Legal?

[Jayhem]

If it harms no one but avoids being taxed by big Fed...it must be illegal!

 

[thadius856]

It's a form of bartering at that point. The ingredients are the item of value. You're not paying the money you would generally pay for those ingredients, which gives them an inherent value, in exchange you're giving him beer.

He gives you grain, you give him nothing.

You make beer with the grain.

You give him the grain back in beer form, he gives you nothing.

Gifting back and forth, maybe. But bartering? That's a stretch. To qualify as barter, both parties have to benefit in some way.

I could understand it if maybe he bought you two 50# sacks of 2-row, you made him 10 gallons of a blonde, and kept the grain.

 

[thadius856]

If it harms no one but avoids being taxed by big Fed...it must be illegal!

It's as much a public safety issue as it is a taxation issue.

I, for one, am glad that the government prevents dirty old man Joe's bathtub gin from landing on my grocery store shelf.

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

Its called a "gift" for a reason. If he decides to pay you for you troubles thats not a problem...

Its the way you word it that makes people (govt) antsy. Theres always a loophole

 

[tennesseean_87]

He gives you grain, you give him nothing.
You make beer with the grain.
You give him the grain back in beer form, he gives you nothing.
Gifting back and forth, maybe. But bartering? That's a stretch. To qualify as barter, both parties have to benefit in some way.
I could understand it if maybe he bought you two 50# sacks of 2-row, you made him 10 gallons of a blonde, and kept the grain.

I could definitely be wrong, but I don't see how this is bartering. You're donating your time and effort to brew for him. You're getting nothing back. He bought the ingredients for his beer. Nothing is yours. As mentioned, if he bought you more ingredients than you used, that would be bartering, but I don't see it here. You gain nothing in the transaction.

 

[brewkinger]

I could definitely be wrong, but I don't see how this is bartering. You're donating your time and effort to brew for him. You're getting nothing back. He bought the ingredients for his beer. Nothing is yours. As mentioned, if he bought you more ingredients than you used, that would be bartering, but I don't see it here. You gain nothing in the transaction.

One of the first few replies discussed the possibility of there being "additional" materials purchased for the OP.
That is my basis for saying it will be illegal in some eye of the law.

 

[Phunhog]

It's as much a public safety issue as it is a taxation issue.

I, for one, am glad that the government prevents dirty old man Joe's bathtub gin from landing on my grocery store shelf.

I fail to see how homebrew is a "public safety issue" It has been proven that no known pathogens can survive in beer. You might get awful beer but it won't make you physically sick.
Whenever the legal subject comes up I always ask...Does it pass the sniff test? The OP's buddy wants him to brew some beer and is willing to compensate him for his time and ingredients. He is willing to do it as a one time, special occasion deal. This is clearly not what the law is meant to enforce (unlicensed breweries) as evidenced by the complete lack of enforcement of these types of situations. Look at other "services" we occasionally provide others. I drive someone to the airport and they give me 40 bucks for gas. Is that illegal since I am not licensed by the state as a taxi/limo and thus can't legally take a paying fare? How about if someone hires me to build a fence for them on my day off. Is that illegal since I am not a licensed contractor? It could be if I am trying to make a living off of it but not just for helping a buddy out. Oh...here's the best one that we have all done. You buy beer on your way to your buddy's house. You buddy gives you a twenty and tells you keep the change. Technically you have just broken a myriad of alcohol laws including unlicensed sale of alcohol. So why do we care so much about a guy accepting a little bit of money for his time and ingredients for his homebrew?

 

[daksin]

Long story short, YES it will be illegal, NO you almost certainly won't get caught, and YES, people do this all the time. If you're not a dick and don't try to sell to retail outlets and advertise yourself as a real business, you'll be fine. The easiest way will be to not take any money directly. Get them to give you a gift of adequate value in return.

 

[norsk]

Just went to a wedding where I had brewed 30 gal of three different beers. Had several requests to brew batches of our IPA and Belgian Tripel by some of the people there. They offered some nice coin to provide them with the beer, and two of them are cops. Fortunately I don't need the money so I'm brewing them each 5 gal for free, for the fun of it. But if I was short of funds, it would be no problem whatsoever to be paid for ingredients and labor...

 

[JeepDiver]

Being in the legal field, I say you give him all the beer he wants. It is a great gift and thus legal. If he gives you a great gift of cash or whatever, that is his choice. When granny gave you a card with a $100 bill the government never bothered with it, not that they wouldn't if yet could.

You are not selling him beer at all. The other way around it if you feel guilty is that you gave him the beer but he paid for the ingredients.

But I like the free lap dance option.

Cheers

You must not be very good in your field. Most states it's illegal to give homebrew away. It is for personal and family consumption, a lot of states do make exceptions for contest and tastings. To give someone blanket advice that they can give away homebrew while saying you are in the legal field is just bad.

And Calif is one of the states where it is only for family consumption

 

[Yooper]

Can you expound on this one?

He bought the ingredients, you brewed it into beer, and returned the beer to him.

No money or item of value changed hands. What's the problem with this one?

In most states, the brewer made the homebrew and thus "owns" it. In some states, you can't even gift homebrew, or take it out of your home to your boat or to your campsite.

In my state, I can give away something like 20 gallons of homebrew per year. It used to be a 6 pack. In some states, it's only legal to remove homebrew from the brewer's home for competitions.

If someone bought ingredients, they can give them to a homebrewer for a gift, no problem. But the brewer usually can't gift back beer, unless the state law allows for the gifting of homebrew from a brewer's home.

It's important to check with your state laws. Most places that have a liquor license will not allow homebrew into it.

 

[MalFet]

Every time this topic comes up, I love all the people who think they can come up with a crafty way to make the transaction not technically a "sale". Pretty bottles, coincidental gifts, markup on ingredients...

This is not how our legal system works.

 

[mattd2]

Every time this topic comes up, I love all the people who think they can come up with a crafty way to make the transaction not technically a "sale". Pretty bottles, coincidental gifts, markup on ingredients...

This is not how our legal system works.

Yes, accept what you want to do is illegal but the likelihood of getting caught is minimal.
Exactly the same thought process as speeding in your car

 

[Phunhog]

You must not be very good in your field. Most states it's illegal to give homebrew away. It is for personal and family consumption, a lot of states do make exceptions for contest and tastings. To give someone blanket advice that they can give away homebrew while saying you are in the legal field is just bad.

And Calif is one of the states where it is only for family consumption

100% NOT TRUE!! In fact I am going to the Southern California Homebrewers Festival in a few weeks. Something like 500 beers being served.

 

[mattd2]

100% NOT TRUE!! In fact I am going to the Southern California Homebrewers Festival in a few weeks. Something like 500 beers being served.

Would that not be a tasting?

 

[reinstone]

Tell him he can't pay you, but he could buy you equipment to help you in the task. If you are like most home brewers, you probably have your eye on some upgrades or need new fermenting vessels or something.

That would be barter......thus taxable income, thus illegal

He can buy the ingredients and help you brew and then take the beer.

 

[Phunhog]

Would that not be a tasting?

It is a tasting. I was disputing the fact that it is for family/personal use only. So talk about legal loopholes.. The Southern California Homebrewers Festival is a perfect example. It features over 30 homebrew clubs serving over 500 beers and that's a conservative guess. The ticket price is 40 bucks. But wait....what you buy online is not a "ticket" but rather an annual membership to the California Homebrewers Assoc. The festival is "free" if you are a "member". Anyone can be a "member" with the caveat that "memberships" are not sold the day of the festival.

 

[jmadway]

In most states, the brewer made the homebrew and thus "owns" it. In some states, you can't even gift homebrew, or take it out of your home to your boat or to your campsite.

In my state, I can give away something like 20 gallons of homebrew per year. It used to be a 6 pack. In some states, it's only legal to remove homebrew from the brewer's home for competitions.

If someone bought ingredients, they can give them to a homebrewer for a gift, no problem. But the brewer usually can't gift back beer, unless the state law allows for the gifting of homebrew from a brewer's home.

It's important to check with your state laws. Most places that have a liquor license will not allow homebrew into it.

What I would like to know is how many of these scenarios that so many of these posts have hypothetically described have actually been prosecuted? What type of precedent is there for prosecuting homebrewers in scenarios like those described throughout this thread? Does anyone who has posted to this thread know of anyone who has run into legal troubles with their homebrew (in states where homebrewing is legal)?

 

[Beer_Eugenics]

Every time this topic comes up, I love all the people who think they can come up with a crafty way to make the transaction not technically a "sale". Pretty bottles, coincidental gifts, markup on ingredients...

This is not how our legal system works.

Every time this topic comes up I’m amazed at how many people actually believe the government will prosecute them for bartering small amounts of homebrew.

 

[MalFet]

Every time this topic comes up I’m amazed at how many people actually believe the government will prosecute them for bartering small amounts of homebrew.

Who said they will?

 

[mattd2]

It is a tasting. I was disputing the fact that it is for family/personal use only. So talk about legal loopholes.. The Southern California Homebrewers Festival is a perfect example. It features over 30 homebrew clubs serving over 500 beers and that's a conservative guess. The ticket price is 40 bucks. But wait....what you buy online is not a "ticket" but rather an annual membership to the California Homebrewers Assoc. The festival is "free" if you are a "member". Anyone can be a "member" with the caveat that "memberships" are not sold the day of the festival.

but that is what an exception is - it is for personal use except for...
Here is the California rules from the AHA website - http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/california

§ 23356.2. Beer; manufacture for personal or family use; exemption

No license or permit shall be required for the manufacture of beer for personal or family use, and not for sale, by a person over the age of 21 years. The aggregate amount of beer with respect to any household shall not exceed (a) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults in such household, or (b) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult in such household.

Any beer manufactured pursuant to this section may be removed from the premises where manufactured for use in competition at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions, including homemakers' contests, tastings, or judgings.

 

[Beer_Eugenics]

Who said they will?

I have read several of these threads with people replying that the ATF , ABC or local authorities are trolling the forum just waiting to pounce on a home brewer “selling” homebrew.

 

[MalFet]

I have read several of these threads with people replying that the ATF , ABC or local authorities are trolling the forum just waiting to pounce on a home brewer “selling” homebrew.

Oh, right..."several threads". Let me know if you find an example.

 

[Phunhog]

Oh, right..."several threads". Let me know if you find an example.

I don't know if I can find an example but I do find it hilarious that some people on this board really do think that this forum is monitored. Just read some of the first posts.
The laws are written the way they are so that someone can't run an unlicensed brewery and try to sell the beer on a commercial level. That is what the government is concerned about. They don't care, as evidenced by sheer lack of enforcement, if someone brews some beer for a friends wedding and is compensated in some way. In fact how is that any different than your friend paying you gas money to drive him to the airport? You are receiving compensation for something that you are not licensed to do i.e. transport fare paying passengers. Now lets stop and use a little common sense here..does anyone really believe that is what the law is concerned with? Of course not!

 

[mattd2]

I don't know if I can find an example but I do find it hilarious that some people on this board really do think that this forum is monitored. Just read some of the first posts.
The laws are written the way they are so that someone can't run an unlicensed brewery and try to sell the beer on a commercial level. That is what the government is concerned about. They don't care, as evidenced by sheer lack of enforcement, if someone brews some beer for a friends wedding and is compensated in some way. In fact how is that any different than your friend paying you gas money to drive him to the airport? You are receiving compensation for something that you are not licensed to do i.e. transport fare paying passengers. Now lets stop and use a little common sense here..does anyone really believe that is what the law is concerned with? Of course not!

But the OP's question was if it was illegal.
Theoritical answer = yes
Practical answer = it doesn't matter if it is a one time thing for a good friend and noone will nark on you

 

[xtian116]

I'm telling!

Haha!
I was saddened to hear that I can only brew 200 gallons.
Next you're going to tell me they are tracking my grain purchases! (I'm screwed!)

 

[brewkinger]

I have read several of these threads with people replying that the ATF , ABC or local authorities are trolling the forum just waiting to pounce on a home brewer “selling” homebrew.

I was one of the thread contributors that did mention, albeit in a humorous way, that perhaps a member of the ATF could be trolling the forum.
It was merely an attempt to convey the same message that has been posted in multiple threads along the way.

The main points which have been mentioned, are:
It is most likely not a wise decision or a legal one to accept any form of payment to brew the beer.

It is most def not a wise decision to post these intentions in a public forum.

And finally, if any of you naysayers think for one second that the gov-ment is not aware of this type of forum and occasionally checks us out to make sure we are following the rules, then you may be kidding yourself.
I have a friend that works at Quantico, does not brew beer, but it was him that told me about this forum and the wealth of information available.
He told me that after that Moonshiners show started airing that a ton of people started "brewing". His job description is Internet intelligence gathering.
I have seen, although not in a while, posts on here asking about corn mash, etc.....
Do you think that if I can find it online, that the people whose hobbit is to find stuff out on the Internet cannot access the same materials?

Just saying.

 

[brewkinger]

Hobby, stupid autocorrect!

 

[mamies]

Here is a pretty simple solution I think...

Why dont you assist them in brewing it. Part of the OP question was that his mate wanted beer brewed for the wedding. Let him brew it with you help then he is distributing it to family. I dont see any issues with this.

Remember I am not up to date with American law.

 

[jmcquesten]

What about if the wedding was also a tasting event? Maybe invite a certified bjcp judge? I'm sure that's probably illegal too. Usually, if it's fun, or provides enjoyment to anyone, and the government isn't getting money out of it, you can count on it being illegal.