Clonefan94
Senior Member
If all trolls were good ones, we probably wouldn't hate them as much.
I guess troll was maybe a bad word.
I like your descriptive "slink away" I'll refer to these types of posters from now on "Slinkies"
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If all trolls were good ones, we probably wouldn't hate them as much.
I guess troll was maybe a bad word.
I like your descriptive "slink away" I'll refer to these types of posters from now on "Slinkies"
One thing we never talk about is the enforcement, or lack thereof, of laws pertaining to homebrew. I have heard that the ABC in my area only has two agents to deal with thousands of licensed alcohol establishments. The last thing they want to do is deal with a bunch of homebrewers. They simply don't have the time. Now that is NOT permission to break the law of course but rather take a don't ask/ don't tell approach.
i would think that news of a homebrewer - or anyone, for that matter - selling alcohol illegally would attract the ABC's attention very quickly.
their job is usually inspecting law-abiding bars and beer shops, looking for outlyers (someone breaking the law). so you might need to check out dozens or hundreds of places before finding anything that needs enforcement.
a homebrewer selling out of his garage is a guaranteed bust. it's known illegal activity, instead of hoping to find something.
True but a licensee MUST let an ABC officer into their business....it's a part of their license. The only way an ABC officer can gain access into a private garage is with a search warrant or an undercover sting operation. I can't imagine them putting that much time/effort into something like that. Unless they were serving to minors...then they get what they deserve.
alternately, he asked a (naive) question and was met with OMG YOU CAN'T JUST DO THAT YOU NEED TO REEEEEAAAAAAAD EFFING REGULATIONS IT'S FEDERAL VS. MUTHA STATE VS. BADASS LOCAL BRACE YOURSELF RUN AWAY etc etc etc... and the OP decided to back away, slowly, from the crazy.
yes, i recognize that i was one of those screamers :rockin:
we're getting totally
here...if the homebewer is selling to the public, then he needs to let the public in somehow. inspector would just need to show up when the homebrewer has his/her door open. sees homebrewer being sold, proceeds to shut the place down.
as someone mentioned before, if the homebrewer sold small amounts to friends and family, and everyone kept their mouths shut, then the chances of getting caught are lowered. WARNING: it's still illegal.
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Maybe, but the way he worded his questions left me with the feeling that he was looking for "Yeah that works we all do it all the time around here" answer.
I guess that is true, but then I visit a lot of MMO forums so tend to expect more from my trolls. Then again gaming trolls have much easier topics and audience to work with.
Thats a dangerous attitude to propagate in the Homebrew community IMHO.
When federal authorities don't have the resources to enforce certain activities, and they think those activities are becoming a problem, they just out law it completely.
Would people still be allowed to have free beer without giving any form of a donation or entry fee? If the answer is no then its still considered a sale. If they were to not buy a shirt/mug would they still be allowed to have free beer? If the answer is no then its still considered a sale. To sell your beer you must be fully licensed and what requirements must be met will depend on your states laws. There's also a lot to go through before a facility is even legally allowed to be used for production.
As was said.... Do it right or don't do it at all. This is something the government does not mess around with. If they find out your bucking the system they will drop the hammer on you.
As was said.... Do it right or don't do it at all. This is something the government does not mess around with. If they find out your bucking the system they will drop the hammer on you.
ha! i hadn't considered this possibility: we done got trolled by the TTB!I am a mod on other forums, and occasionally you'll get agents posting leading questions seeing what kind of responses they get. Just a heads up.ipe:
I wish British Columbia wasn't so anal. The cost of licencing etc here is not worth it for anything smaller than brewpub/micro sized production. "Nano" here neans 500 hectoliter system brewing 7 days a week!
I am a mod on other forums, and occasionally you'll get agents posting leading questions seeing what kind of responses they get. Just a heads up.
Leo always bait and troll websites, the bigger the site the more slugs. It is sop. It is how they legit the fatass budget expenditures.
I don't know if it's dangerous or not.....it is certainly common sense. If you look at homebrew law throughout the country over the last decade it has become less and less restrictive across all states. IMHO the reason why is because people are realizing that homebrewers are by and large law abiding people. The laws they might be "breaking" are antiquated and don't serve a whole lot of purpose. I don't need to look any further than CA. For decades homebrewers have been donating homebrew to non profit events....it was technically illegal but was never enforced. That is until last year. So what happened? A bunch of homebrewers/homewinemakers got together and had the state law changed. It's now legal to donate homebrew to a charity event and they can sell it...heck you can even advertise that you are. So by the ABC enforcing a little known law it raised awareness and the law was changed. That seems like how most laws pertaining to homebrew are changed.
troy2000
Well-Known Member
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I'm pretty sure the original poster was serious - not trolling, not trying to entrap anyone, etc. But when someone starts exploring workarounds to bypass laws and regulations (as opposed to looking for the simplest and easiest ways to comply with them), he's stepping into dangerous territory.
I personally don't think he could manage to generate enough business to matter without bringing unwanted attention on himself... and it could interfere with future efforts to get legal.
I once had an ex-girfriend turn me in for contracting without a license; she claimed that accepting a lump sum to buy materials and hire a couple of guys to paint her house made me a contractor - even though I did it as a favor, charged her nothing, and actually spent more money than she gave me. And the state bought it...
Having that on my record complicated things when I did apply for a general contractor's license a few years later.
I personally don't think he could manage to generate enough business to matter without bringing unwanted attention on himself... and it could interfere with future efforts to get legal.
I once had an ex-girfriend turn me in for contracting without a license; she claimed that accepting a lump sum to buy materials and hire a couple of guys to paint her house made me a contractor - even though I did it as a favor, charged her nothing, and actually spent more money than she gave me. And the state bought it...
Having that on my record complicated things when I did apply for a general contractor's license a few years later.
I know the CA law intimately. The new law was well intended, and they're rectifying the situation. To be specific, our own club has been shut out of non-profit events for several years now, and the new law was an effort to rectify that situation.
It's not exactly like you portray it. Non-profits frequently have endowments, and thus attorneys, who the last few years have been informing them that selling homebrew was against the law. The new law meant to legalize that for legitimate 501c3s.
To avoid people like the OP setting up a 501c3 merely to get around the licensing laws, it excluded 501c3s formed specifically for beer/brewing purposes, and that inadvertently excluded the homebrew association, thus cancelling SCHF. I went to several of the meetings the CHA held on the topic prior to cancelling the event.
I've discussed this before on another thread of this nature..was it with you? It's important to make sure you represent what's going on with that law accurately, and in regards to if that attitude is dangerous? Well I guess that depends on if you value your freedom to homebrew. Because people trying to get around the laws, and propagating "don't ask permission, just keep it on the DL" attitudes, are jeapordizing that freedom. Do not underestimate the federal governments desire to be obeyed. Tommy Chong knows it first hand.
Maybe California works that way. Not in most states.
If you recall, homebrewing was JUST made legal in all 50 states, although some states restrict production to far less than the federal limit (60 gallons per household in some states), and in some states it's totally illegal to take your homebrew out of your "home" to your own cottage/boat/campsite.
Some counties in Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, KY, TN, etc are still totally "dry" counties.
Maybe where you live it's ok to ignore a law until it gets changed to suit you, but it's not something that is the reality for the rest of the Americans who don't live in such a liberal state that is homebrewing and brewing friendly.
By anybody condoning illegal behavior, they are breaking the rules of participation in our forum. Please remember our forum rules when formulating your response to queries and sharing your thoughts!
Jbay....not to change the subject but do you know anything about the current AB that will allow the CHA and AHA to host festivals again? Looking at the minutes one of my reservations is that only "members" can participate? Am I reading that right? I don't see how a homebrew club will be able to have a festival/event if they only invite their members. You are asking members to pay for a club membership, buy an event ticket, AND provide all the beer. At the non profit charity events that I have donated beer to I have at least received free entry into the event.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
Are you telling me that this community doesn't exist solely to "stick it to the man" and serve as the central hub for promoting law breaking? :rockin:
But seriously, there are some responses here that are questionable. Nothing on the internet is super secret and that means users here should consider what they write before it is permanently etched into this ether. If it is illegal don't promote it. If you don't agree with the law work to change it through the democratic process.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
If that is the case then I bet you could solve it with a "one-day membership."
The bill has passed it's first committee 18-0, next is appropriations, then, if I'm not mistaken it will go to the senate floor. Given the narrow focus on the bill and the widespread support it had on the Government Organization Committee, there seems to be optimism it will pass the appropriations (it's not going to cost anything and that's generally what they're concerned with) and will pass on the floor.
The fact they were asking for people to buy memberships in order to gain entrance what why it was deemed as "selling". The fact that they ask people to donate beer yet still charge them is more of a pr thing and every non-profit has to make those decisions. I'm on the executive board of a local school district non-profit, and we don't give free golf tourney entrances to our contributors unless their contribution exceeds a certain amount. Given the throngs that want to brew (we won the BRO contest last year...Santa Barbeerians!!!) and bring it to this festival, I doubt free entrances to the beer donors is ever going to be in the cards.
http://arc.asm.ca.gov/member/AD42/?p=article&id=257504
Press release on the new bill.
Edit: I just reread your post, and I'm not sure what exactly you're asking me, or how exactly to answer regarding homebrew clubs. Most homebrew clubs are not 501c3s so I don't think these laws really change anything for them. But you are certainly referring to an area of the law that's subject to interpretation, so if anyone online asked me what I thought of that I'd probably refer them to an attorney...maybe there's one on the club already?
Sorry....I am definetly not "condoning" illegal behavior. But I also realize that there were members homebrewing and homebrew clubs in AL, MS, and UT long before it was legalized. After all who is going to lobby for homebrewing if they don't actively participate in it? It just seems like homebrewing laws don't change unless someone gets in trouble or an event gets shut down. Remember what happened in Oregon a few years ago? The ultimate result was a much more favorable law for homebrewers. Maybe it is the nature of politics/lawmaking that so many times nothing happens until there is a "problem".... otherwise everything just stays status quo. I think that we can discuss the legalities in a manner consistent with the forum rules.
Jbay....I have done a little investigating and while it's not the norm there are quite a few 501c3 homebrew clubs (legal non-profits). If this law is passed someone could form a non profit called the Santa Barbara Homebrewers Assoc. and legally sell their beer 2x a year at their own festival. Of course all money raised would have to go back to the non-profit. In the case of a homebrewing club it could go towards brewing equipment and supplies. It will be very interesting to see how this bill goes forward and any changes that are made to it.
Yeah it should be interesting. But I know this is a "cleanup" bill, and in the past, both fed and state governments have been willing to be VERY specific, going so far as to name the charity associations they're clearing with the bill. But like you said, it will be interesting....
Yeah it should be interesting. But I know this is a "cleanup" bill, and in the past, both fed and state governments have been willing to be VERY specific, going so far as to name the charity associations they're clearing with the bill. But like you said, it will be interesting....
Well I hope the AHA and CHA are not allowed special rights that other non profit brewing groups don't enjoy. Don't get get me wrong...there is nothing more that I want to see than the return of the SCHF and the NHC to San Diego. However it just isn't fair that some groups are allowed a privilege and other similar groups are not.
That's how the system works I guess. Influence matters. Different topic though. My take is that Non-profits are corporations, not people, so I'm not too concerned about their civil rights. The NFL, the NHL, and the PGA are all non-profits too, they carved out niches in the legal/tax code specifically for these organizations. Until government is immune to all corporate influence, there will be corporate inequalities. It's part and parcel with the fact that corporations measure themselves by wealth, and wealth is what corrupts governments.
(poof! I think I just blew my own mind) LOL...
