Liquid Lager Yeast not starting?

[Delaney]

Hi,

I'm currently in the middle a 60 minute boil for my pilsner, which I'm using a liquid lager yeast for. It's the kind where you pop something inside, swish the liquid around, and 3-4 hours later it's ready.


I'm not sure if it's because I crushed the bubbles by swirling the stuff once in a while within that 3 hour period...but I don't see any significant expansion of the package...Is there a way to tell when I open if it's it's activated or not?

The yeast is called WYEAST pilsner lager

 

[OneGallonHomebrew]

I've never gotten a bad Wyeast smack pack (what those are commonly called, btw) - but it is possible. I would imagine you're not going to see the rapid expansion from a lager yeast as you would from something like an English Ale yeast. Sometimes those packets look like they're going to blow by the 60 minute mark.

Has it been the full 3 hours?

I always swish it around every once in a while after I smack it, so I don't think its that.

I know when you open one that has been going real well you can hear it fizzing, but I wouldn't open it. Honestly if it hasn't swollen at all and you're sure of that, I'd take it back to the LHBS and see what they think / get another one. It may be a huge PITA, but the packets are supposed to swell so you know they're good before you drop them in... Otherwise you might as well just use dry yeast and cross your fingers.

 

[Lucky137]

Hi,

I'm currently in the middle a 60 minute boil for my pilsner, which I'm using a liquid lager yeast for. It's the kind where you pop something inside, swish the liquid around, and 3-4 hours later it's ready.


I'm not sure if it's because I crushed the bubbles by swirling the stuff once in a while within that 3 hour period...but I don't see any significant expansion of the package...Is there a way to tell when I open if it's it's activated or not?

The yeast is called WYEAST pilsner lager

Did the yeast stay refrigerated more or less up to the point when you smacked it? I'm not sure exactly what the time periods are for these things, but I know that if you leave the pack out, unsmacked, for an extended period of time, it can have bad effects on the yeast insde.

 

[Yooper]

Lagers need a LOT of yeast, since they are fermented cold. They almost always need a starter, made a week or so in advance, but some people will just use extra packages instead of making a starter.

The directions are poor, by the way. They tell you to pitch warm and then lower the temperature to 50 degrees when you see signs of active fermentation. That almost always doesn't wort, as you don't want to actually ferment the lager above 50 degrees.

If you're using one smackpack of Wyeast, you'll be underpitching by quite a bit. Don't be surprised if the lager takes 72 hours or longer to start.

In any case, if the smackpack hasn't swollen yet, that's not really that big of a deal. Next time, make a starter any time you use liquid yeast and you won't have to worry.

 

[Delaney]

Lagers need a LOT of yeast, since they are fermented cold. They almost always need a starter, made a week or so in advance, but some people will just use extra packages instead of making a starter.

The directions are poor, by the way. They tell you to pitch warm and then lower the temperature to 50 degrees when you see signs of active fermentation. That almost always doesn't wort, as you don't want to actually ferment the lager above 50 degrees.

If you're using one smackpack of Wyeast, you'll be underpitching by quite a bit. Don't be surprised if the lager takes 72 hours or longer to start.

In any case, if the smackpack hasn't swollen yet, that's not really that big of a deal. Next time, make a starter any time you use liquid yeast and you won't have to worry.

Hey,

so the packet costs $10 and I don't feel like buying another...can I add yeast nutrients or something to boost activity levels if I don't like what I see in a day or two...

The stuff was fizzing...I brought it to the store and they said it doesn't always inflate... The temp was at 110F not long ago so I just threw in some ice cubes....are you saying I should get the temp down to 50F before I pitch yeast????? I think the wine cellar I'm using is leaning more towards the 60F side of things than 50F anyhow....

 

[Yooper]

Hey,

so the packet costs $10 and I don't feel like buying another...can I add yeast nutrients or something to boost activity levels if I don't like what I see in a day or two...

The stuff was fizzing...I brought it to the store and they said it doesn't always inflate... The temp was at 110F not long ago so I just threw in some ice cubes....are you saying I should get the temp down to 50F before I pitch yeast????? I think the wine cellar I'm using is leaning more towards the 60F side of things than 50F anyhow....

A good lager is fermented at 48-52 degrees (beer temperature, not room temperature), depending on yeast strain. Lagers can be a bit challenging, even for experienced brewers. After fermentation is over, many lagers need a diacetyl rest before the lagering period. I only make a few lagers a year, because they are a huge pain for me most of the time!

 

[Delaney]

A good lager is fermented at 48-52 degrees (beer temperature, not room temperature), depending on yeast strain. Lagers can be a bit challenging, even for experienced brewers. After fermentation is over, many lagers need a diacetyl rest before the lagering period. I only make a few lagers a year, because they are a huge pain for me most of the time!

Hmmmm...thanks for the good advice. I love you man(or mam) you've helped me so much today.

I have a ghetto fridge downstairs which I think would serve this purpose quite well...I just need permission from the family.

Now, let me ask how significant of a difference 50F-60F/65F will make when fermenting the lager, and why?

I modified the recipe I was using and put in Saaz hops for flavour and aroma instead of of Saphir...so it's sort of going to be a blonde/pilsner of sorts??? Might this affect fermentation temperature or no?

 

[Maxkling]

Fermentation temperature in my opinion is one of the top 3 items that develops the taste of the beer. With ales, if you ferment the same beer at 65 and one at 70 they will have very different flavors (especially depending on the yeast). Lagers are just as bad if not worse than ales. Another of the top 3 is pitching rate (amount of healthy yeast).

But go for it and youll notice first had how important things are, its a learning experience.

 

[Delaney]

Well the wort was at 90, I threw some ice in...and pitched the yeast a few minutes later...so I'm assuming it was 85F

It's so bloody hot here I had to go swimming, I couldnt wait around for it to cool...it had been 45 minutes since the boil ended so I figured it was time....

The brew is in my fridge, which I'm confidant will bring the temp. down to ~50F...It's already much cooler, but I'll wait for the temperature to settle before peeking again. I've got a thermometer that I just left in throughout the boil...I'll fool around with fridge settings to hone the temperature into the sweet spot.

 

[Delaney]

So its's been about 60 hours now...I gave the wort a strong stirring for aeration at 40 min....

Well I just checked again my temp was 45F...this is on the cool side of things.

Ive been tweaking my fridge settings to get them just right for this.


I do see little conglomerates now of small bubbles...I'm pretty sure this is yeast...

How long should I expect for stronger yeast activity?

Will there be a frothy foam as with other beers?

 

[jigidyjim]

Wait it out. Is this a 5 gallon batch? You waaaaaay underpitched. What temp is it at?

My first lager I made a small starter which is still under pitching. It barely started to ferment at around 80 hours, and the entire fermentation was very slow and not very noticeable.

To go back to the original topic - a pack that doesn't swell doesn't necessarily mean bad yeast. It could be, but there could be other reasons.

 

[Delaney]

Okay so if I under-pitched, should I pitch more?

If I have to break down and spend the $10 on more yeast I will...twould be better than letting this batch go to waste

would I be able to pitch another pack or would I have to make a starter myself???

 

[jigidyjim]

What temp is it at? you could also warm it up, at the risk of producing diacteyl (or other off flavors) in hopes of kick starting it, then bring the temp back down.

Like I said, it was around 80 hours when I first saw fermentation on my first lager.

 

[Delaney]

58F for first 24 gours, then it was at 45-46F...Im tweaking with fridge settings to get things right...Im aiming for 52-54F

Would you recommend doing this and a solid rest period??? before secondary?
Or should I wait and give the yeasties time?

 

[Delaney]

Wait it out. Is this a 5 gallon batch? You waaaaaay underpitched. What temp is it at?

My first lager I made a small starter which is still under pitching. It barely started to ferment at around 80 hours, and the entire fermentation was very slow and not very noticeable.

To go back to the original topic - a pack that doesn't swell doesn't necessarily mean bad yeast. It could be, but there could be other reasons.

Incorrect...the package I'm using is designed for 5 gallon batches..
the package you were using was likely only a propagator???
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=16

Anyways I just took the wort out of the fridge to slowly raise temp to 75F...will leave there for 24 hours to see if something happens. It has already been 72 hours.

 

[mr_bell]

Incorrect...the package I'm using is designed for 5 gallon batches..
the package you were using was likely only a propagator???
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=16

Anyways I just took the wort out of the fridge to slowly raise temp to 75F...will leave there for 24 hours to see if something happens. It has already been 72 hours.

Curious, how many batches have you brewed prior to this one? I've been brewing 3.5 years, 6 (5 gallon) batches per year and haven't attempted a lager yetm, so I am not speaking from experience here but rather from what I've read over the years. The only piece I want to acquire before attempting a lager is a temp controller.

The size of the package of yeast (propogater or activator) has nothing to do with how much yeast is needed for a given batch. It is dependent on the OG of the wort, batch size, and also lager vs. ale--lagers need a larger pitch. Take a look at Mr. Malty's pitch rate calculator, which is a useful tool, whether brewing an ale or lager

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

In some cases 1 pack or vial of yeast may be adequate, but it depends...

 

[Delaney]

Hmmm thats interesting...

I had an OG of 1.057...


so I guess I pitched 1/4 of what I should have according to this calculator, because my package contained 100 billion yeast cells.

What should I do now...just give them extra time and raise temperature until I see something start up? Or do a starter and maintain low temperature until it is ready?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Curious, how many batches have you brewed prior to this one? I've been brewing 3.5 years, 6 (5 gallon) batches per year and haven't attempted a lager yetm, so I am not speaking from experience here but rather from what I've read over the years. The only piece I want to acquire before attempting a lager is a temp controller.

The size of the package of yeast (propogater or activator) has nothing to do with how much yeast is needed for a given batch. It is dependent on the OG of the wort, batch size, and also lager vs. ale--lagers need a larger pitch. Take a look at Mr. Malty's pitch rate calculator, which is a useful tool, whether brewing an ale or lager

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

In some cases 1 pack or vial of yeast may be adequate, but it depends...

What he said. My guess for a lager like yours, an appropriate pitch rate would be a starter of a few liters or more. I don't feel like plugging numbers into mr malty for you, but no matter how many gallons your batch is, a single smack pack is a gross underpitch. That holds true for almost every beer. With liquid yeast you need to make an appropriate size starter.
I suggest doing some reading on the subject before trying your next batch:
'how to brew' by Palmer
'yeast' by jamil z and chris white
'complete joy of HB' by papazian
And read as much as you an here on HBT, this site's a great resource for home brewers who wish to learn more.

 

[Delaney]

Understood that I am a newcomer to brewing, and have MUCH to learn...

Meanwhile, I need a simple straightforward answer, as to what should be done in my situation to salvage my lager...as it has been 72 hours and I'm starting to get worried about contamination

-Begin a starter? (is it too late?)
-Raise temps of wort?
-throw 2 more activators with 200Billion more yeast cells?

 

[Delaney]

Is my yeast going to start if I leave it be, understanding this would take more time?

Obviously I had my head in the sand about yeast use in brewing...I'm willing to do a starter now, but I don't want to go through the trouble if it's not going to accelerate things at this point

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Honestly, I'd make and pitch an appropriate sized starter. I'm sure of the options you listed, that'd be your best bet. I've never brewed a lager, nor had a situation in which I needed a repitch. But, with so few yeast cells from your first pitch there to do a big job (lagers are long, cool fermentations), my guess would be that pitching more would give you enough yeast. I'm not saying it'll be ideal, 72 hrs with stressed yeast working on your beer (they get stressed when there's too few of them and produce off flavors) probably affected your brew, but having enough yeast around for the long haul to clean up couldn't hurt.
Next time make sure you're pitching enough cells by making a starter. Way cheaper than buying multiple packs (3-5 for avg lagers), more fun cuz you get to play with beer more, and a worry free way to ensure your yeast is viable and in appropriate numbers to kick that sweet wort into delicious beer.

 

[eastoak]

you could pitch more yeast, that would help. in the future don't feel hurried to pitch the yeast if you don't have enough yeast to pitch. in this case you could have let the wort sit in a cold water bath overnight while you made a big starter then pitched in the morning. you pitched at 85 degrees? that's too hot. better to add those cubes to a water bath, set the boil kettle in that cold water, go make a starter. patience is the number one ingredient when brewing beer.

 

[jigidyjim]

Personally I'd raise the temp and see what happens, but YMMV. The reason why most yeast manufacturers tell you to pitch warm then drop the temp is because they know you will likely be under pitching, and the heat will help get the yeast going. The reason people on this board tell you to pitch cool is because they assume you are pitching the right amount of yeast, and pitching cool will avoid off flavors.

At any rate, You could also pitch another pack directly without making a starter, so you don't have to wait a few more days.

I don't know the answer, I've only done 3 lagers and none have gone perfectly yet.

 

[Delaney]

Personally I'd raise the temp and see what happens, but YMMV. The reason why most yeast manufacturers tell you to pitch warm then drop the temp is because they know you will likely be under pitching, and the heat will help get the yeast going. The reason people on this board tell you to pitch cool is because they assume you are pitching the right amount of yeast, and pitching cool will avoid off flavors.

At any rate, You could also pitch another pack directly without making a starter, so you don't have to wait a few more days.

I don't know the answer, I've only done 3 lagers and none have gone perfectly yet.

Even in the calculator provided by WYEAST, which recommends to use a starter, they still indicate that fermentation should be started at 70F, then dropped.

I don't really want to add more extract to the brew at this point...Can I siphon off .5 gallons of the existing wort, and ferment it at 70F with some additional yeast, then use this to start things up?

 

[Delaney]

This is according to WYEAST...so maybe I should just pitch another pack

Pitch Rate:

Lagers typically have a reduced ester profile and are characterized as clean with discernable malt character. It is very important to recognize that pitch rate is directly related to ester production. Increasing the quantity of yeast pitched is the most effective method of reducing the ester profile in the finished beer. A minimum of 12 million cells per milliliter is recommended to keep esters at a minimum.

One Wyeast Activator pack will deliver about 6 million cells per milliliter to 5 gallons of wort. In order to increase this rate to 12 million cells per milliliter it is necessary to either pitch two Activators or to make a 0.5 gallon (2 liter) starter with an Activator. If a starter is made using a Propagator (50ml package) then the starter needs to be 1 gallon (3.78 liters) to achieve 12 million cells per ml.

 

[Delaney]

I'm going to buy the yeast now...will decide when I get back whether to do a starter, or to pitch directly into primary. Thanks to all for taking the time to help me, I really appreciate it

My guess is the best results would be obtained if I kept the main wort at a low temp of around 50F to avoid off flavouring as much as possible, and the starter separately?...

 

[Yooper]

Even in the calculator provided by WYEAST, which recommends to use a starter, they still indicate that fermentation should be started at 70F, then dropped.

I don't really want to add more extract to the brew at this point...Can I siphon off .5 gallons of the existing wort, and ferment it at 70F with some additional yeast, then use this to start things up?

Yes, my only gripe with Wyeast (which provide great products) is that they tell you to pitch too warm to help compensate for the gross underpitching. That may "work" but won't provide the best results in an ale, let alone a lager.

If you have NO activity after 72 hours at 50 degrees, you may pitch another package of yeast. Or two.

 

[EROK]

For this batch you could run out and get some DRY lager yeast, to save this batch.

Next time make a starter according to Mr. Malty, and you will come out fine.

We all go through the goof-ups initially, your process will get better once you get more experienced.

 

[Delaney]

LOLLLLL

I just went to the beer store, the idiot owner was re-iterating what his employee told me the other day, which was that you can just pitch that single yeast pack straight into the primary for a 5 gallon batch. I told him he was incorrect, and to verify this with the WYEAST website that contradicts such information...he told me I was wrong, and that it will just take longer to ferment with a single package, but that it has no effect on the quality of the beer...

It doesn't help that the WYEAST package isteld does indicate that a single package is to be added directly to the primary fermenter for a 5 gallon batch of beer, at room temperature. This contradicts their website information, which specifies that for a lager it's necessary to use a started, or two packages in order to obtain 12 million yeast/ml...


I'm pissed...at WYEAST and the redneck Quebecer's who only care about ABV%.

Furhermore, the store only had a propagator(25 billion) package of my yeast strain left, not an activator (100 billion)...The owner told me he'd give it to me half price since it was a year old! lol...what a joke, somebody just lost my business.

 

[Delaney]

Yeah the OG is still at 1.054...I called places and there is no other store nearby which sells the yeast I need...Dry yeast it?

 

[bottlebomber]

A little off topic here, but im kind of gearing up to do my first lager and I was wondering about the stater- do you allow it to ferment out at ale temperatures? The wort will be decanted off anyway, but will this have an effect on the yeast. I really don't want to put my stirplate in the refrigerator

 

[Yooper]

A little off topic here, but im kind of gearing up to do my first lager and I was wondering about the stater- do you allow it to ferment out at ale temperatures? The wort will be decanted off anyway, but will this have an effect on the yeast. I really don't want to put my stirplate in the refrigerator

Yes. You can make the starter at room temperature. After all, you're growing yeast, not making the beer. If you're decanting, then room temperature is fine!

 

[Delaney]

Ok so I cannot buy more of the yeast strain I'd been using anytime soon...Should I give this more time and raise temps a bit, or keep it cool and use a dry lager yeast?

 

[jigidyjim]

LOLLLLL

I just went to the beer store, the idiot owner was re-iterating what his employee told me the other day, which was that you can just pitch that single yeast pack straight into the primary for a 5 gallon batch. I told him he was incorrect, and to verify this with the WYEAST website that contradicts such information...he told me I was wrong, and that it will just take longer to ferment with a single package, but that it has no effect on the quality of the beer...

It doesn't help that the WYEAST package isteld does indicate that a single package is to be added directly to the primary fermenter for a 5 gallon batch of beer, at room temperature. This contradicts their website information, which specifies that for a lager it's necessary to use a started, or two packages in order to obtain 12 million yeast/ml...


I'm pissed...at WYEAST and the redneck Quebecer's who only care about ABV%.

Furhermore, the store only had a propagator(25 billion) package of my yeast strain left, not an activator (100 billion)...The owner told me he'd give it to me half price since it was a year old! lol...what a joke, somebody just lost my business.

It's a shame that Wyeast isn't more forthcoming about best practices (and therefore, shopkeeps like yours would be more educated).

To be fair, it is possible to ferment with just one pack, but it will take longer, the pack has to be fairly fresh, and you probably have to ferment warmer (at least at first, like wyeast recommends). So I don't think anyone is "lying" - except for maybe if someone says there's no difference in quality.

 

[Delaney]

Exactly...and I was just telling the guy that it would affect quality to pitch at 6 million yeast/ml(which one package delivers), as well as the fact that starting it at a higher temp affects the flavour.

He got pissed and wouldn't listen to what I was saying...All I was suggesting was that he take a look at this: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_lagerbrewing.cfm...which explains that starting it at a lower temp also produces better quality lager...he was an old man and didn't want to listen to what a young guy had to say is all.


So for now I leave it at 70-75F until things get going, then drop the temp down?
Add dry yeast if that doesn't work?

or should I add dry yeast ASAP?

 

[Yooper]

Ok so I cannot buy more of the yeast strain I'd been using anytime soon...Should I give this more time and raise temps a bit, or keep it cool and use a dry lager yeast?

How long ago did you pitch? If it's been more than 72 hours, you should consider raising the temperatures a bit if there has not been any activity. If you're under 72 hours, keep it at 50 degrees and wait it out.

 

[Delaney]

How long ago did you pitch? If it's been more than 72 hours, you should consider raising the temperatures a bit if there has not been any activity. If you're under 72 hours, keep it at 50 degrees and wait it out.

It's now at 81 hours with no sign of yeast activity...last SG was taken at 72 hours, with no fermentation detected....

at about the 68 hour mark I removed the lager from my fridge, it's in my wine cellar which will bring the wort temp to 73-75F...I intend to leave it there for a while...until something happens

Would I achieve better results to wait it out and allow the WYEAST yeast time to take hold, or just pitch dry lager yeast at this point?

 

[bottlebomber]

The dry yeast would probably be great, id imagine lager yeasts have a pretty clean profile so its not like your hoping for some particular yeast profile... just get that baby fermenting

 

[Delaney]

yeah I think I'll take another reading at 92 hours (when the brew store opens)and if things haven't kicked into gear by then Ill throw in a few packs of dry yeast

 

[Delaney]

1.052 is the SG now from 1.053/1/1.054 12 hours ago....It might be fermenting just very slowly.

The beer store is CLOSED today! Somebody crashed a vehicle into the store next door, so there's police tape surrounding the whole area...

I guess I'll have to wait another day...bringing it to 124 hours tomorrow...or drive 3 hours through traffic...just my luck