentioned. Unfortunately still hunting down HCO3 from water supplier. Any feedback would be appreciated.

ph: 9.6
Ca: 17.1
Mg: 0.7
Na: 12.7
SO4: 24.0
Cl: 20.0
HCO3: ?

 

[menschmaschine]

Your water has its good qualities, but your pH is WAY high and your calcium is a little low. Your alkalinity (as HCO3) is probably high. Your best bet is to use an acid or pH buffer to bring the mash pH down (or do an acid rest). You should bring your sparge water pH down as well.

As for styles, if you can bring your pH down independent of adding minerals (CaSO4 or CaCl2), your profile is good for light beers including lagers. But you should still add some calcium for the mash, probably best to use CaSO4 (gypsum) so you don't bring your chloride levels too high.

So, bottom line is, depending on beer style, I would use a combination of pH buffer or acid to bring the pH down and add gypsum to bring the calcium up, but keep an eye on your SO4 levels. You can add more gypsum for dark ales and less for light lagers, but you want at least 50ppm of Ca for anything.

 

[Piotr]

but you want at least 50ppm of Ca for anything.

Yes, I've heard about this Ca 50 ppm minimum from many sources - it is reqiured for proper yeast behaviour.

But when I look at Pilsen water profile it has all mineral contents in single digits - Ca is about 7 ppm. How they do make their Pilsener Urquell - do they make water adjustment, or the urquell yeast is somehow immune to lack of Ca?

I made one bath on such soft warter (yeast - Wyeast 2000 Budvar Lager), and I had serius problems with clarity - yeast didn't want to flocculate at all, I had to use finings.

 

[conpewter]

Your water has its good qualities, but your pH is WAY high and your calcium is a little low. Your alkalinity (as HCO3) is probably high. Your best bet is to use an acid or pH buffer to bring the mash pH down (or do an acid rest). You should bring your sparge water pH down as well.

As for styles, if you can bring your pH down independent of adding minerals (CaSO4 or CaCl2), your profile is good for light beers including lagers. But you should still add some calcium for the mash, probably best to use CaSO4 (gypsum) so you don't bring your chloride levels too high.

So, bottom line is, depending on beer style, I would use a combination of pH buffer or acid to bring the pH down and add gypsum to bring the calcium up, but keep an eye on your SO4 levels. You can add more gypsum for dark ales and less for light lagers, but you want at least 50ppm of Ca for anything.

I agree with above. The gypsum is going to be what helps you the most to get your calcium up and even out your residual alkalinity. You'll need to watch your sulfate/chloride ratio to make sure you get either a malty or hoppy beer. Once you get your bicarbonate numbers I highly reccommend palmer's water calculations spreadsheet. It really lays everything out well. Generally you'll be fine for darker beers with a small addition of gypsum (Palmer's calculator will help) since dark beers will help buffer that high alkalinity down. For the lighter beers you will need to adjust PH with more than just gypsum, probably using an acid like mentioned above. For a hoppy IPA you may get by with enough gypsum to balance your calcium and throw your sulfate's off the chart. This is what burton on Trent's water profile looks like.

I made one bath on such soft warter (yeast - Wyeast 2000 Budvar Lager), and I had serius problems with clarity - yeast didn't want to flocculate at all, I had to use finings.

This is most likely due to the calcium issue. I'm not sure of the mechanics behind it but I've had a similar issue when I've used water that was depleted of calcium.

Palmer's spreadsheet is on the bottom of this page
How to Brew - By John Palmer - Residual Alkalinity and Mash pH

Read the whole section about water chemistry as well.

 

[menschmaschine]

Yes, I've heard about this Ca 50 ppm minimum from many sources - it is reqiured for proper yeast behaviour.

But when I look at Pilsen water profile it has all mineral contents in single digits - Ca is about 7 ppm. How they do make their Pilsener Urquell - do they make water adjustment, or the urquell yeast is somehow immune to lack of Ca?

I made one bath on such soft warter (yeast - Wyeast 2000 Budvar Lager), and I had serius problems with clarity - yeast didn't want to flocculate at all, I had to use finings.

I believe that water profiles listed for brewing cities are historical and not to be taken literally. Most breweries around the world treat their water in some way. Some are treated more than one would expect, like Dortmund, where evidence has suggested that their brewing liquor is as soft or softer than that used in Pilsen, which is greatly contrary to the Dortmund's water profile.

At any rate, in regards to Ca, my own water is extremely low in Ca (like 2ppm) and before I learned about minerals, I brewed plenty of batches, especially light (-colored) lagers without adding minerals and with no apparent detriment to the beer. (Although I always add it now.) One thing that's not well understood, or at least I've never heard it discussed formally, is how much contribution the barley itself gives to the mash/wort in terms of minerals. Ca is one of the most abundant minerals in barley.

So, I can't really answer your question about Pilsen's water and their breweries' brewing liquor, but it's possible they add some Ca. It's equally worth stating that it's possible to brew good beer without it, but results may vary.

 

[humann_brewing]

I have a dumb question, but where can I get some gypsum that I would want to use?

 

[menschmaschine]

I have a dumb question, but where can I get some gypsum that I would want to use?

It's all over your house in your drywall. Seriously, don't use that... it probably has some sort of plasticizers in it or something. I just get it at any homebrew supply.

 

[humann_brewing]

It's all over your house in your drywall. Seriously, don't use that... it probably has some sort of plasticizers in it or something. I just get it at any homebrew supply.

So I called the LHBS and the guy said we had really hard water and I shouldn't have any reason to add gypsum unless I was making a stout. Here is the only semi-relative data given by my city report.

Aluminum (ug/L) 2.18
Chloride (Cl) (mg/L) 8.65
Iron (Fe) (ug/L) 13.73
Manganese (Mn) (ug/L) 0.10
Sodium (Na) (mg/L) 19.56
Sulfate (SO4) (mg/L) 10.07
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) (mg/L) 220.56
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) (mg/L) 127.12
Turbidity (Lab) (units) 0.29
Zinc (Zn) (mg/L) 2.55

I wanted to raise the Sulfate level to excenuate the bitterness of say an APA or IPA. I thought with about any beer you want it above 50 at least right?

 

[menschmaschine]

I'm confused between the first water report you posted and the last one. If your last one is the "official" report, it would be helpful to know Ca and pH... might as well throw Magnesium in there too.

In any case, Ca and sulfate levels (gypsum) is a separate issue from hardness. Unless your Ca levels are through the roof for some reason, you could successfully add some gypsum to that water to achieve your goal with APA/IPA. In fact, it will likely help you achieve a slightly better mash pH.

 

[desertbronze]

So I called the LHBS and the guy said we had really hard water and I shouldn't have any reason to add gypsum unless I was making a stout. Here is the only semi-relative data given by my city report.

Aluminum (ug/L) 2.18
Chloride (Cl) (mg/L) 8.65
Iron (Fe) (ug/L) 13.73
Manganese (Mn) (ug/L) 0.10
Sodium (Na) (mg/L) 19.56
Sulfate (SO4) (mg/L) 10.07
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) (mg/L) 220.56
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) (mg/L) 127.12
Turbidity (Lab) (units) 0.29
Zinc (Zn) (mg/L) 2.55

I wanted to raise the Sulfate level to excenuate the bitterness of say an APA or IPA. I thought with about any beer you want it above 50 at least right?

from How to Brew

Sulfate (SO4-2)
Molecular Weight = 96.0
Equivalent Weight = 48.0
Brewing Range = 50-150 ppm for normally bitter beers, 150-350 ppm for very bitter beers
The sulfate ion also combines with Ca and Mg to contribute to permanent hardness. It accentuates hop bitterness, making the bitterness seem drier, more crisp. At concentrations over 400 ppm however, the resulting bitterness can become astringent and unpleasant, and at concentrations over 750 ppm, it can cause diarrhea. Sulfate is only weakly alkaline and does not contribute to the overall alkalinity of water.

I have brewed APA's and IPA's with sulfate levels around 200 ppm. Really makes the hop flavor crisp and clean. I don't understand the comment from the LHBS - makes no sense to me.

 

[humann_brewing]

I'm confused between the first water report you posted and the last one. If your last one is the "official" report, it would be helpful to know Ca and pH... might as well throw Magnesium in there too.

In any case, Ca and sulfate levels (gypsum) is a separate issue from hardness. Unless your Ca levels are through the roof for some reason, you could successfully add some gypsum to that water to achieve your goal with APA/IPA. In fact, it will likely help you achieve a slightly better mash pH.

I thought I copied and pasted the info right out of my other post. What data was different?

At any rate the Ca and pH are not listed in the report.

What do you think is the best way to determine what your water needs? Have you seen John Palmers spreadsheet? Going by his color scale or something else?

Also when it comes to hardness, what is too hard? I tested with the pool kit this morning and got a 190 for total alkalinity which is up since I last tested.

Here is the link to the report too:
http://www.fresno.gov/NR/rdonlyres/...6645ACFB7952/10158/2007WaterQualityReport.pdf

Like I said before though, it is from back in 2007 and the data was last sampled in 2005

 

[Kaiser]

ph: 9.6
Ca: 17.1
Mg: 0.7
Na: 12.7
SO4: 24.0
Cl: 20.0
HCO3: ?

This is actually very soft water with low alkalinity. The pH is high, but a high pH doesn’t mean that it is held there very strongly. In fact I think that the original water had a low pH and that the water department added sodium hydroxide (hence the fairly high sodium) to raise the pH. A low pH can leach metals from the pipes and water treatment facilities therefore raise the pH into the 8s and even low 9s to prevent that.

alkalinity is missing but we can make a good guess as to where it would be. Let’s assume that the only significant ions in this water are Ca, Mg, Na, SO4, Cl and the carbonates (HCO3 and CO3). All but the carbonates are given and there is the rule that every cation (the + ones: Ca2+, Mg2+, Na+) has to be balanced by the same number of negative charges (anions: SO4--, Cl-, HCO3-, CO3--).

By adding up all the positive charges and subtracting the charges for the known anions we find the amount of anions that need to be represented by the carbonates. I didn’t do this by hand but used my water spreadsheet (the screenshot is from the mobile version which is not on my web site yet). There I entered your water and adjusted the HCO3 content until the “balance (dH)” was close to 0. I do the balance calculations with German Hardness since this unit of expressing ion concentrations is proportional to the amount and the charge of the ions and not their weight. Different ions have a different atomic weight.

I found that I need about 16 ppm alkalinity as CaCO3 to balance the water. We could go ahead to assume that most of this alkalinity is represented as HCO3 (bicarbonate) and find that your water has about 19 ppm HCO3. Or we can use the pH to determine the ratio between HCO3 and CO3 (carbonate) in the water and get the HCO3 and CO3 content. But for brewing you only need alkalinity and not so much the exact HCO3/CO3 content. We look for the HCO3 content in the water to calculate alkalinity.

I hope this helps. I think you have great brewing water since it is soft and you can use salts to adjust it to your needs.

Kai

 

[PhlyanPan]

I live in the country and have a well for water. So I have no idea what's in it really. We have a pretty elaborate water system that includes addition of HCL, chlorination, carbon filtration, and most recently, I added RO filtration for the drinking water (it tasted like crap before).

The only actual analysis I've ever done was with a TDS meter (it was like 400). Should I get a full analysis done or just use the RO water and assume everything is pretty close to 0? Where would I go to get the analysis and what would I expect it to cost?

 

[humann_brewing]

I live in the country and have a well for water. So I have no idea what's in it really. We have a pretty elaborate water system that includes addition of HCL, chlorination, carbon filtration, and most recently, I added RO filtration for the drinking water (it tasted like crap before).

The only actual analysis I've ever done was with a TDS meter (it was like 400). Should I get a full analysis done or just use the RO water and assume everything is pretty close to 0? Where would I go to get the analysis and what would I expect it to cost?

A lot of people seem to use this place: Ward Laboratories, Agricultural Testing, Consulting, Kearney, Nebraska and it looks like the test we would need is 16.50 but I am wondering if there is any test kit for home use but in looking they only have some of the few basic tests and not things such as Ca and Mg.

 

[humann_brewing]

I'm confused between the first water report you posted and the last one. If your last one is the "official" report, it would be helpful to know Ca and pH... might as well throw Magnesium in there too.

In any case, Ca and sulfate levels (gypsum) is a separate issue from hardness. Unless your Ca levels are through the roof for some reason, you could successfully add some gypsum to that water to achieve your goal with APA/IPA. In fact, it will likely help you achieve a slightly better mash pH.

To make this easier, here is the information that I have from the water report:

Is this enough information to make some calculations or know what to add to brew a given style?

Like I said, during this time of the year, I am mainly brewing mid range beers that are 7-12 SRM and 20 - 45 IBU and some wheat beers in there too. Anyways, I know there is different water for each beer or style but is there anything that sticks out about these number that should be changed?