LODO and BIAB

[jdauria]

At the risk of derailing this thread, do commercial breweries adhere to LODO practices?

Notch in Salem Mass uses LoDo on some of their beers, their German/Czech Lagers are crazy good. I think some other lager focused breweries across the country may also. But pretty much every brewery around the country focuses on preventing oxygen ingress, more for shelf stability than anything else, but not in the same way as LoDO.

 

[h22lude]

The "gunk" is the yeast in suspension. It does not affect clarity. Your barley has all kinds of bacteria and yeast on it regardless.

I'l have to look for that thread. I thought the thread starter said even after mashing they had black gunk on the bottom of the kettle that they don't get when preboiling. I'll try to find it. But in any case, sounds like others have had good success with the yeast method. I might have to try it out.

 

[jdauria]

What's your process to remove the grain bag? It seems like that step has a lot of potential for aeration as well.

I raise the bag with a pulley until it's just above the wort, so that the wort coming out of the bag is just flowing into the wort in kettle and not splashing, then just yank the back up and out as quick as possible after a few minutes. I am sure I am picking up oxygen, but it's limited compared to just letting the bag hang and drip and squeezing it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'l have to look for that thread. I thought the thread starter said even after mashing they had black gunk on the bottom of the kettle that they don't get when preboiling. I'll try to find it. But in any case, sounds like others have had good success with the yeast method. I might have to try it out.

I provided the link to the LOB blog post up above. That page links to the data posted by @Bilsch on the German brewing website.

I didn't see anything about residue problems discussed on the thread, but it looks like some content has been removed.

@jdauria Thanks for the explanation!

 

[h22lude]

I raise the bag with a pulley until it's just above the wort, so that the wort coming out of the bag is just flowing into the wort in kettle and not splashing, then just yank the back up and out as quick as possible after a few minutes. I am sure I am picking up oxygen, but it's limited compared to just letting the bag hang and drip and squeezing it.

That is how I do it too. I'm sure oxygen is picked up in the wort coming from the bag but it is a very small amount and shouldn't affect the entire batch.

 

[h22lude]

I provided the link to the LOB blog post up above. That page links to the data posted by @Bilsch on the German brewing website.

I didn't see anything about residue problems discussed on the thread, but it looks like some content has been removed.

@jdauria Thanks for the explanation!

This is it http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=312&hilit=yeast+scavenge

It was actual Bryan that tried BIAB with yeast scavenging and got the black gunk I was talking about.

 

[RPh_Guy]

This is it http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=312&hilit=yeast+scavenge

It was actual Bryan that tried BIAB with yeast scavenging and got the black gunk I was talking about.

Interesting. We don't know whether the YOS was the cause though. I don't normally BIAB, so please report back if/when you try it.

 

[Broothru]

Belgian, I don't think so. Not sure.
German breweries generally yes, but imports to the US are usually stale.
British beer, quite the opposite, it's generally very oxidized.

Low oxygen brewing (and the process recommended by the developers of this method) has a lot of advantages to improving flavor and prolonging shelf life.
It's up to you to decide how good is good enough, or whether you prefer oxidized beer.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE low oxygen beer and other beer mostly tastes stale to me, the large majority US commerical beer. The effort it is taking to dial in my process is more than justified from the resulting beer in my opinion.

Bring water to 90-100°F
Add 2g/gal bread yeast and dextrose.
Cap and allow to sit for at least 60 minutes, 90 might be better.
Add active oxygen scavengers right before dough in.

So do you NOT pre-boil the strike water and rapid chill before dough-in? The pre-boil seems to liberate a huge amount of dissolved O2. Or would a 5 minute rapid boil and chill to "90-100F, and dextrose and yeast, stand for 60-90 mins" be beneficial or simply overkill?

One last query: how long can the yeast oxygen scavenged water stand before mash-in? I'm thinking in terms of prepping the water maybe the evening before brew day, perhaps prepping in capping the water in advance. TIA.

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

There's been some recent discussion on the LOB forum that simply boiling for a short time and chilling does not deoxygenate effectively; it's not just boiling temperature, but gas exchange that's needed, so at least a half hour boil with lots of bubbles, it seems. IIRC it still does not get the level down as low as yeast scavenging.

Yeast scavenging treatment can be done the night before brewday, which is when I like to set everything up. Bring to 90-100F, add dextrose and yeast, and cap to prevent any additional atmospheric diffusion. The initial tests of the YOS method (posted on German Brewing, linked on LOB) found that DO was down to about 0.2ppm in under 2 hours, but also that, even in a completely open vessel, it was still holding at the same level after 17 hours! Yeast can consume oxygen at a much faster rate than atmospheric diffusion can replace it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

So do you NOT pre-boil the strike water and rapid chill before dough-in? The pre-boil seems to liberate a huge amount of dissolved O2. Or would a 5 minute rapid boil and chill to "90-100F, and dextrose and yeast, stand for 60-90 mins" be beneficial or simply overkill?

I'd call that overkill. Use either method, not both.

 

[Broothru]

Robert & RPh,

Thanks for your comments and insights. I clearly need to start spending more time on the LOB site. I've been incorporating LoDO techniques and have seen marked improvement in my finished beers. Somehow I'd totally missed yeast oxygen scavenging, but now I'm really excited about giving it a try.

Santa's not gonna be happy when she hears that her 'elf' needs a new D.O. meter!

Brooo Brother

 

[RPh_Guy]

A DO meter is optional.

 

[Paulaner]

Robert & RPh,

Thanks for your comments and insights. I clearly need to start spending more time on the LOB site. I've been incorporating LoDO techniques and have seen marked improvement in my finished beers. Somehow I'd totally missed yeast oxygen scavenging, but now I'm really excited about giving it a try.

Santa's not gonna be happy when she hears that her 'elf' needs a new D.O. meter!

Brooo Brother

I would focus on upgrading your brewery for best practices first, then worry about buying a D.O. meter. Me personally, I kept putting off buying one, now I'm glad I did since I'm completely overhauling my setup to include brucontrol. I'll incorporate automated O2 monitoring and I don't have an expensive piece of equipment sitting in my basement collecting dust.

 

[Robert65]

Do German/Belgian/British breweries do it?

It kind of begs the question, right? If the breweries who make your favorite beer don't do it, why would I do it?

One thing to keep in mind is that on larger commercial scales, vulnerability to HSO is much less than it is on the homebrew scale anyway. Strike liquor from the HLT may be at least partially deoxygenated to start with (moreso than ours) and because of the greatly reduced surface area to volume ratio on a large system, potential for oxygen ingress is much less. So even conventional commercial outfits are low-er oxygen by a considerable degree than conventional homebrew systems. So special measures are more critical for homebrewers. Homebrewers wishing to emulate even conventional US, British, or Continental brewing are probably well advised to incorporate at least some low oxygen measures. Full implementation is needed to emulate the most modern, industrial macro plants in Germany, but there are many German breweries not operating on this level. That said, homebrew is so vulnerable, any measures taken will improve any of our efforts.

 

[Broothru]

I would focus on upgrading your brewery for best practices first, then worry about buying a D.O. meter. Me personally, I kept putting off buying one, now I'm glad I did since I'm completely overhauling my setup to include brucontrol. I'll incorporate automated O2 monitoring and I don't have an expensive piece of equipment sitting in my basement collecting dust.

Yeah, the D.O. meter comment was tongue-in-cheek. SWMBO (aka, "Santa") holds an over-ride veto on future equipment purchases for the foreseeable future.

I'm gradually but steadily moving in fully incorporating LoDO. So far I've pre-boiled strike water and dosed with Meta prior to mash-in, underlet mash water, utilized continuous recirculation with a mash cap, went to no sparge, achieve only a simmering boil, reduce boil time to a minimum, chill with a stainless IC vs. copper, transfer to sealed/purged fermenter on the hot side.

On the cold side I initially chill the fresh wort for a few hours to precipitate some trub and hot/cold break out of the conical. Then I inject the starter yeast followed by oxygenation (pitch BEFORE O2). After high krausen is reached I do a second trub dump. At ~5 pts. before FG I cap the fermentation and spund to 15 psig. When gravity is stable for 3-5 days I crash it for about 48 hours, followed by a pressure transfer to a serving keg for a few weeks to condition and clear fully.

I'm not sure how I overlooked yeast oxygen scavenging of strike water but I'm anxious to give it a try. I've become a strong advocate of LoDO as much as practical since I can really see a significant improvement and extended shelf life in my beers. Presently on tap are an American Wheat and a high IBU IPA. The IPA was brewed late July and the wheat early June. The wheat still tastes fresh, and only recently have the hops started to fade noticeably in the IPA.

Fortunately both kegs are close to kicking and will be replaced just in time for the holidays with another hoppy IPA and a high octane Winter Warmer that have been chillin' in the beer fridge. Can't wait for the next decent brew day in the new year to try out YOS water treatment.

Brooo Brother

 

[RPh_Guy]

Good stuff.
You may want to try spunding in the keg instead of the fermenter.

 

[Broothru]

Good stuff.
You may want to try spunding in the keg instead of the fermenter.

I started out spunding in kegs. I'd ferment down to ~5 psi in my conical that would only pressurize to 2-3 psi safely, then do a transfer under low pressure to a keg to finish fermentation as well as carbonate. Now with a unitank I can save one transfer and finish a week earlier.

I still spund in a keg if I'm doing two beers simultaneously. But I really like being able to avoid the extra racking, as well as crash and carb in the same vessel. But both ways work quite well.

Brooo Brother

 

[RPh_Guy]

There's no extra transfer, you leave it in the keg.

 

[Robert65]

Yep, that's the point, no transfer after fermentation. So the oxygen inevitably picked up in transfer, no matter how tight, is consumed by yeast. Frees up fermenter faster, makes better beer, simpler. What's not to like?

 

[Spin711]

Is there a concern about not leaving it on the yeast long enough to clean up diacetyl or other flavor compounds? Or is it the thought that pitching the correct amount of healthy and vital yeast does a lot to limit these? Or there is enough yeast during the transfer to metabolize these compounds in the keg?

I have always heard it’s best to keep beer on the yeast until after a diacetyl rest, then cold crash and transfer. I’ve always wondered if spunding in a fermenting keg results in less desirable flavor compounds as there’s a lot of yeast in the vessel under higher pressure, potentially releasing off flavors.

 

[Broothru]

Is there a concern about not leaving it on the yeast long enough to clean up diacetyl or other flavor compounds? Or is it the thought that pitching the correct amount of healthy and vital yeast does a lot to limit these? Or there is enough yeast during the transfer to metabolize these compounds in the keg?

I have always heard it’s best to keep beer on the yeast until after a diacetyl rest, then cold crash and transfer. I’ve always wondered if spunding in a fermenting keg results in less desirable flavor compounds as there’s a lot of yeast in the vessel under higher pressure, potentially releasing off flavors.

That has been my concern as well. After spunding in the keg I'd transfer under pressure to a purged serving keg. The finished beer is remarkably clear after crashing and conditioning, with all the trub and yeast left behind in the spunding keg.

With a unitank I go directly to carb, crash and conditioning without an intermediate transfer to a spunding keg. I also save on CO2 from the conical to spunding keg and go grain to glass one week sooner with no loss of quality.

Since it usually takes me at least 4-6 weeks to go through a single keg I need to have a beer stay 'fresh' at least 3 months. Incorporating LoDO techniques has helped immensely, including hop flavors and aromas, in keeping things lively.

Brooo Brother

 

[Die_Beerery]

Never transfer still beer, ever.

 

[Robert65]

Brooo Brother, transferring your beer after fermentation is a guaranteed way to make sure it won't stay fresh 3 days, let alone 3 months. Spund in the serving keg and take as many months as you like to drink it, that's what will preserve all those fresh flavors you're concerned about. It will also drop crystal clear in there. You can either draw most of the sediment in the first couple of pints, or use a trimmed or floating dip tube and never draw any sediment. Try it once and you'll never go back.

 

[Broothru]

Yep, that's the point, no transfer after fermentation. So the oxygen inevitably picked up in transfer, no matter how tight, is consumed by yeast. Frees up fermenter faster, makes better beer, simpler. What's not to like?

We can agree that no transfer is going to be 100% oxygen free, although when I prep my serving kegs I do an NaMeta full volume purge pushed by CO2 from the blowout tube of the fermenter at high krausen. Later when the beer is carbed, it literally pressure transfers itself from one oxygen scavenged vessel to another. With any luck at all I never have to use bottled CO2 from a welding supply.

I know it's not perfect but it's pretty darn good for an old guy not wearing a lab coat.

Brooo Brother

 

[Broothru]

Never transfer still beer, ever.

Yes, but it's not 'still' if it's still fermenting at >5 points above terminal gravity. Once the beer is finished it transfers from unitank to serving keg fully carbed.

Brooo Brother

 

[Broothru]

Brooo Brother, transferring your beer after fermentation is a guaranteed way to make sure it won't stay fresh 3 days, let alone 3 months. Spund in the serving keg and take as many months as you like to drink it, that's what will preserve all those fresh flavors you're concerned about. It will also drop crystal clear in there. You can either draw most of the sediment in the first couple of pints, or use a trimmed or floating dip tube and never draw any sediment. Try it once and you'll never go back.

'Clear' is a relative description. I don't filter to achieve brilliant clarity but rather crash to get 'very good' (again relative term), clarity. Since it's not Pastuerized or polished with a 0.4 micron sterilizing filter there are still a few brave soldier yeasts suspended in the keg. Even at serving temperature they continue affecting the chemistry, however slightly.

I'm not striving to make a beer that will survive the zombie apocalypse or age as gracefully as the remainder of the case of 1958 Chateau Y'Quem I have cellaring. Just long enough (and clear enough) to get me to the 'kick' and still be drinkable.

But the methodology I'm working to develop is showing promising results. Nevertheless it remains a work in progress, and I'm grateful for the help and suggestions you guys are offering up.

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

'Clear' is a relative description.

Spunded in serving keg. Relatively clear.

 

[Broothru]

Spunded in serving keg. Relatively clear. View attachment 656942

Yeah, I'd say "clearly you win". Pretty nice lookin'. Helles perhaps?

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

Yeah, I'd say "clearly you win". Pretty nice lookin'. Helles perhaps?

Brooo Brother

Specifically, Weyermann Barke Pilsner with 5% CaraHell.

 

[rkhanso]

I'm not sure I would know the difference between low oxygen brewed beer and not.
Is there a good commercial product I could buy to compare with a non low-oxygen similar beer?
I prefer ales, stouts if possible.