Liquid CO2?

[freisste]

PRECISELY.
It conjures more liquid co2 using my patented egg-aluminum mixture.
Seriously though - it's basically a slushy maker with different ingredients, lol the co2 application is precisely the same.
Also, the tubing would be rather short - how fast would it turn to gas? I only need it in liquid state for just about half a second.

Sounds like a fun physics experiment, but I would guess it is in the liquid state for roughly zero seconds. No time. If it is at atmospheric pressure, it is NOT liquid. There may be a small fraction of a second while the liquid is still within a pressurized area of the gas stream leaving a nozzle, but again, it would be an extremely short period of time. Sorry if I am crushing a dream. As was mentioned earlier, you could try liquid nitrogen. It can exist at atmospheric pressure as long as it is cold, which can be a few minutes in a jar (although it is boiling that whole time).

 

[BetterSense]

Liquid CO2 does not exist at standard pressure

Not true. Although I also have experienced the dry-ice phenomena mentioned in this thread, it's my understanding that breweries and big users of CO2 take delivery not in pressurized bottles, but as liquid CO2, very similar to the way liquid nitrogen is delivered. It may be under a small amount of pressure; I'm not sure. And then, since they use the CO2 quickly, they actually have to have heaters to keep dry ice from forming.

 

[Nonyaz]

Sounds like a fun physics experiment, but I would guess it is in the liquid state for roughly zero seconds. No time. If it is at atmospheric pressure, it is NOT liquid. There may be a small fraction of a second while the liquid is still within a pressurized area of the gas stream leaving a nozzle, but again, it would be an extremely short period of time. Sorry if I am crushing a dream. As was mentioned earlier, you could try liquid nitrogen. It can exist at atmospheric pressure as long as it is cold, which can be a few minutes in a jar (although it is boiling that whole time).

I did fail my thermodynamics course, but that aside, if the goal is to make said ingredients cold, and assuming the liquid co2 does all its energy absorption at the point of pressure change, as long as you had the output nozzle inside your mixing container, you'd surely make it colder. Likely have a huge ice clump around the outlet in short order, but stuff will more or less be colder than when you started

 

[Thanat0s]

I did fail my thermodynamics course, but that aside, if the goal is to make said ingredients cold, and assuming the liquid co2 does all its energy absorption at the point of pressure change, as long as you had the output nozzle inside your mixing container, you'd surely make it colder. Likely have a huge ice clump around the outlet in short order, but stuff will more or less be colder than when you started

Wooo! Ice clumps aren't a problem (I can easily take care of them), and yes, the energy absorption should account for that.
Now to build the mixing container... hmm

 

[freisste]

I did fail my thermodynamics course, but that aside, if the goal is to make said ingredients cold, and assuming the liquid co2 does all its energy absorption at the point of pressure change, as long as you had the output nozzle inside your mixing container, you'd surely make it colder. Likely have a huge ice clump around the outlet in short order, but stuff will more or less be colder than when you started

It will absolutely make things colder. Maybe I misunderstood what OP was trying to do. Pressurized CO2, which is a combination of liquid and gas, is likely at room temperature. When the pressure is released, the temperature drops very rapidly. If all you are trying to do is make something cold, this can be accomplished by releasing the pressure.

If you are looking for liquid CO2 at atmospheric pressure, go to your local unicorn farm. Santa Clause feeds unicorns and the Easter Bunny liquid CO2 and cheese from the moon.

 

[freisste]

Not true. Although I also have experienced the dry-ice phenomena mentioned in this thread, it's my understanding that breweries and big users of CO2 take delivery not in pressurized bottles, but as liquid CO2, very similar to the way liquid nitrogen is delivered. It may be under a small amount of pressure; I'm not sure. And then, since they use the CO2 quickly, they actually have to have heaters to keep dry ice from forming.

It is true. Your understanding is incorrect.

 

[Nonyaz]

Wooo! Ice clumps aren't a problem (I can easily take care of them), and yes, the energy absorption should account for that.
Now to build the mixing container... hmm

Oh dear god, don't do anything based upon anything I say!

To the point about liquid co2 at standard pressure, based upon this chart I would say true: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...pressure-temperature_phase_diagram.svg&page=1

No liquid co2 under 75psi, ever.

 

[freisste]

Wooo! Ice clumps aren't a problem (I can easily take care of them), and yes, the energy absorption should account for that.
Now to build the mixing container... hmm

All you want to do is make things cold? There are a million and six ways to do that! I thought you actually needed CO2 in a LIQUID state! You CAN cool things with pressurized CO2, you just can't have CO2 liquid at atmospheric pressure. Sorry if I caused confusion.

I'd still love to know what the hell you're doing...

 

[Nonyaz]

All you want to do is make things cold? There are a million and six ways to do that! I thought you actually needed CO2 in a LIQUID state! You CAN cool things with pressurized CO2, you just can't have CO2 liquid at atmospheric pressure. Sorry if I caused confusion.

I'd still love to know what the hell you're doing...

Maybe he thinks it will carbonate it?

 

[freisste]

To the point about liquid co2 at standard pressure, based upon this chart I would say true: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Carbon_dioxide_pressure-temperature_phase_diagram.svg&page=1

No liquid co2 under 75psi, ever.

Thank you.

 

[Thanat0s]

Maybe he thinks it will carbonate it?

Not just think - I've read up on stuff like this done before.
They used LIQUID CO2 to do it, in a similar fashion - spraying liquid CO2 at ice cream mixture, in their case. I'm not doing it with ice cream but identical application.
How did they do it, then? The process I described is what they used - liquid CO2 pumped at another liquid into a chamber.

 

[Nonyaz]

Not just think - I've read up on stuff like this done before.
They used LIQUID CO2 to do it, in a similar fashion - spraying liquid CO2 at ice cream mixture, in their case. I'm not doing it with ice cream but identical application.
How did they do it, then? The process I described is what they used - liquid CO2 pumped at another liquid into a chamber.

I'm not saying it won't, seems dubious to me but then again I'm in school for electrical engineering not chemical

Speaking of, time to hit the sack, I'd wait till' morning for more knowledgeable people to chime in, good luck to you!

 

[Thanat0s]

I'm not saying it won't, seems dubious to me but then again I'm in school for electrical engineering not chemical

Speaking of, time to hit the sack, I'd wait for morning for more knowledgeable people to chime in, good luck to you!

Thank you for your help!
Have a good night.

 

[freisste]

Not just think - I've read up on stuff like this done before.
They used LIQUID CO2 to do it, in a similar fashion - spraying liquid CO2 at ice cream mixture, in their case. I'm not doing it with ice cream but identical application.
How did they do it, then? The process I described is what they used - liquid CO2 pumped at another liquid into a chamber.

Get a tank, fill it with CO2, and position it near the stream of your other liquid (not ice cream or slushy).

Start a drip of your other liquid and open the valve on the CO2 tank. It will come out VERY cold and likely freeze your other liquid. (You would likely be better off angling the CO2 tank to blow out gas instead of liquid. Not because it would work much better, but because it would use your CO2 much more economically.)

I think it will work, I'M JUST SAYING IT WILL NOT BE LIQUID CO2!

 

[BetterSense]

It is true. Your understanding is incorrect.

http://www.nuco2.com/products/xactco2.html

So this company is a scam?

 

[Dolomieu]

http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/35663

 

[Thanat0s]

Get a tank, fill it with CO2, and position it near the stream of your other liquid (not ice cream or slushy).

Start a drip of your other liquid and open the valve on the CO2 tank. It will come out VERY cold and likely freeze your other liquid. (You would likely be better off angling the CO2 tank to blow out gas instead of liquid. Not because it would work much better, but because it would use your CO2 much more economically.)

I think it will work, I'M JUST SAYING IT WILL NOT BE LIQUID CO2!

This is awesome. What do you mean by a "drip"? Will this process take a while?

 

[squeekybobo]

Reading this makes me want to go watch Breaking Bad...

 

[Thanat0s]

http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/35663

Yeah!!!

 

[Thanat0s]

Reading this makes me want to go watch Breaking Bad...

Do it. I love that show.

 

[Dolomieu]

Op you should be looking at industry journals or something a little more substantial than a forum. Not that the people here arent well imformed, they are. BUT if this is something you are trying to design to profit from, maybe do your own work.

 

[freisste]

http://www.nuco2.com/products/xactco2.html

So this company is a scam?

What? No, they don't appear to be a scam. They appear to be a legit company and they have CO2 tanks. What is your point?

 

[Thanat0s]

Op you should be looking at industry journals or something a little more substantial than a forum. Not that the people hear arent well imformed, they are. BUT if this is something you are trying to design to profit from, maybe do your own work.

Yeah, I was originally trying to just ask about liquid CO2. But then I found out about the huge amount of insight this forum has!
Gonna see if anyone has any insight into that posted MIT project link thing.

 

[Dolomieu]

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/people/e.muller/teaching/icecream

 

[LabRatBrewer]

Thanatos in Greek mythology is the personification of death. I'd not want to be the first to try his concoction.

 

[Thanat0s]

Thanatos in Greek mythology is the personification of death. I'd not want to be the first to try his concoction.

You're awesome for getting the name.
Dolomieu, that's awesome! I wonder if his process carbonates it like the MIT process.

 

[mattd2]

Why would it be complicated?
I'm envisioning:
O < co2
| < regulator/valve
>---O (mixing container)
| < regulator/valve
O < liquid

From what you have kind of drawn there it looks like you want to mix the co2 and liquid before the mixing container? If so I woul think that if the plan is to use the liquid CO2 to cool the liquid, what you have drawn there will not work. Firstly you state you have a regulator (this term would usually be applied to a pressure regulator in case like this), what you want is a metering valve to adjust the flow but to make sure you do not get a large pressure drop accross this and evaporate the liquid CO2 at this point you will need an oriface (read: small hole) at the point of injection - this was mentioed earlier.
Second you have the liquid coming into the mixing point, unless you can get the liquid up to the pressure of liquid CO2 at room temp (870ish PSI) all that will happen is you will push the liquid back with the CO2. I would think a venturi mixing could possibly work in this case.

Are you going forward with a prototype to develop into a comercial product or is this just some DIY hack you want to do.
If it is the first you really need to engage an engineer with experience in pressure equipment and food & beverage applications. When you do make sure you get them to sign a properly drafted non disclosure statement (for that you will probably also need to see a lawyer)
If it is the second, why they hell can't you just tell us what you are planning on doing so we can actually help

Lastly if you are trying to make a slushy machine with CO2, when apparently they already exist with N2 (I think you said they were available?) stop and think if making it out of CO2 makes actual sense - CO2 is more expensive to produce and harder to handle use.

 

[rajun50]

http://www.nuco2.com/products/xactco2.html

So this company is a scam?

That's liquid co2, yes. There is also liquid co2 in a 5lb co2 tank, and any other size co2 tank you see. The point is that it's only liquid co2 because it's in that pressurized tank. The vapor pressure of co2 at room temperature is over 800psi. You simply can't have liquid co2 at standard temperature and pressure. It will turn to gas immediately. I'm assuming you're thinking that the co2 tanks you use are filled with co2 gas, but that isn't the case. It's all liquid until the pressure drops (valve is opened), which causes the liquid to boil off into gas, which we use to carbonate our beer. That's also why you want to keep your co2 tank upright when connected to your regulator. If it were turned upside down, you'd end up with liquid co2 in your regulator, and then in your keg. Not good.

 

[Thanat0s]

From what you have kind of drawn there it looks like you want to mix the co2 and liquid before the mixing container? If so I woul think that if the plan is to use the liquid CO2 to cool the liquid, what you have drawn there will not work. Firstly you state you have a regulator (this term would usually be applied to a pressure regulator in case like this), what you want is a metering valve to adjust the flow but to make sure you do not get a large pressure drop accross this and evaporate the liquid CO2 at this point you will need an oriface (read: small hole) at the point of injection - this was mentioed earlier.
Second you have the liquid coming into the mixing point, unless you can get the liquid up to the pressure of liquid CO2 at room temp (870ish PSI) all that will happen is you will push the liquid back with the CO2. I would think a venturi mixing could possibly work in this case.

Are you going forward with a prototype to develop into a comercial product or is this just some DIY hack you want to do.
If it is the first you really need to engage an engineer with experience in pressure equipment and food & beverage applications. When you do make sure you get them to sign a properly drafted non disclosure statement (for that you will probably also need to see a lawyer)
If it is the second, why they hell can't you just tell us what you are planning on doing so we can actually help

Lastly if you are trying to make a slushy machine with CO2, when apparently they already exist with N2 (I think you said they were available?) stop and think if making it out of CO2 makes actual sense - CO2 is more expensive to produce and harder to handle use.

Well, I'm essentially going for some sort of carbonated sorbet. The MIT project that was posted has the same application - liquid CO2 being sprayed/mixed against the mixture to carbonate and freeze it.
How do I do it, then?

 

[freisste]

Well, I'm essentially going for some sort of carbonated sorbet. The MIT project that was posted has the same application - liquid CO2 being sprayed/mixed against the mixture to carbonate and freeze it.
How do I do it, then?

You may have just set a record for off-topic-edness.

Still not totally clear here, but you could mix liquid CO2 with liquid sorbet under high pressure. At these high pressures, the CO2 can be at equilibrium as a liquid. Then supercool the liquid to solidify the sorbet. At this point, the CO2 is dissolved in the liquid. As it melts, the CO2 would come out of equilibrium and make the sorbet appear to boil. I am not totally sure if it will work, but it is sound in theory. (I do know the same process is used with plastic and when heated to a softening point, the plastic bubbles up. Unfortunately, sorbet isn't particularly rigid and may be near its softening point at freezer temps. You may have to store it in especially cold freezers...like Dippin' Dots! Probably couldn't sell it in the supermarket, though, because it would likely soften on the way home.)

Good luck in your endeavors and be careful.