Let's Remember Some Beers (In Memoriam: Old Whales)

[stupac2]

I don't really buy into this, mainly because the effort that goes into creating a compelling fake bottle is not worth what your profit would be from selling the faked Vanilla Rye.

Putting aside Yellow Bus, which just looks like an unlabeled bottle of any pale Lost Abbey beer, nearly all of the other instances of noted fake bottles I can think of were laughably shabby attempts driven by stupidity and/or desperation: awful rewax jobs; beer inside is oxidized, flat and/or infected; "blueberry lambic" is teal-colored, etc.

"The only fakes we're aware of are the ones where they did a bad job."

Well, yes, that's sort of how it works. If you do even a passingly decent job, no one will know. Maybe someone will have their suspicions, and they might even voice them, but what can you do if you think you were conned? Unless someone's actually running a big operation with real value the FBI isn't going to get involved, and you'll basically never be able to prove anything.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

Consider what would go into making a fake Vanilla Rye:

Unused Vanilla Rye labels are not available for sale anywhere, as far as I know, are not easily faked using common office or household inkjet printers and are not easy to cleanly remove from the bottle without damaging. The faked VR would also need the printed "Bourbon County" caps. Of course, if they really wanted to someone could carefully remove the caps from other BCBS bottles from roughly the same vintage (the same ones were used for 2-3 years, I think) but this another expensive (opportunity cost of not selling that legit vintage BCBS bottle) and tedious step.

Alternatively, if we assume fakers are refilling their VR empties, how would they do this effectively (by making a convincing fake product) and profitably? So they...buy a sixtel of a different barrel-aged stout that bears something of a similarity to Vanilla Rye but is also fairly inexpensive and then use a beer gun to fill the bottle but in a very careful way so as to not spill stout onto the pale yellow label?

Could someone make convincing fake labels and bottle caps? Yes. Could someone buy or blend a convincing vanilla-infused Bourbon County Stout? Yes. But this stuff is not especially cheap and the market for Vanilla Rye is not lucrative or deep enough to warrant that kind of operation.

Highly recommend watching Sour Grapes on Netflix. Taking the counterfeit bottle/label game to new heights.

Yes. This.

The Rudy Kurinawan story is really fascinating and I also highly recommend watching the doc or reading any of the many articles about his sprawling counterfeit Burgundy operation.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

"The only fakes we're aware of are the ones where they did a bad job."

Well, yes, that's sort of how it works. If you do even a passingly decent job, no one will know. Maybe someone will have their suspicions, and they might even voice them, but what can you do if you think you were conned? Unless someone's actually running a big operation with real value the FBI isn't going to get involved, and you'll basically never be able to prove anything.

My reply was specific to Vanilla Rye, but beyond Yellow Bus and the many bad fakes that have bubbled up, yes, I'm sure some fake bottles exist but I don't think they are anywhere near as prevalent as in whiskey or fine wine. There aren't many bottles fetching the high prices worth going through the trouble.

Cantillon bottles are certainly worth being weary of, however. Thanks to the particularities of European breweriana collectors, unused Cantillon labels are relatively easy to track down, and wouldn't you know, the rare and valuable one-offs often don't have back labels. In that case, it's just a matter of getting the correct cork vintage of whichever year-round bottle best matches the valuable one.

Once the Bruocsella Brut and Magic Lambic labels appear on that label website I would certainly second-guess any bottles I see for sale.

 

[stakem1]

whelp....

there goes my 90’s era tomeghost fake bottle operation and all the profits ive been reeling in from making obscure inkjet labels, soaking them in toilet water for that sweet patina effect and stuffing moldy particle board corks into chipped lambic bottles

 

[stupac2]

My reply was specific to Vanilla Rye, but beyond Yellow Bus and the many bad fakes that have bubbled up, yes, I'm sure some fake bottles exist but I don't think they are anywhere near as prevalent as in whiskey or fine wine. There aren't many bottles fetching the high prices worth going through the trouble.

Cantillon bottles are certainly worth being weary of, however. Thanks to the particularities of European breweriana collectors, unused Cantillon labels are relatively easy to track down, and wouldn't you know, the rare and valuable one-offs often don't have back labels. In that case, it's just a matter of getting the correct cork vintage of whichever year-round bottle best matches the valuable one.

Once the Bruocsella Brut and Magic Lambic labels appear on that label website I would certainly second-guess any bottles I see for sale.

Well with Vanilla Rye all you need to do is recap a bottle you drank. Any homebrewer has the tools to do it, and if the receiver doesn't open it for years, well, lots of bottles turn sour eventually, right?

The fact that sloppy fakes of pretty much every kind of beer have been discovered makes me think non-sloppy fakes aren't as uncommon as most people want to think.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

Well with Vanilla Rye all you need to do is recap a bottle you drank. Any homebrewer has the tools to do it, and if the receiver doesn't open it for years, well, lots of bottles turn sour eventually, right?

The fact that sloppy fakes of pretty much every kind of beer have been discovered makes me think non-sloppy fakes aren't as uncommon as most people want to think.

I draw the opposite conclusion, that making a compelling fake is much harder than would-be fakers assume. If all you're doing is beer-gunning homebrew into empties your operation isn't going to last very long.

 

[KevSal]

careful guys, there might be another article from this thread. "old beer people talk about counterfeiting beer"

 

[CheapBeerBuzz]

All beers I would love to try...


I always wanted to tick Saison Lambic Pinot Noir.... Tried trading for it and always fell short.

Yeah, that is one of my top 3 whale whale "wants" and will be forever. If anyone knows of a bottle in existence, still, please let me know and I will do everything I can to share that with the finder. REWARD - $5,000 or so much beer...

 

[CheapBeerBuzz]

Side note, I wonder why they only ever did one batch of Depuration. Even the bottle log (https://russianriverbrewing.com/depuration-bottle-logs/?age-verified=18b5725e98) says it’s the only time they will ever make it.

Same as to why they never tried to bottle Compunction again. I remember reading that there was too much sediment or something the one time they tried so they never bothered again. Seems like that’s something they could learn to fix. I guess they stopped trying to do new things around 2011.

That isn't 100% correct. For Compunction, they have made it on multiple other occasions. They just didn't offer it via bottle. The times I have had it were usually at special events (Younger releases at the brewpub and Toronado SF Beer Week "Tion" nights. I even recall filling a small swingtop growler for a good friend and mailing it to him (Vinnie, please don't read this as I don't want another argument with you and Natalie)...

 

[CheapBeerBuzz]

That's the original batch of Guava Grove... I don't think it was very rare, I got it in some beer of the month club box. It also wasn't very good.

Ha, just had my last bottle in the middle of July a couple months ago:

It wasn't horrible, but it was way way way overcarbed still to this day.

 

[Gonzoillini1]

That isn't 100% correct. For Compunction, they have made it on multiple other occasions. They just didn't offer it via bottle. The times I have had it were usually at special events (Younger releases at the brewpub and Toronado SF Beer Week "Tion" nights. I even recall filling a small swingtop growler for a good friend and mailing it to him (Vinnie, please don't read this as I don't want another argument with you and Natalie)...

I had a couple of pours of Compunction at one of the earlier Dark Lord Days (2009 / 2010ish), and even at that time no one really knew what it was / why it was special.

 

[CheapBeerBuzz]

https://punchdrink.com/articles/in-memoriam-great-rare-beer-whales-of-yore/

yeahnatenelson you're famous. Saw this posted in a Facebook beer group this afternoon.

now days its for Instagram posts

This article was very good but it fails to mention the true history about the HOTD Dave. Really basic history, it was made for the Toronado annual Barleywine Festival and won back in 1994. It probably didn't hurt that the beer was named after the owner of the Toronado, "Dave" Keene. The barrel head from the barrel that was used to age Dave still hangs on the wall in the front room of the Toronado, check it out if you happen to be visiting. Maybe you guys can lick the back of the barrel head for the tick...

 

[stakem1]

Ha, just had my last bottle in the middle of July a couple months ago:

It wasn't horrible, but it was way way way overcarbed still to this day.

I still got one of these. It was the first batch, unintentionally but super awesome sour version that they couldnt make the same way again and was poop thereafter.

Man, I got some ******* awesome CCB stories to tell from 7-8 years ago. If I have time I will post later or tomorrow just for the entertainment value

 

[Thorpe]

I still got one of these. It was the first batch, unintentionally but super awesome sour version that they couldnt make the same way again and was poop thereafter.

This is so true.

 

[stupac2]

I draw the opposite conclusion, that making a compelling fake is much harder than would-be fakers assume. If all you're doing is beer-gunning homebrew into empties your operation isn't going to last very long.

Well you don't replace it with homebrew, that **** would be obvious. You replace it with same-year BCBS and a pinch of vanilla extract or whatever.

And I don't think the idea is to make this into a business or whatever, it's functionally impossible to keep a fraud going indefinitely. All I'm saying is that the ingredients for fraud are all there:

1) Relatively large amounts of money
2) Difficult to detect
3) Not terrible difficult to pull off
4) Next to no accountability

How many other bottles did the JCN faker send out? The green Blabaer guy? Maybe they're incompetent, or maybe they succeeded a few times and got lazy. None of us can know. I just know there are a lot of profiteering ******** in the beer world, some of them are relatively smart, and none of this **** would be hard to do if you were a profiteering *******. Caveat emptor.

 

[CheapBeerBuzz]

How many other bottles did the JCN faker send out? The green Blabaer guy? Maybe they're incompetent, or maybe they succeeded a few times and got lazy. None of us can know. I just know there are a lot of profiteering ******** in the beer world, some of them are relatively smart, and none of this **** would be hard to do if you were a profiteering *******. Caveat emptor.

Being at the center of the JCN fiasco, I can tell you I did everything in my power to help Jean track the ****** down and out him. And no, I will not rehash that wound for the TB masses here.

My hope is that breweries take the necessary precautions to protect from fraud for the beers that we know will be rare and of value (over whatever they charge at retail). stupac2 and others here, how about focusing on how to make beers harder to counterfeit...not posting a "how to" guide on how to rip off us beer geeks?

 

[stupac2]

Being at the center of the JCN fiasco, I can tell you I did everything in my power to help Jean track the ****** down and out him. And no, I will not rehash that wound for the TB masses here.

Yeah, and it didn't work, right?

My hope is that breweries take the necessary precautions to protect from fraud for the beers that we know will be rare and of value (over whatever they charge at retail). stupac2 and others here, how about focusing on how to make beers harder to counterfeit...not posting a "how to" guide on how to rip off us beer geeks?

This stuff has all been hashed over for years, and nothing we're talking about is particularly hard to find out anyway. The better option, especially given that fraud is pretty well known in literally ever market where it's possible, is to just stay out of that game, or only get bottles of known provenance from reputable people. (And, of course, even then you can get your ass bit, see that whole wine fiasco mentioned above.)

What do you want brewers to do, microchip their dregs? These guys all source their materials from somewhere, the images are printed to normal resolutions, etc. Ultimately, there's nothing you can really do about it, since a determined/smart forger can copy any detail to any desired level of accuracy. You just have to hope that there aren't that many of them out there, that the market is too small and the profits too meager. I don't find that particularly comforting, but then again, I don't have the coin to be playing this game anyway, ymmv.

 

[CheapBeerBuzz]

What do you want brewers to do, microchip their dregs?

Sure, essentially. Maybe a tax strip or similar in a wax cap that is specific to a brewery/winery. And when that strip is torn, it acts as a safety seal. The bottle is fake or tampered with if it isn’t present and intact upon consumption. It wouldn’t protect us from vintage forgeries but it would help protect from future frauds.

 

[stupac2]

Sure, essentially. Maybe a tax strip or similar in a wax cap that is specific to a brewery/winery. And when that strip is torn, it acts as a safety seal. The bottle is fake or tampered with if it isn’t present and intact upon consumption. It wouldn’t protect us from vintage forgeries but it would help protect from future frauds.

Cantillon won't even use reasonable corks, but sure, these guys will start doing that.

Also, couldn't you just melt the wax and remove the thing intact? And that's leaving aside my whole "these guys have suppliers" thing, in general if someone uses as an input, anyone can get it unless they operate at sufficient scale (these guys don't). I don't think this has an easy solution.

 

[iong516]

My 2017 Rose de Gambrinus cap is plain black, is this a counterfeit?

 

[KevSal]

My 2017 Rose de Gambrinus cap is plain black, is this a counterfeit?

 

[tosh1]

My 2017 Rose de Gambrinus cap is plain black, is this a counterfeit?

You are over thinking things.

By you, I mean everyone else who is posting.

 

[Gonzoillini1]

You are over thinking things.

By you, I mean eveeyone else who is posting.

Fair, but I have met some really good friends through "rare" beer tastings where we all obsessed over what to bring way too much.

The folks in the corner talking about things that aren't beer related is usually where you want to be in my opinion.

 

[tosh1]

The folks in the corner talking about things that aren't beer related is usually where you want to be in my opinion.

Yes please. Beer nerds are ******* awful.

 

[Nivek43]

Yes please. Beer nerds are ******* awful.

Respeck beer

 

[tikk]

Fair, but I have met some really good friends through "rare" beer tastings where we all obsessed over what to bring way too much.

The folks in the corner talking about things that aren't beer related is usually where you want to be in my opinion.

This is the perfect statement. I hate talking about beer, beer, beer. It eventually becomes a dick swinging contest. I don't give a **** that you smelled the farts of JVR after he had a bottle of Don Q from the cellar. Learn more at lambic.info. I don't care about what you have aging in the back of a closet at your mother's house.

Beer is a vehicle to get to know people.

 

[tosh1]

This is the perfect statement. I hate talking about beer, beer, beer. It eventually becomes a dick swinging contest. I don't give a **** that you smelled the farts of JVR after he had a bottle of Don Q from the cellar. Learn more at lambic.info. I don't care about what you have aging in the back of a closet at your mother's house.

Beer is a vehicle to get to know people.

This ^^. I feel like not tagging blue_bleeder would be wrong.

 

[Gonzoillini1]

This is the perfect statement. I hate talking about beer, beer, beer. It eventually becomes a dick swinging contest. I don't give a **** that you smelled the farts of JVR after he had a bottle of Don Q from the cellar. Learn more at lambic.info. I don't care about what you have aging in the back of a closet at your mother's house.

Beer is a vehicle to get to know people.

Even if sometimes those people are MordorMongo lurchingbeast and TalkBeerJesus...

 

[DenverBeerDrinker]

This ^^. I feel like not tagging blue_bleeder would be wrong.

He dropped off the face of the earth

 

[mjohnson171]

The folks in the corner talking about things that aren't beer related is usually where you want to be in my opinion.

Unless it’s you and MordorMongo talking about Phish concerts.