Local Brewpub kind of sucks...

[Homercidal]

So I went to a local brewpub to sample a beer or two while waiting for the kids to finish their dance classes. I've been to this place a couple of times and have never been wowed. This last time I started seriously asking myself why I'm wasting my money on their beer, when they also carry a very nice selection of regional beers (then I asked myself why I'd pay pub prices for something that I could probably buy at the beer store for 1/2 price)!

Anyway, they had something called a "Belgian Brown", which was described by the brewer once as having all Belgian malts. The waitress thought that he used Belgian yeast as well. I don't know. I felt a slickness on the tongue and it had an odd aroma that I would not associate necessarily with Belgian beers.

Then they had a Cream Ale, which was too heavy, too sweet, and too strong IMO.

They brew in 20 gallon boil kettle and ferment in 40 gallon fermenters, IIRC. They brew extract.

Maybe I'm becoming a bit of a snob, but IMO it should not be too hard to hit SG using extract, and fermentation control OUGHT to be the most important thing a brewer can focus on (besides sanitation obviously) if they are going to sell their beer. I'm not tasting that in the beer.

I know he's talked about some equipment upgrades, but I REALLY want to talk them into going AG. Yes it will add a bit of complexity to their brewing calculations, and some additional time during the brew day, but I honestly think they will get a cleaner tasting beer than what they are doing now.

After talking to the brewer, I think he has a pretty good feel for the brewing process, but hasn't mastered the art of making good extract beers. I KNOW that it's possible to make great extract beers if you are careful and aware of a few things.

I'm just torn between lending my opinion, and hurting their feelings.

 

[509inc]

I'm surprised to hear that a brew pub is making extract beers.

 

[Revvy]

I'm surprised to hear that a brew pub is making extract beers.

Why would you be??? Lots of brewpubs use extract, and most make excellent beer. LD carlson's biggest business is selling extract to professional breweries around the world.

Which pub is it?

 

[Homercidal]

I'm surprised to hear that a brew pub is making extract beers.

I was too, a little bit. It's a cafe that got an upgrade to their liquor license and started brewing in-house. Small affair, but with a potential clientele.

At first I was excited, and liked a couple of their early beers. Stronger beers, or hoppier beers. The lighter stuff is a bit of a challenge I guess.

From what I'm tasting (and I'm no expert!) it almost seem like they are starting too high, not dropping low enough, and fermenting too warm.

 

[IrregularPulse]

I'm surprised to hear that a brew pub is making extract beers.

Same Here

Why would you be???

Because if you're running a brewery you would be concerned about cost and extract is way more expensive than AG even at the HB scale. Sure you have equipment cost, but that would be recovered.

I was too, a little bit. It's a cafe that got an upgrade to their liquor license and started brewing in-house. Small affair, but with a potential clientele.

At first I was excited, and liked a couple of their early beers. Stronger beers, or hoppier beers. The lighter stuff is a bit of a challenge I guess.

From what I'm tasting (and I'm no expert!) it almost seem like they are starting too high, not dropping low enough, and fermenting too warm.

Sounds like the guy just said wtf and went for it. Hopefully he improves over time like we all do. He just happens to be in the public eye while he's learning. Could hurt him though gaining a reputation for less than stellar beer making.

 

[Homercidal]

Why would you be??? Lots of brewpubs use extract, and most make excellent beer. LD carlson's biggest business is selling extract to professional breweries around the world.

Which pub is it?

It's a small place called The Blue Cow Cafe. Very nice little restaurant. Good food. A bit pricey, but that is the sort of place it is.

I think the brewmaster is still learning and getting a feel for things. Let's be clear. The place is not a brewery offering food. They are a restaurant wanting to offer craft beer.

I think with good brewing practices, and some experience, it can be what they hope to be. But last night, I kind of lost some of my hopes for the place.

And there is a rumour that another place in town is pursuing the brewpub route as well. This other place is called Crankers, and they are an "eclectic" eatery. Not one of my favorite places in town, but I haven't been there since they opened either. I just didn't care for the ambiance. The food was just ok. It felt more like a cafeteria/diner to me. I can't imagine it hosting craft beer. (unless they've changed the layout and remodeled since I've been there...)

 

[Revvy]

Same Here


Because if you're running a brewery you would be concerned about cost and extract is way more expensive than AG even at the HB scale. Sure you have equipment cost, but that would be recovered.

Not on the high volume discount and wholesale prices brewpubs and breweries are paying for it. Just because it is expensive for the homebrewer in a few pounds doesn't mean it's the same price in hundred or two hundred pound barrels.

Guys get out of the AG vs Extract Snobbery here, MANY more commercial brewing places use extract than you all might think. Just like some breweries ALSO use dry yeast on this planet.....We wouldn't have access to extract or yeast or malted barely even, if there wasn't FIRST a commercial use for it.

You think enough extract gets sold to homebrewers on this planet to justify a single maltser's existence, let alone all the maltser that make it. Including the ones that we don't think of right away, like Blue Ribbon/Premier Malt extract Company in Michigan?

Here's what Premier has to say on their website.

Premier is a primary supplier to the craft brewing industry in North America.

In the rapidly expanding market for specialty brewed beers and designer malt beverages we can offer to the brewer and malt beverage producer a complete line of products to both expand the limits of plant capacities as well as enhance the most desired characteristics brew masters and beverage makers seek.

So tell me guys, if it's not going to micro breweries to make beer, then where is it going if it's the "primary supplier to the craft brewing industry?"

And this from "The Brewer's Market Guide."

Long before Prohibition wiped out all but the most stalwart brewing companies, Pabst Brewing Company operated a division dedicated to extract development. In 1982, this division was purchased by a private buyer and thenceforth became known as Premier Malt Products, Inc. The company is now a leading independent supplier of domestic and imported malt extracts, both liquid and dry. Premier also recently extended the range of products it provides to U.S. customers by joining ranks with Pauls Malt (Mistley, England), the largest malt producer in the UK, in an exclusive distribution agreement.

 

[DrawTap88]

For all you know, this new brewer could have only half a clue as to what he's doing. If you see a way to improve his beer, I'm sure he would be thankful as long as you present your improvements in a friendly manner.

 

[Homercidal]

Well, they are a small place and I wonder if they get much of a discount. I heard that they were buying ingredients from Siciliano's Market in GR. So it's more like a homebrew beer than your usual brewpub.

I'm just feeling a little frustrated because I really want them to offer beer as good as the food, and bring a bit of pride to the town. But the more I go there, the more I think they could be doing so much better.

I know it takes some $$ and effort to brew larger batches, but a few dollars here and there can get most everything you would need. I have not seen the fermentation area, and fermenters to know if they have any decent temp control. I'd love to check it out and maybe even help on brewday if I could find the time. I would just feel funny being a homebrewer offering advice to a brewmaster in the business. I've only ever looked up to those guys.

 

[Revvy]

Well, they are a small place and I wonder if they get much of a discount. I heard that they were buying ingredients from Siciliano's Market in GR. So it's more like a homebrew beer than your usual brewpub.

I'm just feeling a little frustrated because I really want them to offer beer as good as the food, and bring a bit of pride to the town. But the more I go there, the more I think they could be doing so much better.

I know it takes some $$ and effort to brew larger batches, but a few dollars here and there can get most everything you would need. I have not seen the fermentation area, and fermenters to know if they have any decent temp control. I'd love to check it out and maybe even help on brewday if I could find the time. I would just feel funny being a homebrewer offering advice to a brewmaster in the business. I've only ever looked up to those guys.

Sadly a lot of breweries, around the country (and a few in the metro detroit area) think their crap has no odor) and their beer sucks, you're not the first homebrewer who has complained about a brewpub, nor are you the first who has wanted to help.

Eventually the market will decide...if they don't like the beer, it will tank.

If you want to step up and talk to them, don't diminish your knowledge and talents by thinking yourself as a lowly homebrewer....Even Sam Caligone was one, and for all you know, their "brewmaster" is a self designated one, with no formal training or experience. But even if he did, doesn't mean he knows how to make great beer.


You know the different between great beer and lousy beer, is simply process. Not whether it is extract or Ag or whatever, but time, temp control and good recipe, enough yeast yadda yadda yadda....

If you feel passionate about helping make it a success, go for it. But don't be surprised if you get the brush off. It's 50-50 whether it will be met with derision, or joy.

 

[HenryHill]

There's more than one cafe or restaurant that wants to have a bragging point and stroke their own ego, just like there's more than one celebrity who wants his (or her) own 'vanity beverage'. (Who makes a special point to buy Kid Rock beer?) Maybe to appear to be more competent in food/beverage presentation, or to appeal to a more well-healed clientele.

That doesn't mean it tastes good to experienced competent HBers.

You put the right hops into an AIPA and get the right judges and you can win an award over better crafted beers with less desirable hops, in the eyes of the judges. It can happen, especially in something where hops can hide a lot of sins.

It may not be strictly the use of extract that makes the beer seem less than appealing, it may be that the people involved don't know they're doing, and extract is an easier way to get in the game, with their limited skills or experience or capitol for equipment. And let's face it, a vendor doesn't care either way if you are making good beer or not as long as he can sell the ingredients, he cool with it. If there's a buyer, there's a seller.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

Since I would like to open a Brewpub some day, I have done a bit of research on the topic.

There are quite a few large extract brewing systems aimed at the brewpub market.

Also, we tend to forget that extract brews win many contests. Sure, you have more control with AG, but extract can make VERY good beer.

Or, as in the OP's example, very crappy beer...

 

[3 Dog Brew]

This thread really caught my attention. Some of my brewing buddies and I are evaluating (costing, demographics, licensing, reality ) the prospect of starting a BrewPub in Houston. They are so few and far between that we feel a GOOD brewpub will be well received.

One of the items we have discussed openly from the very beginning is the embracing of the local home-brew community. There is no excuse for passing off bad beer on the public. We've talked about having "experimental" offerings, but they would be clearly labeled and offered at less than reasonable rates so that we can solicit feedback. If it sucks, the public doesn't pay much and feels like they purchased the right to give us honest feedback.

On the other hand, if we get every homebrewer offering their "free advice", I can see that getting tedious after a while.

Sorry, my reply is kinda rambling and all over the place, but I'm at work and shouldn't even be on here right now.

 

[HenryHill]

Sadly a lot of breweries, around the country (and a few in the metro detroit area) think their crap has no odor) and their beer sucks, you're not the first homebrewer who has complained about a brewpub, nor are you the first who has wanted to help.

Eventually the market will decide...if they don't like the beer, it will tank.


No, there are people who will continue to drink it, (possibly for the feeling of drinking better beer than macro, they are now elite) and they could make crappy beer for decades. Try telling the guy who has bought that beer for years that it sucks if you think telling the brewer is hard.

If you want to step up and talk to them, don't diminish your knowledge and talents by thinking yourself as a lowly homebrewer....Even Sam Caligone was one, and for all you know, their "brewmaster" is a self designated one, with no formal training or experience. But even if he did, doesn't mean he knows how to make great beer.


You know the different between great beer and lousy beer, is simply process.

And recipe, and aging and a million other things that are unique to that brewer. Process is simply the tech that is used; there is a combination of things that make a good beer a good beer, much of it that is art.

If you feel passionate about helping make it a success, go for it. But don't be surprised if you get the brush off. It's 50-50 whether it will be met with derision, or joy.

I'm thinking that no matter how he reacts to your face, his real reaction is somewhat less open-minded.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

I have no problem with a brewpub using extract. However, if they can't make a good beer using extract I have no confidence switching to AG will make things better.

 

[509inc]

Guys get out of the AG vs Extract Snobbery here, MANY more commercial brewing places use extract than you all might think. Just like some breweries ALSO use dry yeast on this planet.....We wouldn't have access to extract or yeast or malted barely even, if there wasn't FIRST a commercial use for it.

[/QUOTE]

No Snobbery here. Just stupidity. I was under the impression malt extract was made for home brewers without all gain equipment.

 

[Revvy]

And recipe, and aging and a million other things that are unique to that brewer. Process is simply the tech that is used; there is a combination of things that make a good beer a good beer, much of it that is art.

I think your definition of process is different than mine, when I use process, what you are saying IS my definition of process. That unique combination of art and skill, and tips and tricks and knowledge, and technique that each of us develops through time, experimentation and experience. And is different for each of us.

 

[Revvy]

I think we're all past the Extract vs Ag part of the discussion, and hopefully back to the REAL point of the thread, Homercidal wondering if he should approach the brewpup and how he should do it.

 

[HenryHill]

Revvy, I'd be interested to know, in your eyes, who in MI makes brewery/brewpub beer from extract that is impressive?

I know of a restaurant that set up a brewery and they have EXCELLENT beer, but they went all grain-Big Rock Chop House.

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, I'd be interested to know, in your eyes, who in MI makes brewery/brewpub beer from extract that is impressive?

I know of a restaurant that set up a brewery and they have EXCELLENT beer, but they went all grain-Big Rock Chop House.

I'm not saying I've necessarily have had any stellar exrtract brew pub beers, in Michigan or anywhere. Or even that I necessarily know what so and so brewery uses...In a great brewery we shouldn't be able to tell the difference, whether it is a homebrewed beer or a commercial, in a well made beer, with the best and freshest ingredients, we should not be able to tell if a beer is extract or not.

Hell, I think many of the microbreweries/brewpubs in metro detroit suck to begin with, whether they use grain or extract. There's only a handful that I frequent regularly, I usually give a place 3 chances before I don't give it anymore business. Thank god we have a ton in Michigan to enjoy. I've even gotten reamed on hbt for complaining about a couple of them, and I gave them multiple chances and still hated them (I'm not going to name them again.)

And again, I really don't think that is the point of this thread, to become another useless AG vs extract argument.....I'm not going to participate in it. I think it's one of those waste of time discussions that we've had ad nauseum with no resolution.

But I was originally just saying to think that every commercial brewery/or microbrewery in north America is all grain is patently naive. There's a reason that extract exists, and it's NOT because of hombrewers......IIRC Maureen Ogles goes into the history of Malt Extract in the Commercial brewing industry in her book. IIRC it was Pabst that was the first to use extract commercially, in their own beers.......

 

[HenryHill]

My kid and his buddy went to into Windsor for fun one night and stopped in down town Detroit for a few before going over. I can't say for sure which one it was now, so I won't mention it, (although I am fairly sure who it was) but Jon and his buds at college know craft beer and prefer it when money is not an issue or the day deserves a quality beverage.

They go into the pub, order their flagship IPA, and it comes totally FLAT, and smelling poorly. They refuse the beer, as it was undrinkable. The server refuses to offer a refund or another beer, and they walk out. But the place is very much still in business, and probably will be for some time.

They are so few and far between that we feel a GOOD brewpub will be well received.

One of the items we have discussed openly from the very beginning is the embracing of the local home-brew community.

So I agree with 3 Dog Brew, that there are a lot of breweries and brewpubs around, in every state, but really good ones are rare, and one reason that the good ones ARE good is because of having or at least making good use of the local talent of home brewers-a clientele you should avidly seek out both for customers AND feedback, as well as a source of your brewers.

The places that just set-up a simple extract brewery operation are most likely NOT giving the customers taste experience much credit, and as such, show themselves to be merely going thru the motions. It is not much of a coincidence. This does not mean that an operation cannot make stellar offerings from extract, but the ones who are serving poorly made ones are doing so from an arrogant ignorance, and it STILL probably will be able to sell.

 

[Revvy]

They go into the pub, order their flagship IPA, and it comes totally FLAT, and smelling poorly. They refuse the beer, as it was undrinkable. The server refuses to offer a refund or another beer, and they walk out. But the place is very much still in business, and probably will be for some time.

I can think of a few in Metro Detroit like that, which I won't name, which will be around despite the quality...but in smaller markets, I think a sucky brewpub is going to fold, or go back to selling commercial beers and drop the brewpub idea dead (especially if it is using one of those crappy "addabrewpub" turnkey setups, which pop up on the market every now and then.)


But sadly even some good breweries/brewpubs have died out. What's the one that used to be on 75 heading north in the pontiac area, wasn't that "big buck brewery?" And anyone in Michigan remember "Bad Frog?"

 

[Homercidal]

I'm not interested in an extract vs AG discussion of any kind. My only reason for mentioning was so that you have an idea of his brewing method. Whichever way he brews he is having problems, and the flavors and textures that I get when I drink the beer may be related to his brewing using extract, and the particular method that he employees while brewing it. We could discuss freshness (I have no doubt he is using fresh extract if he is buying it from Siciliano's Market, judging by their turnover), Late Extract Additions, Full Boils, etc.

But it's all speculation without knowing exactly what is going on during the brewing and fermentation.

THe brewer seems to have plenty of knowledge about brewing, but we all know that it's not always going to add up to tasty beer. Hate to say it, but there is some amount of luck, and/or art involved, especially until you have figured out how to put that knowledge into practice and make it work.

I just think he needs a few outside tasters to speak honestly about the beer. I am not sure if they realize that the beer isn't up to snuff. Because even if they realize it, you know it takes time and money to re-brew the batch and have something to offer. They may be willing to simply put it out there and wait for comments/feedback. I don't know.

I don't know that I'd even have the answer to the problem, but I just feel the urge to make it a respected establishment, for the community pride. I mean, it's not THAT hard to make good beer, right??

 

[Revvy]

THe brewer seems to have plenty of knowledge about brewing, but we all know that it's not always going to add up to tasty beer. Hate to say it, but there is some amount of luck, and/or art involved, especially until you have figured out how to put that knowledge into practice and make it work.

I just think he needs a few outside tasters to speak honestly about the beer. I am not sure if they realize that the beer isn't up to snuff. Because even if they realize it, you know it takes time and money to re-brew the batch and have something to offer. They may be willing to simply put it out there and wait for comments/feedback. I don't know.

I don't know that I'd even have the answer to the problem, but I just feel the urge to make it a respected establishment, for the community pride. I mean, it's not THAT hard to make good beer, right??

I agree totally. And I think you should approach them. I think what I highlighted happens a lot, especially in new places, or places doing the turnkey thing...They just honestly don't know how bad their beer is.

 

[Homercidal]

I can think of a few in Metro Detroit like that, which I won't name, which will be around despite the quality...but in smaller markets, I think a sucky brewpub is going to fold, or go back to selling commercial beers and drop the brewpub idea dead (especially if it is using one of those crappy "addabrewpub" turnkey setups, which pop up on the market every now and then.)


But sadly even some good breweries/brewpubs have died out. What's the one that used to be on 75 heading north in the pontiac area, wasn't that "big buck brewery?" And anyone in Michigan remember "Bad Frog?"

I think it WAS Big Buck. There is still 1 location in Gaylord. I think they couldn't handle the expansion of the franchise. They came in at a pretty good time, as brewpubs were a new thing then. But I remember going to the one in GR and thought the food was mediocre at best. Beer not much better (but I was young and naive then).

I remember Bad Frog. Not a bad beer, but not that special either. I think they sold most of their beer with the label art only.

I bought a few beers once and tried 3 different bottles of Atwater. All three were off the mark. 1 was the dirty blonde, which I thought was infected (could have been the particular recipe), 1 was bad tasting, and the last one was a gusher. They have won awards. I personally will not choose one of their beers at the store now. I'm not saying the make bad beer, but I will say that I have not enjoyed the beer of theirs that I can remember having.

Back to the local place: I would not mind asking to help on brewday if they will have me. Who knows if they would accept my offer for free assistance. That way I could get a good look at their setup and see if there is anything I could say or do to improve on it. I know the last time I talked to him he mentioned getting some new equipment to make it easier to brew. There may be some issues with space and equipment.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Not on the high volume discount and wholesale prices brewpubs and breweries are paying for it. Just because it is expensive for the homebrewer in a few pounds doesn't mean it's the same price in hundred or two hundred pound barrels.

Guys get out of the AG vs Extract Snobbery here, MANY more commercial brewing places use extract than you all might think. Just like some breweries ALSO use dry yeast on this planet.....We wouldn't have access to extract or yeast or malted barely even, if there wasn't FIRST a commercial use for it.

Didn't mean to come off as a "snobby AG" brewer. The question was "Why are we surprised". I told you why I was surprised. We don't all live in locations where there is an abundance of small breweries so we don't all get to see the differences commercial practices. I have 1 micro brewery and that is an hour away. I did spent 2 years traveling the country and stopped at many brew pubs and breweries. The only ones I saw that had equipment on display had Grain setups. Thus my surprise that some commercial brewers use extract.

 

[Homercidal]

This place does not have a turnkey system. And it shouldn't matter. We all know that as long as you understand your equipment, and how it affects the brewing process, you can make award-winning beer on nearly anything. You just have to account for it's particular properties.

Maybe the next time we have a get-together with other HBT members, I'll try to grab a growler so a few of us can sample and comment. Lord knows when that will be. I don't know why I'm even considering brewing over there. I can't even find time to brew with the guys in town who want to get together! I think brewday in November. At least I have a garage to brew in!

 

[chrispykid]

I think it WAS Big Buck.
Back to the local place: I would not mind asking to help on brewday if they will have me. Who knows if they would accept my offer for free assistance. That way I could get a good look at their setup and see if there is anything I could say or do to improve on it. I know the last time I talked to him he mentioned getting some new equipment to make it easier to brew. There may be some issues with space and equipment.

Good strategy. If possible I'd hold off on much/any criticism until you establish your bona fides as a guy that a) has the right motivations b) has a legit palette and c) has specific doable recommendations about how to improve the process.

My guess is that the bigger potential for improvement will come in fermentation temperature control, sanitation practices and maybe some recipe formulation recommendations rather than strictly all grain vs extract. If they're cooking food in the same space I can imagine that it would be a challenging environment in terms of sanitation. But like you say, you're not going to be able to pinpoint the problem until you know something about the process.

 

[Zamial]

I would go in the next time for a pint of whatever you think is their best beer. Order one up. Have a few drinks of your pint, boot or whatever they serve it in. Then strike up a conversation with the bartender or wait staff.

This is really easy to do BTW just make a positive comment on the beer. Next explain that you brew your own beer and think it would "make your day" if you could get a "brewery tour".

Arrange for the brewery tour so you can see what is going on, before making suggestions. After the tour the guide will ask if you have any questions or comments most of the time and if they do not ask, then offer up the truth.

Explain that you brew beer at home and you really enjoy the entire "experience" but the beer is lacking. Then explain what you think you can do to improve their beer or the process to improve the beer.

Customer feed back is HUGE in any service industry. Especially when it is genuine. I would not go in as a "know it all" or being harsh. Pick your words carefully, we are proud of our creations, I am sure they are as well!

 

[Homercidal]

Yeah, it's a homebrew setup. I think they move gear around as needed. Not really a brewery that has it's own defined space. I know he's said he boils on the large stove they cook on. I know the owner of the place (or one of the owners) helps him brew and possibly one or more of the staff helps I think too.

Maybe if I brought in a few bottles of my best beer for him to take home and offered to come in on my time and help him brew, even if it's just to "see how the pros do it" and I only got to clean up, I could see what's going on.