London ESB - FG at 1.022

[safcraft]

Update Info on the NEIPA:
I bottled it at 1.022 , it did not move for 5 days.
I crashed cool for a few hours, but apparently it was not enough to drop clear.
I bottled a very very cloudy yellow beer, that shows a BIG sediment in the bottles already after 24h.
With this volume of probable yeast, i am sure it will carb in 3 days.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Good example. I think it shows that beta also gets denatured during lower temps, so it is crucial to optimize the rest lengths accordingly. But.... Why does somebody want to do an hour and a half long protein rest?? Must have been by mistake?

I am also thinking about doing a two step mash with a high alpha step at 72c to get all the starch I can, chilling the mash down to the first step afterwards again and reintroducing about 20% fresh base malt to bring in new beta to chop all those longer sugars created by the higher alpha rest.

Just for curiosity.

Actually, I would be super interested to hear the results of this experiment. I have been researching the biomass polysaccharide converting enzymes for over 20 years and one of the prevalent concepts is synergy between exo-acting (nibbling from the chain ends) and endo-acting (cleaving within polysaccharide chains) to achieve maximal depolymerization of the polysaccharide. Promoting initial starch hydrolysis by alpha-amylase (our endo) followed by beta-amylase (our exo) should provide the most complete conversion. Unfortunately, as this thread has pointed out, there is a confounding mis-match in the optimal temperatures of these enzymes, making the optimization of this approach difficult/impossible as starting with a high mash temperature for alpha-activity then dropping for beta would just kill the beta enzyme in the first step. However, Miraculix has proposed a nifty way of "re-spiking" with fresh beta-amylase after dropping the temp from an initial alpha-rest. I'd be interested to know if this works well. I'd test it.. ..but its just too much like my day job and beer is my hobby

 

[Miraculix]

Actually, I would be super interested to hear the results of this experiment. I have been researching the biomass polysaccharide converting enzymes for over 20 years and one of the prevalent concepts is synergy between exo-acting (nibbling from the chain ends) and endo-acting (cleaving within polysaccharide chains) to achieve maximal depolymerization of the polysaccharide. Promoting initial starch hydrolysis by alpha-amylase (our endo) followed by beta-amylase (our exo) should provide the most complete conversion. Unfortunately, as this thread has pointed out, there is a confounding mis-match in the optimal temperatures of these enzymes, making the optimization of this approach difficult/impossible as starting with a high mash temperature for alpha-activity then dropping for beta would just kill the beta enzyme in the first step. However, Miraculix has proposed a nifty way of "re-spiking" with fresh beta-amylase after dropping the temp from an initial alpha-rest. I'd be interested to know if this works well. I'd test it.. ..but its just too much like my day job and beer is my hobby

Looks like you got it. Also looks like you have a fun job! I have the we free so I might do this on the we. I will definitely brew, question is if it is going to be this experiment or something else. I actually planned to brew it with a yeast that cannot utilize maltotriose, but I somehow do not not feel like using this yeast for three almost identical batches but more like using a normal ale yeast and experiment with different ingredients in three batches instead....


Let's see what I will come up with.

Maybe 70% base, 30% Vienna, flame out and dry hops only. Session strength. Higher strength would be better for more obvious results, but I personally prefer session beers. Ok, will do it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

However, Miraculix has proposed a nifty way of "re-spiking" with fresh beta-amylase after dropping the temp from an initial alpha-rest. I'd be interested to know if this works well. I'd test it.. ..but its just too much like my day job and beer is my hobby

Love what you do, and you'll never work another day in your life...

It's maybe no coincidence that Miraculix comes from the German brewing tradition, where they believe in making work for themselves in the form of decoctions etc in order to fit the Reinheitsgebot. The above calls to mind the concept of a maltase rest that Weihenstephan are so keen on - mash half normally, then take down to 35-40C and add the rest of the grist which brings (easily denatured) maltase to chew up maltose released in the first mash, then proceed with the main mash as normal. Idea is that yeast make more esters when they are living on glucose without having to make maltases themselves, it's not about attenuation per se.

The other thing that comes to mind is the pH response of the different amylases - if one is relatively insensitive compared to the other, then perhaps you could think in terms of optimising temp for one and pH for the other, and getting a goodish result overall?

 

[Mer-man]

@safcraft
I think the biggest difference between Nottingham and London esb is that Nottingham can metabolize maltotriose and London cannot. Therefore, if you want higher attenuation, you want to lower the maltotriose amount in the wort!

Source? I knew I liked Notty, but that's neat.

I just want to point out that this experiment is basically a reiterated mash. I tried that, but it was for brewing a large batch and I was not going for an especially low FG.

 

[thehaze]

I've used Nottingham a few times, every time with high attenuation, somewhere between 80 and 85%. It seems not to care whether you have specialty malts added to the recipe, especially when using sugar. It just goes beserk. It is also very flocculant and forms a compact cake both in the fermenter and bottles.

 

[Miraculix]

Source? I knew I liked Notty, but that's neat.

I just want to point out that this experiment is basically a reiterated mash. I tried that, but it was for brewing a large batch and I was not going for an especially low FG.

London is a typical English yeast and a lot of those cannot handle maltotriose. I do not have a specific source, maybe google maltotriose English yeast.

Or look up the sheet for this yeast from the manufacturer.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Source? I knew I liked Notty, but that's neat.

I just want to point out that this experiment is basically a reiterated mash. I tried that, but it was for brewing a large batch and I was not going for an especially low FG.

Correct me if I am wrong because I am going off memory here, but my impression was that a reiterated mash was two mashes where the sweet wort from the first, after removal of the spent grain, was used to mash the second. My thought has been that it is mainly to increase the gravity but the fermentability is still subject to the usual variable of mash temp etc.. Miraculix is aiming for increased fermentability by mashing 80% of the grain at an alpha-optimum temperature, then dropping temperature to the beta-range without removing the grain, and then adding in the remaining 20% of fresh grain so the new beta can chew on the massive amount of substrate produced by the alpha in the first step. So, bit of a different approach to achieve a different goal, if I have recalled reiterated mashing correctly.

The other thing that comes to mind is the pH response of the different amylases - if one is relatively insensitive compared to the other, then perhaps you could think in terms of optimising temp for one and pH for the other, and getting a goodish result overall?

Northern_brewer mentioned above the potential to optimize pH, which is certainly a possibility and is common with industrial enzymes. However, the pH ranges of polysaccharide active enzymes tend to be somewhat broad with only 25-50% losses of activity outside of ~0.5-1 pH unit of the optimum. The important thing, though, is that unless we are talking extremes of pH (<~3 or >~10) enzymes typically don't denature, so they keep chugging along until something else, like temperature or chemical denaturants, kills them. In other words, with respect to pH, reaction time (mash duration) is your friend, rather than your enemy as it is with temperature. Lots of anecdotal evidence of this from people badly missing their mash pH (by accident or purpose) and still getting good conversion. Having messed around for so long with enzymes that degrade all manner of plant and seaweed polysaccharides I think (home) brewers worry far too much about whether their mash pH is +/- 0.1 pH unit off target. So, best bang for the buck, in my opinion, would seem to be to manipulate temperature to optimize synergy between the enzymes at play.

Cheers

 

[Mer-man]

To your second point first, yes - normal pH treatment.

To your first point, yes, but also. Exactly. What?
Miraculix has a good idea, but I was framing it in context of a familiar concept to extend its usefulness. I think his results will be interesting but I wanted to point out that what he is doing will be applicable to iterative mashes. One could mash the first set of grain high, and then the second set low.
So while yes, the main point of iterative mashing is to get higher gravity, you could use this approach to insure a highly fermentable all-grain wort without resorting to simple sugars - maybe.

 

[hopjuice_71]

To your second point first, yes - normal pH treatment.

To your first point, yes, but also. Exactly. What?
Miraculix has a good idea, but I was framing it in context of a familiar concept to extend its usefulness. I think his results will be interesting but I wanted to point out that what he is doing will be applicable to iterative mashes. One could mash the first set of grain high, and then the second set low.
So while yes, the main point of iterative mashing is to get higher gravity, you could use this approach to insure a highly fermentable all-grain wort without resorting to simple sugars - maybe.

Right, I understand what you are saying now. Yes, I see the concept does apply with appropriately designed mashes.

 

[Miraculix]

After my Schwarzbier desaster, I will need to refill my storage a bit, so will hopefully know more in about two or three weeks time when I have bottled the experiments from this Weekend.

I will create an extra Thread with the results of this but just to satisfy curiousity and to have it written down, here are my plans:

All beers will be about 35-40 Ibu, Flame out and dry hop addition only... maybe I will skip dry hopping. Maybe a small bittering addition, will decide on this later. All beers will be 1.06 or 1.05 OG (have not decided yet, personally I prefer session beers but higher OG would make the effect clearer but I have to drink it at the end) and London ESB will be the yeast of choice. The grainbill will be one basemalt. Either Pilsener or pa or something like this...

Beer 1: 1hour mash @ 65C
Beer 2: 2h mash @60C
Beer 3: 75% malt 30min @62C than 30min@72C afterwards chilling to 62C and addition of the remaining malt and 30 min mash

I also need to test the flavour effect of melanoidin malt for a bigger batch I wanna brew afterwards... maybe I will duplicate beer one with 5-10% melanoidin malt.

 

[hopjuice_71]

After my Schwarzbier desaster, I will need to refill my storage a bit, so will hopefully know more in about two or three weeks time when I have bottled the experiments from this Weekend.

I will create an extra Thread with the results of this but just to satisfy curiousity and to have it written down, here are my plans:

All beers will be about 35-40 Ibu, Flame out and dry hop addition only... maybe I will skip dry hopping. Maybe a small bittering addition, will decide on this later. All beers will be 1.06 or 1.05 OG (have not decided yet, personally I prefer session beers but higher OG would make the effect clearer but I have to drink it at the end) and London ESB will be the yeast of choice. The grainbill will be one basemalt. Either Pilsener or pa or something like this...

Beer 1: 1hour mash @ 65C
Beer 2: 2h mash @60C
Beer 3: 75% malt 30min @62C than 30min@72C afterwards chilling to 62C and addition of the remaining malt and 30 min mash

I also need to test the flavour effect of melanoidin malt for a bigger batch I wanna brew afterwards... maybe I will duplicate beer one with 5-10% melanoidin malt.

I really like this idea and its great you are willing to test this! I don't want to hijack your experiment but perhaps the more informative (but admittedly more risky) beer 3 would be to start with 75% at 72C for some time, drop to 62C, and then add the last 25%. A bit simpler and its a more direct test of the the concept. Just a thought. But I'm pretty impressed you can bang out 3 batches in a weekend! I'll be watching for results.

 

[Mer-man]

@Miraculix, can you also share what malt you are using and, if you have it, the diastatic power of that malt?

 

[Miraculix]

I really like this idea and its great you are willing to test this! I don't want to hijack your experiment but perhaps the more informative (but admittedly more risky) beer 3 would be to start with 75% at 72C for some time, drop to 62C, and then add the last 25%. A bit simpler and its a more direct test of the the concept. Just a thought. But I'm pretty impressed you can bang out 3 batches in a weekend! I'll be watching for results.

That is actually quite a good idea, but I really try to max out the beta activity and I would sacrifice almost 75% of it this way. Maybe I will check this version in a later run but for now I keep the initial beta rest.

Regarding three batches on one we, the secret lies in the sizing of those batches. Going to be 2 or three one gallon batches and one 2 gallon one.

@Mer-man
Yes I will. I might add ten percent oats. My last experiment did show they increase yeast health immensely and do give some nice body without any flavour.

 

[safcraft]

That is actually quite a good idea, but I really try to max out the beta activity and I would sacrifice almost 75% of it this way. Maybe I will check this version in a later run but for now I keep the initial beta rest.

Regarding three batches on one we, the secret lies in the sizing of those batches. Going to be 2 or three one gallon batches and one 2 gallon one.

@Mer-man
Yes I will. I might add ten percent oats. My last experiment did show they increase yeast health immensely and do give some nice body without any flavour.

How will you lower the temp from 72 to 62 ? Add cold water to the mash ?
I am thinking how i could mimic this in my Grainfather, without messing with the water volume...Maybe using the chiller during the mash (never done this! )

 

[Miraculix]

How will you lower the temp from 72 to 62 ? Add cold water to the mash ?
I am thinking how i could mimic this in my Grainfather, without messing with the water volume...Maybe using the chiller during the mash (never done this! )

The beauty of a one gallon batch on the hob lies in the fact that you can dunk the kettle into a water bath

Good old sink chiller ftw

I guess using a normal chiller in the mash would be also fine.

 

[Miraculix]

OK, I brewed them. 2x4l and 1x8l. 4l 2h@60C, 4l 75% malt 30 min @61c 30 min @72c, +25%malt and 40min @61C, 8l 1h@65C.

What a day.... although they are small, quite some hustle with all the different temperature steps and mash outs at different times etc pp//..

They are (no) chilling in the kitchen right now, will do the sink chiller tomorrow to get them down to pitching temperature and meassure the gravity. Did go for something between 1.065 and 1.06. Let's see were we are tomorrow. Ibu wise, it is around 40, got 2.5g Magnum @60min per 4l and 8g williamette @flame out per 4l. Will dry hop with 12g Williamette per 4l.

I have choosen Williamette because I never used it, and as this is already a big experiment, let's acquire the most new knowledge possible.

 

[Miraculix]

OK guys, OGs are in. This is seriously getting interesting.

Beer1 (1h mash @65C): 1.067 = about 85% efficiency

Beer 2 (2h mash @61c): 1.072 = about 91% efficiency

Beer 3 (75% malt 30 min @60c, than 30min @72, than 61c + remaining 25% basemalt in form of Heidelberg malt for 40 min): OG 1.069 = about 93-94% efficiency (WTF!?)

Malt was 50% Heidelberg (the lightest malt i have ever seen 1.5L, HIGH diastetic power) and 50% extra pale MO + 2% acidulated malt.

I had different volumes in ther fermenters, that is why there is no direct correlation between the different efficiencies and OGs.

Those beers are going to be heavy!

I went with a litle bittering addition of Magnum at 60 min and a bigger addition Williamette at flame out. No chill afterwards, it was at pitching temp this morning. I rehydrated NBS "Classic English Ale Yeast" which is a rebranded version of London ESB. All three batches together are 16litres, I split the whole pack of yeast on it. The Pack was 12g yeast and meant for 25litres of wort, I overpitched which I guess was a good thing regarding the high starting gravities.

Will dry hop with 2-3g per l with Williamette once fermentation is nearly finished.

Let's see what happens!

 

[safcraft]

Miraculix this is very very good info ! Kudos on sharing this experiment!
I don't quite follow your 93% efficiency on the beer 3, as this was 1.069 OG, against the 1.072 on the beer2 with 91% ? Is this different quantity of base malt / water ? Or is it a typo ? Also, I assume this is mash efficiency and not brewhouse efficiency correct ?

The interesting part is now see where they finish off too, as this will give us very important info on what the ESB can chew.

Thank again for sharing
Rock on

 

[Mer-man]

White Labs sells a mix of WLP002 and WLP001 so you can get attenuation and the English flavour profile. Maybe consider a blend as a backup solution?

 

[Miraculix]

Miraculix this is very very good info ! Kudos on sharing this experiment!
I don't quite follow your 93% efficiency on the beer 3, as this was 1.069 OG, against the 1.072 on the beer2 with 91% ? Is this different quantity of base malt / water ? Or is it a typo ? Also, I assume this is mash efficiency and not brewhouse efficiency correct ?

The interesting part is now see where they finish off too, as this will give us very important info on what the ESB can chew.

Thank again for sharing
Rock on

I have different final volumes in the fermenters as I added some water after the boil due to different boil off rates. I also tried to get the ogs a bit in line, as some of the liquors were as strong as 1.09 after the boil. That's why a lower og can still be a higher efficiency compared to the others.

It is brewhouse efficiency.

 

[brewbama]

London ESB does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units).

Maltotriose is present in wort in an average 10-15% of all malt worts. The result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in beer. Be advised to adjust gravities and mash temperatures according to desired result.

 

[safcraft]

I have different final volumes in the fermenters as I added some water after the boil due to different boil off rates. I also tried to get the ogs a bit in line, as some of the liquors were as strong as 1.09 after the boil. That's why a lower og can still be a higher efficiency compared to the others.

It is brewhouse efficiency.

wow...brewhouse of 90%+ , you are touching comercial scale brewing.
I never had over 85%, but for 23L batches...

Really really interested in knowing what the FG will be in those 3 beers.
What temp are you fermenting ? Is ti ambient temp or controlled environment?
Thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

wow...brewhouse of 90%+ , you are touching comercial scale brewing.
I never had over 85%, but for 23L batches...

Really really interested in knowing what the FG will be in those 3 beers.
What temp are you fermenting ? Is ti ambient temp or controlled environment?
Thanks!

Yes exactly! I also never had anything beyond 85%, I was also heavily surprised when reading the numbers myself.

Unfortunately, it is uncontrolled. One bucket with 8 litre and two glass demijons with about 4 litres each. I had activity in less then three hours after pitching the yeast. The good thing about this yeast is that it is really really fast and aggressive so we might see results in less than two weeks.

 

[Miraculix]

This beast off a yeast is already done. Two days for a 1.072 og beer. I pitched on Saturday morning, went away till Sunday night, came back saw marks of high krausen but missed the high krausen itself. I shook the smaller fermenters a bit but not much happened any now. They are now starting to drop clear. I will dry hop for a week, later today.

 

[safcraft]

My last 2 beers were the NEIPA and a ESB using this yeast.
Both fermented in 3-4 days and never moved since. This is indeed a fast yeast, you can start measuring FG soon.

 

[Miraculix]

My last 2 beers were the NEIPA and a ESB using this yeast.
Both fermented in 3-4 days and never moved since. This is indeed a fast yeast, you can start measuring FG soon.

I used it for a braggot once, about 1.1 og, was also done in less than a week.


Dry hops have enzymatic activity on their own and might restart fermentation a little bit so I will wait till I bottle, with the measurements.