LODO and BIAB

[stevehaun]

duplicate post

 

[stevehaun]

Never transfer still beer, ever.

By "still beer", do you mean uncarbonated or beer that is done fermenting?

 

[Die_Beerery]

By "still beer", do you mean uncarbonated or beer that is done fermenting?

Yes.

 

[Broothru]

Specifically, Weyermann Barke Pilsner with 5% CaraHell.

Sweet! Simple yet elegant. Helles and Koelsch are two of my favorite beers. I still believe that it is much more difficult to produce a quality German pilsner than an American IPA (especially a NEIPA). In all that golden goodness there's just no place for flaws to hide.

Beautiful pic and delicious looking beer.

Brooo Brother

 

[artichoke]

For my next couple of brews, I'd like to experiment with the yeast scavenging method to de-oxygenate strike water, it seems so straightforward and elegant. I apologize if this is buried in the thread somewhere, but has anyone experienced any down sides to using this method?

Thanks.

- AC

 

[Die_Beerery]

Once the beer is finished it transfers from unitank to serving keg fully carbed.

Yes that is exactly what we are saying. You are oxidizing the beer doing that.

 

[NeoBrew]

Yes that is exactly what we are saying. You are oxidizing the beer doing that.

I'm not sure I follow this. Can you explain what needs to happen to transfer finished beer without oxidizing?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is there a good commercial product I could buy to compare with a non low-oxygen similar beer?
I prefer ales, stouts if possible.

Unfortunately no.

For my next couple of brews, I'd like to experiment with the yeast scavenging method to de-oxygenate strike water, it seems so straightforward and elegant. I apologize if this is buried in the thread somewhere, but has anyone experienced any down sides to using this method?

I haven't had any off flavors from YOS and can't imagine there would be any issues from it.

I'm not sure I follow this. Can you explain what needs to happen to transfer finished beer without oxidizing?

Spunding. Only transfer beer that is actively fermenting.

Only active yeast will rapidly consume oxygen.

 

[Broothru]

Yes that is exactly what we are saying. You are oxidizing the beer doing that.

I'll have to plead ignorance on this one. If the beer was fermented start to finish in a previously purged, closed container after having been mashed and boiled using LoDO protocols on the hot side, and is then transferred under positive self-generated CO2 pressure into a purged serving vessel, where is the potential for anything other than trace amounts of oxygen ingress.

How is this different from spunding in a keg? I'm not saying oxidation can't happen. I just don't see the mechanism.

Brooo Brother

 

[Die_Beerery]

I'm not sure I follow this. Can you explain what needs to happen to transfer finished beer without oxidizing?

It simply can't be done, even at the uber pro macro level (where they are HYPER sensitive and critical to all things oxygen) transferring still beer picks up DO.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I'll have to plead ignorance on this one. If the beer was fermented start to finish in a previously purged, closed container after having been mashed and boiled using LoDO protocols on the hot side, and is then transferred under positive self-generated CO2 pressure into a purged serving vessel, where is the potential for anything other than trace amounts of oxygen ingress.

How is this different from spunding in a keg? I'm not saying oxidation can't happen. I just don't see the mechanism.

Brooo Brother

Purged how? Verified how? Have you taken into consideration the permeation of the transfer tubing and gaskets in the vessels? What’s a trace amount? How do you measure the amount you pick up?

Simply put its not possible on any level to transfer a finished beer without picking up DO.

 

[Broothru]

Purged how? Verified how? Have you taken into consideration the permeation of the transfer tubing and gaskets in the vessels?

Simply put its not possible on any level to transfer a finished beer without picking up DO.

First off, I really enjoyed the pod casts on LOB. Good information and experimentation in the search for better beer brewing. Keep 'em coming.

As for my protocols: Recieving keg filled with NaMeta aqueous solution (2 grams per 5 gal. water), liquid displaced by CO2 harvested from blow off line from active high krausen with residual drained from shortened gas-in post while inverted. Then spund-carbed beer transferred from fermenter at approximately 15 psig into recieving keg, presumedly with a small amount of viable yeast cells.

Might there be a small ingress of O2. Sure, I suppose, but just as likely there are random bacteria and other spoilage organisms hitching a ride or pre-existing in the fermenter or spunding keg as well. The issue isn't ultimate purity but the degree to which unwanted compounds can be reduced so as to not denigrate our finished product. Personally I worry more about PVCs leaching from plastic transfer lines than the minimal potential oxygen ingress from the brief time beer might be in a silicon transfer line.

Zero O2 is an unattainable goal. As long as oxygen is present in air there will be D.O. in water. There's also likely dueturium that results in "heavy water" as well but we don't obsess over eliminating the barely 1 in 6,000 random hydrogen isotopes and how they would react in brewing beer. If zero O2 were the only acceptable objective we never would have had pubs and rathskellers, because the beer had to get put into those kegs somehow and it wasn't as oxygen-free as the all-or-nothing absolutest methodologies we're talking about in LoDO.

I've seen improvement in the quality and stability of my beers since adopting LoDO techniques but I have to believe that the goal should be to achieve discernable results using logically obtainable practices.

I might try spiking my serving keg with a little krausening speise when I transfer from the unitank. The yeast oxygen scavenging of strike water also looks like a promising technique. Short of that I don't think I'll be abandoning the unitank to serving keg method without some pretty convincing evidence.

Brooo Brother

 

[Paulaner]

I'm not sure I would know the difference between low oxygen brewed beer and not.
Is there a good commercial product I could buy to compare with a non low-oxygen similar beer?
I prefer ales, stouts if possible.

Hit up Utepils, they're low oxygen and make some decent beer, especially their Helles.

 

[Die_Beerery]

First off, I really enjoyed the pod casts on LOB. Good information and experimentation in the search for better beer brewing. Keep 'em coming.

As for my protocols: Recieving keg filled with NaMeta aqueous solution (2 grams per 5 gal. water), liquid displaced by CO2 harvested from blow off line from active high krausen with residual drained from shortened gas-in post while inverted. Then spund-carbed beer transferred from fermenter at approximately 15 psig into recieving keg, presumedly with a small amount of viable yeast cells.

Might there be a small ingress of O2. Sure, I suppose, but just as likely there are random bacteria and other spoilage organisms hitching a ride or pre-existing in the fermenter or spunding keg as well. The issue isn't ultimate purity but the degree to which unwanted compounds can be reduced so as to not denigrate our finished product. Personally I worry more about PVCs leaching from plastic transfer lines than the minimal potential oxygen ingress from the brief time beer might be in a silicon transfer line.

Zero O2 is an unattainable goal. As long as oxygen is present in air there will be D.O. in water. There's also likely dueturium that results in "heavy water" as well but we don't obsess over eliminating the barely 1 in 6,000 random hydrogen isotopes and how they would react in brewing beer. If zero O2 were the only acceptable objective we never would have had pubs and rathskellers, because the beer had to get put into those kegs somehow and it wasn't as oxygen-free as the all-or-nothing absolutest methodologies we're talking about in LoDO.

I've seen improvement in the quality and stability of my beers since adopting LoDO techniques but I have to believe that the goal should be to achieve discernable results using logically obtainable practices.

I might try spiking my serving keg with a little krausening speise when I transfer from the unitank. The yeast oxygen scavenging of strike water also looks like a promising technique. Short of that I don't think I'll be abandoning the unitank to serving keg method without some pretty convincing evidence.

Brooo Brother

The logically obtainable, and by far easiest solution is to transfer beer from your fermenter to your final package with 1% extract remaining. You are doing work arounds that are outside of the normal boundries of the LOB process, and are unneeded, to justify your use of a untiank. I use a unitank method when I do 20bbl batches, and to negate the use of a brite and an additional transfer. In homebrewing there is zero need for a untiank, and due to square cube it is oxidixing your batch 100 fold more than the 20bbl batch on that still transfer. Not trying to be a dick, but it seems you are married to a piece of equipment over being married to beer betterment.

At the end of the day, you do you though. Just trying to help.

Also for reference, and so we are clear on how much 150ppb (the UPPER MOST acceptable limit of packaged beer) is. If you flip around a crown cap and were to fill that up with air, that would be too much, if it entered into your packaged beer. Also for reference if your purged keg used normal beverage grade co2, you would have more than that.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Hit up Utepils, they're low oxygen and make some decent beer, especially their Helles.

Notsomuch anymore. I have noticed a severe dropoff in quaility.


Just get a fresh Guinness.

 

[Broothru]

The logically obtainable, and by far easiest solution is to transfer beer from your fermenter to your final package with 1% extract remaining.

Theoretically, if OG were 1.065 and FG were 1.015 (assuming there are still minute amounts of yeast in the "finished" beer), then the amount of remaing extract would be 1% if 'FG' actually continued to fall to only 1.0145. Adding a small volume of speise would ensure yeast oxygen scavenging would continue if the original yeast had become totally dormant.

How is "final" is Final Gravity, and how is it determined? Three days of consecutive 'stable' measurements? In a recent conversation with the head brewmaster of a popular local commercial brewery, he told me of an experimental pilot batch they've had fermenting since October 2018 that is still fermenting. I know my equipment and methodologies aren't capable of detecting such a subtle yet continuing fermentation.

As to the cubic volume of 20 bbl unitank being 100 fold greater than a 7 gallon one, I grasp the math and concede the point. But that also begs the question: doesn't that imply that there'd be 100x the amount of oxygen in a 100 fold greater volume? If so, that beer must be awfully stale. More to the point, how does that beer get from the 20 bbl tank into kegs for distribution without introducing even more 02?

I know I'm probably missing something here, but assuming that the 20 bbl beer and my 7 gallon beer taste good and have reasonable shelf life, I can only surmise that the volume of O2, be it gaseous or aqueous, is either being reduced/scavenged 'enough' or is not a real world problem worthy of extreme measures.

Focusing on the things we DO agree on, I fall on the side of eliminating O2 as do you. Where we seem to differ is to the degree necessary and the steps required to reach that point. I've used the "spund in serving keg" method and agree it works well. I also have several unitank fermentations with transfer to serving keg under my belt, and the results have also been equally good if not better, not simply "more expensive." I pressure transfer using fermentation CO2, not bottled gas. I fully purge my recieving keg with NaMeta and push it out with fermentation CO2. The only place I can envision any O2 incursion, even a bottle cap full, is a trace amount from the bottled CO2 from the kegerator or the lines going from keg to tap. In the short time from tap to sip I'm not too concerned with oxidation.

Again, I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative. Quite the contrary I salute your work and experimentation as well as your passionate advocacy for low oxygen brewing. I'm open to change and willing to be the old dog learning new tricks. Notwithstanding my investment in a unitank and an assortment of accessories, I'll admit a mistake if I can be convinced. But my experiences to date (hopefully not clouded by shiny new bling) haven't brought me to that point. Yet.

Cheers for the Holidays and New Year,

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

By "1% fermentable extract remaing," what is meant, is with 1% fermentable extract by weight remaining, aka, by definition, 1°P (or approximately sp. gr.1.004) above expected final as determined by FFT. This is sufficient to carbonate.

 

[Broothru]

By "1% fermentable extract remaing," what is meant, is with 1% fermentable extract by weight remaining, aka, by definition, 1°P (or approximately sp. gr.1.004) above expected final as determined by FFT. This is sufficient to carbonate.

Roger, that. Sometimes I'm a slow learner!

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

I guess I properly should have said 0.004 instead of 1.004. But you got the idea so I won't go back and edit.