Looking for a German Style Mentor

[Jeff...]

I was wondering if some experienced German style brewer, would take me under her/her wing and teach me how to brew decent German style beers in accordance with Reinheitsgebot?

I'm currently setup for 10 gallon all-grain batches, with climate controlled fermention chambers and a lagering chamber large enough for 6 5 gallon ball lock corny kegs. I also have a 3 tap climate controlled keezer.

I'm not a beginning brewer but very far from being a expert, so I guess I'm maybe a little past the beginner level. My passion is German style brews. With Bocks being my absolute favorite Bier.

I'm bound and determined to learn how to brew a decent Traditional Bock. I've attempted a traditional Bock several times with various levels of success. All drinkable, but not close to authentic and what I've drank while visiting Germany.

If anyone is willing to teach me virtually, in this thread. I would really appreciate it. I really want to learn and promise I will try my best, to be a good student.

Thanks

 

[Bilsch]

Start by heading over to the lodo section of this forum.

 

[Jeff...]

LODO (LOw Dissolved Oxygen) - very interesting... I've already removed all copper, brass, and aluminum from my system and it's 100% stainless, including a stainless immersion chiller.

But there are so many steps in my brewing process where I introduce oxygen into my wort pre fermentation it's not even funny.

I've never attempted a no sparge mash and I most definitely have never pre-boiled my strike water and rapidly cooled it to strike temperature.

I do add potassium metabisulfite which appears to be a no no. I should be using oxygen scavenger Sodium Metabisulfite to my mash water.

I've already found out by trial and error while boiling the wort, to keep it at a nice simmer. I learned that vigorous boiling causes dulling the of the beer. But I did not know it also causes heat stress, and further accelerating wort oxidation. I've never had a problem with excessive DMS so I feel pretty comfortable here already.

Minimal mashtun headspace. That heavenly smell of mashing malts escaping into the air is something I look forward to when brewing. But using LODO and it stands to reason. That If you smell malt aromas at any time during your hot-side process (while your wort is above 140°F or 60°C) then those aromas and flavors will no longer be available in your finished beer. It really never occurred to me those heavenly aromas once they escape from the mashtun are gone forever.

There is so much more to study, learn and adopt into the brewing procedures. Learning about LODO will keep me busy for a while. Thank you for pointing me to the LODO process.

The positive side, it looks like equipment investment is going to be negligible. since I already have a lot of the gear need to try and learn how to use correctly, for LODO.

Thanks again

 

[Bilsch]

You are a quick study!
Low oxygen brewing seems a bit daunting at first but once you do it a couple times it will become old hat. It’s really the only way to get the German flavors you seek.

As for deoxygenating your water, besides boiling there is also the yeast method which saves time and energy. Potassium metabisulfite will work just as well as sodium.

If you want to take a deeper dive: lowoxygenbrewing.com

 

[Jeff...]

You are a quick study!
Low oxygen brewing seems a bit daunting at first but once you do it a couple times it will become old hat. It’s really the only way to get the German flavors you seek.

As for deoxygenating your water, besides boiling there is also the yeast method which saves time and energy. Potassium metabisulfite will work just as well as sodium.

If you want to take a deeper dive: lowoxygenbrewing.com

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. And the use of yeast and potassium/sodium metabisulfite.

I also make fruit wines and oxygen is very bad thing for wine. I'm somewhat setup for transferring (racking) wine by using CO2, so that concept is a little familiar to me already. It just never occurred to me to adopt some of those same principles to brewing beer.

What I'm quickly discovering It's going to be a matter of changing my "bad" brewing habits, by learning and applying new ones. Which I fully welcome and will try to embrace.

Perhaps the most positive thing here is I'm still green enough to not be set in my ways. So I really have no established bias one way or another. I'm motivated by my love of german style brews and I am determined to learn how to consistently reproduce as close as I can. By starting with an authentic German Traditional Bock and then expand to other German styles from there.

I just started this journey, many thanks to you . But already I have a question...

H2O - one molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms, bonded to a single oxygen atom. Distilled water I believe is as close as one can get to "pure" water. And seems to me, distilled would be the most likely blank slate for modifications to replicate a water profile like Munich for example. Plus I know based on personal experience, distilled water is already LODO. Compared to any other water I've used. Distilled waters' LODO is evident when you try and boil distilled water. I use distilled in my wines, after I have degassed, to back sweeten wine. I do so, because it really does not intorduce much if any excessive oxygen into the wine.

Is my thinking about distilled water on the right track or am I way off base?

 

[Bilsch]

You can start with RO, DI, distilled etc and build your water profile with salts or even use carbon filtered and dechlorinated tap if you know the water report. Either way a good water calculator is essential and their are several free ones to choose from. No matter what water you start with they all will contain dissolved oxygen and will need to deaerated either by boiling or yeast deox just before you brew with it.

 

[Jeff...]

You can start with RO, DI, distilled etc and build your water profile with salts or even use carbon filtered and dechlorinated tap if you know the water report. Either way a good water calculator is essential and their are several free ones to choose from. No matter what water you start with they all will contain dissolved oxygen and will need to deaerated either by boiling or yeast deox just before you brew with it.

You beat me to the punch my distilled water questions we're answered by reading the first page of lowoxygenbrewing.com. short answer I'm thoughts were correct but it's most definitely not a straight and narrow road to follow, there are lots to twists and turns. I have a ton of learning to do. I couldn't be more appreciative of your direction and guidance Bilsch, thank you very much!

 

[Jeff...]

The very first thing to go is my SS homemade sparge arm assembly. I used this to top fill my MLT with strike water. I also used it to Vorlauf and sparge. All which introduces DO into my MLT. The arm will be replaced with a length of silicon hose that will sit near the bottom of the MLT.

With this comes the realization that my 10 gallon MLT will now only be used for 5 or 6 gallon batches as I will no longer be sparging (at least in the beginning). I could still preform 10+ gallon batches though by converting my HLT to MLT and running them in parallel. Something more to think about later on down the road though...

 

[Bilsch]

You are welcome for the help. I was on the same search as you long ago, but back then no one really knew why it was impossible to make beers exactly like the German macros. Now we know and there are several great sources to help you with that.

 

[Jeff...]

You are welcome for the help. I was on the same search as you long ago, but back then no one really knew why it was impossible to make beers exactly like the German macros. Now we know and there are several great sources to help you with that.

I read through your YOS thread starter on forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=355&start=50 there are many blank replies so it's a hard study... It also seemed to abruptly end.

If you don't mind me asking. Do you still use the YOS method for creating LODO strike liquor? BTW the word "Liquor" is starting to make sense to me now. Prior to reading your YOS thread, I couldn't figure out for the life of me, why water would be called liquor. Now I get it... It's one of those light bulb moments.

Because the thread abruptly ended I couldn't quite determine the ideal amounts of dextrose & bread yeast per gallon of water and the ideal temperature and duration.

it appeared to be about 1 gram of both yeast and dextrose per gallon of water at around 80 degrees for 15 to to 18 hours?

 

[Bilsch]

I read through your YOS thread starter on forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=355&start=50 there are many blank replies so it's a hard study... It also seemed to abruptly end.

If you don't mind me asking. Do you still use the YOS method for creating LODO strike liquor? BTW the word "Liquor" is starting to make sense to me now. Prior to reading your YOS thread, I couldn't figure out for the life of me, why water would be called liquor. Now I get it... It's one of those light bulb moments.

Because the thread abruptly ended I couldn't quite determine the ideal amounts of dextrose & bread yeast per gallon of water and the ideal temperature and duration.

it appeared to be about 1 gram of both yeast and dextrose per gallon of water at around 80 degrees for 15 to to 18 hours?

Yes I do in fact use the YOS method to de-oxygenate my strike water as do most of the low oxygen brewers these days. I'm not sure what happened to the traffic over at the GBF and I apologize that the discussion trailed off without resolution. Anyway the amount of yeast and dextrose you need depends on temperature. At around 100f you only need 1 gm yeast and 1gm sugar per gallon of water and the yeast will scavenge all the O2 in less then 30 minutes and hold that way for several days. If you are starting at a lower temperature, say around room temperature, then 2 and 2 is a better amount.

There is a lot more information about this topic as well as very detailed testing and graphs on concentration, time and temperature available at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/ but you just need to register to access the forum. There is also a ton of other information and discussion directly related to low oxygen brewing there.

 

[Jeff...]

I'm not sure what happened to the traffic over at the GBF and I apologize that the discussion trailed off without resolution. Anyway the amount of yeast and dextrose you need depends on temperature. At around 100f you only need 1 gm yeast and 1gm sugar per gallon of water and the yeast will scavenge all the O2 in less then 30 minutes and hold that way for several days. If you are starting at a lower temperature, say around room temperature, then 2 and 2 is a better amount.

There is a lot more information about this topic as well as very detailed testing and graphs on concentration, time and temperature available at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/ but you just need to register to access the forum. There is also a ton of other information and discussion directly related to low oxygen brewing there.

Thanks again Bilsch. I'll most definitely request to be registered and of course more studying...

You may not realize it, but you have showed me more information less than 1 day than I've learned by reading and studying MANY books and I still was grasping at straws.

In no way am I trying to tell you what you should or should not do. But you really should consider writing a book. Maybe name it something like German Brewing Techniques for the Home Brewer or something like that. If you do please put me on the list as one of the first who will purchase a copy.

 

[Bilsch]

Thanks again Bilsch. I'll most definitely request to be registered and of course more studying...

You may not realize it, but you have showed me more information less than 1 day than I've learned by reading and studying MANY books and I still was grasping at straws. In no way am I trying to tell you what you should or should not do. But your really should consider writing a book. Maybe name it something like German Brewing Techniques for the Home Brewer or something like that. If you do please put me on the list as one of the first who will purchase a copy.

I'm quite happy to help anyone who wants to learn more about making German beers. I've been brewing for 33 years now but only in the last 5 have upped my game enough to come close to what the German macros are turning out. The credit for this advance in skill should go to the founding members of the GBF who accepted me into their small, at the time, group and shared their expansive knowledge. As you may have already gathered these low oxygen techniques were, and are still, somewhat contentious therefore home brewers sort of have divided themselves into two factions, those who Lodo and those who don't, which makes it a little difficult to find the most up to date information on both methods in the same location. No matter though as those that seek shall find what they are looking for. As for me writing a book on this topic, there is no need because we already have such a thing called: Technology Brewing and Malting by Wolfgang Kunze. This tome is the authority on all things Deutsch brauen and required reading at all German brewing universities. You can pick up a copy at: www.vlb-berlin.org/en/publications/specialist-publications/kunze
and is, IMO, the only brewing book you will ever need.

 

[Nate R]

Gents... not trying to hijack here, but i am very curious-
Do the German Macros incorporate LODO in their brewing? Was there a reason this has been a "secret" as you mentioned above? In other words, if the Germans have been doing for a long time, how did it not make it into other cultures, that derive from German?
Thanks

 

[Vale71]

Gents... not trying to hijack here, but i am very curious-
Do the German Macros incorporate LODO in their brewing? Was there a reason this has been a "secret" as you mentioned above? In other words, if the Germans have been doing for a long time, how did it not make it into other cultures, that derive from German?
Thanks

If by LODO you mean the nonsense that a group of people keeps trying to pander here then the answer is a resounding NO. If by that you mean modern oxygen mitigation techniques requiring millions of Euros of investment then yes, the largest ones all have it implemented to some degree, just like they have implemented warm lager fermentations and accelerated maturation for reasons of economical sustainability.
However the German beer landscape is made up of literally a thousand smaller, traditional breweries that simply cannot afford the added cost of hot side oxygen mitigation. On the other hand they usually still implement traditional fermentation and lagering profiles, so one could argue that their beers are more genuine than what the macros are putting out. Some of them even do (*gasp*) traditional decoction mashes that according to the LODO gurus can only produce undrinkable, oxidized swill that is not worthy of touching their holy lips.
Honestly, I find the claim that only through LODO can one get a true German beer to be beyond ridiculous, considering that over 90% of German breweries don't implement it and 0% play around with sulfites and yeast and mash caps and all the other ridiculous LODO paraphernalia.

 

[Jeff...]

Gents... not trying to hijack here, but i am very curious-
Do the German Macros incorporate LODO in their brewing? Was there a reason this has been a "secret" as you mentioned above? In other words, if the Germans have been doing for a long time, how did it not make it into other cultures, that derive from German?
Thanks

Not sure it's a secret really, but more of a technique. That is typically not employed at the homebrewing level. Micro breweries seem to employ the technique defacto based on the equipment they use. at least that's what I'm gathering so far... And it stands to reason that if you oxygenate your mash (like I have been doing all along) it shows up in the finished beer.

This is a very interesting read if you haven't read it already ---> 19th Century Brewing Methods in Germany and Austria | Daft Eejit Brewing

 

[mabrungard]

All modern German brewing texts do focus on technique that reduces air contact and there are plenty of them. Not all German breweries employ them, but a focus on that typical fresh malt flavor is a goal.

You can create that flavor without using ALL techniques, but the longevity of that flavor will be shorter. There are plenty of German breweries whose beer only travels a few miles to the drinkers because it’s only good for a few days.

 

[Big Monk]

If by LODO you mean the nonsense that a group of people keeps trying to pander here then the answer is a resounding NO. If by that you mean modern oxygen mitigation techniques requiring millions of Euros of investment then yes, the largest ones all have it implemented to some degree, just like they have implemented warm lager fermentations and accelerated maturation for reasons of economical sustainability.
However the German beer landscape is made up of literally a thousand smaller, traditional breweries that simply cannot afford the added cost of hot side oxygen mitigation. On the other hand they usually still implement traditional fermentation and lagering profiles, so one could argue that their beers are more genuine than what the macros are putting out. Some of them even do (*gasp*) traditional decoction mashes that according to the LODO gurus can only produce undrinkable, oxidized swill that is not worthy of touching their holy lips.
Honestly, I find the claim that only through LODO can one get a true German beer to be beyond ridiculous, considering that over 90% of German breweries don't implement it and 0% play around with sulfites and yeast and mash caps and all the other ridiculous LODO paraphernalia.

You know you could just let the OP and others who read this thread make their own mind up without the added noise.

Those ridiculous things you talk about are merely solutions to an engineering problem at the homebrew scale and are very helpful to many people.

You seem to get very upset about this stuff. It’s kind of your thing.

 

[passedpawn]

Lately I've been using the Barke malts from Weyermann and they definitely have a different flavor than the standard pilsner and vienna malts. Besides ingredients, I know from my efforts to make a satisfying german pilsner, the better ones were from low OG mashes that had higher-than-normal yeast attenuation. I keep the OG of my pilsners under 1.050. I am a believer in proper mash acidification, but I don't mess too much with water chemistry (I have "softened" water).

I suspect I could make better beer by employing the LoDO techniques. But my beer is good enough for me (pilsner and vienna lager on tap atm that are pretty fine, just have to take my word for it ). If I filtered my beer, then bottled and distributed globally (at room temperature ), of course I'd need to address the DO problem. I admire you guys that do it - I just don't think I'm ever going to take it to that level.

I suspect the intent of this thread is to reproduce German lagers. But there are lots of ales brewed in Germany - here's a picture of the fermentors at a altbier brewery I visited in Dusseldorf (Fuchshen). Not so much LoDO. I don't know for sure, but maybe they only use the open fermentors for local kegs (not bottled beer). I did see their keg filling line in another area, but no bottling there.

 

[Jeff...]

Gents... Please let's not start a rag war. If your happy with your brews and your techniques, that's all that really counts, isn't it?

I'm not happy with either of mine, I know they could be better, that's why I asked for help. I'm still green enough to not be set in my ways. I'm very open to try and understand differnt ways to approach brewing with the goal of producing a better beer then I currently do.

LOw Dissolved Oxygen strike & sparge water makes a lot of sense to me. Once I understand the concept enough. I'm going to use it to brew a batch of one of my house brews and see how it turns out. LODO could be one of the missing pieces that I need to incorporate to produce a better beer.

There's absolutely nothing worng with a guy trying to self improve is there?

 

[Big Monk]

Or you could just mind your own business and stop insulting me by qualifying my posts as "noise".
I will keep posting my opinion on what I consider to be nothing but a modern swindle and if that bothers you that's your problem.

Where’s the swindle? We don’t profit off these ideas at all.

The OP seems interested in the ideas. Is it what he’s looking for? Seems like it but we could be totally wrong.

I don’t even brew German lagers or lagers at all, but rather Trappist inspired ales. It’s a technique to be used that we (the Royal We at our site and forum) generally, and me specifically, think makes a wonderful product that stands above what We/I made before.

What’s so wrong with that? Where are people being bamboozled, swindled, cheated, etc.?

 

[Jeff...]

Lately I've been using the Barke malts from Weyermann and they definitely have a different flavor than the standard pilsner and vienna malts. Besides ingredients, I know from my efforts to make a satisfying german pilsner, the better ones were from low OG mashes that had higher-than-normal yeast attenuation. I keep the OG of my pilsners under 1.050. I am a believer in proper mash acidification, but I don't mess too much with water chemistry (I have "softened" water).

I suspect I could make better beer by employing the LoDO techniques. But my beer is good enough for me (pilsner and vienna lager on tap atm that are pretty fine, just have to take my word for it ). If I filtered my beer, then bottled and distributed globally (at room temperature ), of course I'd need to address the DO problem. I admire you guys that do it - I just don't think I'm ever going to take it to that level.

I suspect the intent of this thread is to reproduce German lagers. But there are lots of ales brewed in Germany - here's a picture of the fermentors at a altbier brewery I visited in Dusseldorf (Fuchshen). Not so much LoDO. I don't know for sure, but maybe they only use the open fermentors for local kegs (not bottled beer). I did see their keg filling line in another area, but no bottling there.

I've been itching to brew this Crisp Pilsner of course I'll need to scale it down to a 6 gallon batch.

https://crispmalt.com/recipes/german-pilsner/

 

[Bilsch]

Gents... not trying to hijack here, but i am very curious-
Do the German Macros incorporate LODO in their brewing? Was there a reason this has been a "secret" as you mentioned above? In other words, if the Germans have been doing for a long time, how did it not make it into other cultures, that derive from German?
Thanks

Yes the German macros, as well as European, North American, Asian etc. The big three here run low oxygen brewhouses as well as some of the midsize such as Sierra Nevada, Sam Adams and New Belgium. Some people are surprised to learn that the Big 2 in Mexico are also low oxygen breweries.
Most all large breweries worry about oxygen on the hotside right the way through the process. I don't think it ever was a secret but was not identified and characterized until the 1960's by German and Japanese researchers. These new concepts were adopted by the macros soon after and, I assume, as their budget allowed.

The most prestigious brewing universities in Europe have been teaching a holistic approach to beer freshness, including reduction/elimination of oxidation on the hotside for quite some time now. As was mentioned it's most important to those making lite low hopped beers and who's product has to travel some distance.

 

[Bilsch]

I suspect I could make better beer by employing the LoDO techniques. But my beer is good enough for me (pilsner and vienna lager on tap atm that are pretty fine, just have to take my word for it ). If I filtered my beer, then bottled and distributed globally (at room temperature ), of course I'd need to address the DO problem. I admire you guys that do it - I just don't think I'm ever going to take it to that level.

I suspect the intent of this thread is to reproduce German lagers. But there are lots of ales brewed in Germany - here's a picture of the fermentors at a altbier brewery I visited in Dusseldorf (Fuchshen). Not so much LoDO. I don't know for sure, but maybe they only use the open fermentors for local kegs (not bottled beer). I did see their keg filling line in another area, but no bottling there.

To be clear when I mentioned German breweries doing low oxygen I did say Macros. As was already mentioned by Martin, the bulk of German breweries do not do this but are also making darker, more highly hopped and sour styles where the effects of stage B oxidation are not noticed as much. Most of these breweries are small and it's not practical or affordable to upgrade especially when their customer base is close and accustomed to the 'house flavors' as they call it. I've been to few Alt breweries in Dusseldorf and no they do not bother with reducing HSA however the beer is excellent especially when fresh but degrades fast. In Cologne though many konvention breweries do limit hot side oxidation because Kölsch is a light, delicate and easily damaged beer with no place for faults to hide. You would be surprised to learn, as was I, open fermenting can be done low oxygen as demonstrated by Schonramer. It's just takes different timing and some cool tricks using kreusen.

 

[Nate R]

Thanks @Bilsch for the response. Not sure how it went sideways so fast (well, ok- it is HBT- i see it all the time unfortunatly!). I was not trying to inquire the merits of lodo, but rather was curious- i did not realize it was done at a macro level.
So, for thoose macro-- say sierra nevada (i know them). Do they take active steps to boil lodo? Or is it a result of processes already in place for a macro brewing?
Thanks

 

[passedpawn]

To be clear when I mentioned German breweries doing low oxygen I did say Macros. As was already mentioned by Martin, the bulk of German breweries do not do this but are also making darker, more highly hopped and sour styles where the effects of stage B oxidation are not noticed as much. Most of these breweries are small and it's not practical or affordable to upgrade especially when their customer base is close and accustomed to the 'house flavors' as they call it. I've been to few Alt breweries in Dusseldorf and no they do not bother with reducing HSA however the beer is excellent especially when fresh but degrades fast. In Cologne though many konvention breweries do limit hot side oxidation because Kölsch is a light, delicate and easily damaged beer with no place for faults to hide. You would be surprised to learn, as was I, open fermenting can be done low oxygen as demonstrated by Schonramer. It's just takes different timing and some cool tricks using kreusen.

Right. I'm tracking 100%.

 

[Dustin_J]

Hi Jeff,

As others have mentioned, this is an awfully contentious topic for some reason. As someone who was in your shoes less than 1 year ago, I'd strongly suggest you sign up for an account for the forums at lowoxygenbrewing.com as others have suggested, do some reading, ask some questions, and try/test for yourself. I think you'll find that the crew there is both very knowledgeable and more than willing to share thoughts, suggestions, and discussions/ideas - I know they have been for me.

Here are a few things to consider:
- Nobody that is a "LODO" brewer (especially folks like Bilsch, RPI, Bryan, Rob, CavPilot, etc.) that I've seen is interested in indoctrination or trying to convince people that they are correct in any sort of absolute sense. In fact, there's constant discussion about alterations, improvements, etc.
- The vast majority of those discussion are focused on process improvement. The basic steps of "LODO" like SMB/antioxidant use; physical mitigation of oxygen ingress; deoxygenation of strike water; closed transfers/spunding; elimination (or reduction) of copper, brass, iron, etc.; and the like are a big part of the "technique" in a big picture sense, but the end goal is just sound brewing practice in all domains - cold side included.
- People test things - not just "oh I tried this once", but really do testing and trials on a variety of different techniques across the board. Sometimes the ideas tested are demonstrably better, sometimes not, sometimes they work for some and not others based on system parameters and so forth, but it's not just idle speculation and petty argument.
- People that post there are generally very well educated, intelligent, and above all, scientifically minded. Thus, they're more than willing to engage in discussion and testing regarding a wide variety of brewing topics. That's not a shot at any other homebrew forums (or their members) per se, just a note that it's a pretty sharp group of folks. Social influence is a heck of a thing, and it happens everywhere, but it's not just a bunch of week minded Sheeple being attracted by the smoke and mirrors charisma of the LODO "founders" (they're not that charismatic )

My beers, across a variety of styles, are unequivocally better for participating in those discussions and incorporating various techniques that I've learned there. They can still be better, of course, and there's continuous room for improvement, but as the ultimate judge of what I think needs to be incorporated and what doesn't, I see a lot of value. My 2 cents

 

[Bilsch]

Gents... Please let's not start a rag war. If your happy with your brews and your techniques, that's all that really counts, isn't it?

I'm not happy with either of mine, I know they could be better, that's why I asked for help. I'm still green enough to not be set in my ways. I'm very open to try and understand differnt ways to approach brewing with the goal of producing a better beer then I currently do.

LOw Dissolved Oxygen strike & sparge water makes a lot of sense to me. Once I understand the concept enough. I'm going to use it to brew a batch of one of my house brews and see how it turns out. LODO could be one of the missing pieces that I need to incorporate to produce a better beer.

There's absolutely nothing worng with a guy trying to self improve is there?

I guess you can see now what I was saying about the two factions on the forum, though in reality there are actually three. Those who adamantly believe in low oxygen brewing, those that believe there probably is something to it but don't practice it and finally those who think it's some kind of hallucination or cult belief the former group is suffering from. Back in the day, these thread wars got so out of hand, so often, the forum created a protected space for the believers to go and share their methods and experiences. That only worked for a little while as the most vocal non-believers still do occasional drive by’s in the low oxygen area, possibly because they think it’s fun or maybe they want to show off their superior enlightened intellect. On a positive note, as each day goes by group three’s numbers dwindle while the count in group one and two steadily increase. What is most curious and troubling, is the belief by some that when a brewer changes from hido to lodo and likes it, that is in some way disparaging the beer quality of hido adherents. Never understood that but it happens.

No there is certainly nothing wrong with improving ones brewing skills and if you are like me, it's the best part of brewing. Chasing after that last 5% is what has kept me in the hobby for so long.

 

[bkboiler]

I've not made a huge amount of lagers, but would say that the original concept (that sometimes gets misinterpreted) is to use the best ingredients possible.
Unfortunately, the way the law is written it's quite restrictive and can limit certain ingredients or techniques that make a better product...
Start with the best malts, best hops, tasty water, take great care of your yeast.
Get really close to knowing the background, origin and cultivation of those ingredients and why you want certain flavors in your beer...
the science behind it can certainly help, but is generally a step toward better beer, not the start. I think the original intent behind rheinheitsgebot brewing is putting the best stuff in...

 

[Bilsch]

Thanks @Bilsch for the response. Not sure how it went sideways so fast (well, ok- it is HBT- i see it all the time unfortunatly!). I was not trying to inquire the merits of lodo, but rather was curious- i did not realize it was done at a macro level.
So, for thoose macro-- say sierra nevada (i know them). Do they take active steps to boil lodo? Or is it a result of processes already in place for a macro brewing?
Thanks

The big guys don't mess around with boiling or yeast deox but instead use either column strippers such as the GEA Varidox or a membrane contact systems like 3M Liqui-cel. Essentially what these do is expose the water in counter current and high surface area to an oxygen free stripping gas like N2 or CO2 that then removes the oxygen from the water. These systems are not practical for smaller breweries mostly because of the expense but also because these systems should run continuously. That is the first most critical piece of machinery for low oxygen mashing, the next and real star of the show, is the vormaischer. This device is essentially a wet mill for the grain that feeds directly to the mashtun. The inputs to the vormaischer are heated de-aerated water and the whole malt kernels flowing to the mill through a counter-current of essentially oxygen free nitrogen or CO2. In this way the grain is milled completely free of oxygen. Lastly the slurry is fed to the bottom of the mashtun to fill without splashing or aeration which is known as underletting. The big guys aren’t as worried about surface area oxygen uptake in the mash and boil because in their large tanks, the ratio of the volume to the surface area is much much smaller. This relationship is described by the square cube law.

That is how the big guys do it but for us home brewers we need a couple of hacks to get around buying ungodly expensive membrane contactors and vormaischers as well as some simple equipment mods, like a mash cap, that helps us reduce our relative surface area.