Landlord issues.... Short Sale on apt.

[user 4295]

Are we talking about a condo that you're renting that she owns, but doesn't own the building it's in, or are we talking about an apartment in a building that she owns? If it's a condo then obviously the lease will not extend to the new owner because they are buying the condo unit you're in.

I'm only quoting myself because my post got lost and I don't believe the OP answered it. It's quite relevant to what is being discussed.

 

[dataz722]

I'm only quoting myself because my post got lost and I don't believe the OP answered it. It's quite relevant to what is being discussed.

It actually is irrelevant. No matter what the lease should extend unless specifically stated otherwise in the signed lease.

 

[mosquitocontrol]

Update time:
Saturday brought several texts and want-to be appointments, all with successively less notice. Apparently our request for 24-hours notice was interpreted as 45 minutes. When we held our ground and said no, it was only followed by texts trying to make us feel bad. Aw I'm sorry the people drove an hour to come look at our place... Except for the fact you told your tenants about it after the people were already driving here.

I emailed the landlord today. I proposed 1-2x per week showing for 2 hours. I also reiterated that we have no intention to move without compensation when it sells. Which as I read the law, is the only thing we seem to have protecting us.With this in mind I also asked that she review the listing. I am almost positive it has no mention of tenants, primarily because the last line says MOVE IN READY and she already admitted there was no requirement of appropriate notice time.

I want to make it clear I'm not trying to make this difficult. I just want some respect. I don't intend to leave the place a mess or walk around naked. I want LESS people coming through so this will end sooner and not drive me crazy for 9 more months. I don't want to pull shenanigans and drag this through court. I just want a solution where randoms don't walk in unexpected and I don't get texts from my landlord all week making me want to throw my phone across the room because of how inconsiderate she is.

I've read the lease and it says we need to let them in to do showings. With no mention of reasonable notice time frame. Actually \y it hints that they can come in whenever they want as long as they leave a note in an obvious place. So no help on that front. Colorado law is the same, with the only clear thing being the rollover of the lease to the new owner.

I like to leave when its shown because its a 1bdrm condo and the majority of it is in one room. There's no where to go and I certainly couldn't get anything accomplished while I was there. Sure I could sit on the couch for two hours while randoms walk in and poke through my stuff awkwardly. But I'm almost sure its easier to sell when they don't feel like they're being watched and timed by a tenant.

Also, I do read every single line of the lease before its signed. But in 10 years of renting it hasn't mattered. I've never once been able to get a landlord to modify anything. They always work off some boilerplate lease they refuse to change even though they've probably never read it themselves. I'd love to know your secret of actually getting anything removed.

Its an individually owned condo in a multi-unit building. Not sure how that affects it too much. I would buy it, except for the fact that I just moved across country three months ago, have been unemployed for two years, and have six figures of student loan debt. Even still, the price is so low it would be less then the rent we pay its just not worth the risk right now.

 

[user 4295]

Does the lease allow for the owner to sell it to someone who is buying it with the intention of moving into the unit, or is the new owner wanting to buy it so they can continue to rent it to you?

 

[tdogg]

Im not sure about your states rules, but I doubt the landlord is acting within the law on this one. Try contacting your state attorney generals office for guidance. They helped me alot when i had some similar landlord issues.

 

[dataz722]

Does the lease allow for the owner to sell it to someone who is buying it with the intention of moving into the unit, or is the new owner wanting to buy it so they can continue to rent it to you?

By law they have to at least let him finish the lease.

Im not sure about your states rules, but I doubt the landlord is acting within the law on this one. Try contacting your state attorney generals office for guidance. They helped me alot when i had some similar landlord issues.

I thought the same thing but actually looked up the laws there and unfortunately to only thing that is possibly breaking any law is listing it as "move in ready" but really that is probably just a mistake and not illegal. It does need to be corrected though.

 

[mosquitocontrol]

Does the lease allow for the owner to sell it to someone who is buying it with the intention of moving into the unit, or is the new owner wanting to buy it so they can continue to rent it to you?

This is what I'm concerned about because she has not been clear. Obviously she does not have her crap together. In the email where she notified us she was selling she said:

"the worst/best case scenario however you look at it if it sells before your lease we will break the lease with no penalty and I will try to help you guys get a new place. Im sure there are a few better deals out there for you guys as well. So it could be a good thing all around? "

From the beginning she assumes we will just play nice and move out when the time comes. With no penalty! How generous of her. Not to mention I highly doubt she is going to help with any forms of an apartment search let alone a moving day for previous tenants. That coupled with the move in ready statement on the listing is just plain wrong. I wanted time to look into the lease and laws before contradicting her dream plan.

I am just holding out hope that someone will buy it as an investment property since it is short sale. Then they will magically swoop in and repair all the issues with the unit. And in the end of all this I will get a landlord who is normal. Its nice to dream isn't it?

 

[user 4295]

A lease is a two way street. She is not entitled to "break the lease" any more than you are without consequences. No penalty to you for her breaking the lease? Now that's a laugh! She's a dope, get a lawyer!

 

[mosquitocontrol]

Any idea on how to interpret a subordination clause? My lease states

"This lease is subordinate to existing and future recorded mortgages."
Does that mean I'm back at square one and can be ordered to leave if the new owner wants to move in? Or does this clause just come into play if the bank forecloses?

Newest from the landlord is that someone is putting in an offer. On a short sale I realize this can mean forever. But when asked the landlord said they plan to move in if/when the offer goes through. So I need to figure this crap out soon.

I really don't have money for a lawyer and all free services I've seen are only for low income. I think I've finally dug up all applicable laws, its just a matter of interpreting them.

I'm debating causing a stink with repairs needed in the unit. I doubt she has the funds to put anymore money in the unit and maybe with non-repairs I could make a claim to leave on my terms. One of the five windows in the unit is inoperable and the other four do not move with ease. The lock on the sliding door (3rd floor patio) does not work and instead uses one of those adjustable security bars. But at this point Although I believe these issues if not fixed can get me out due to the Warranty of Habitability Act, I'm afraid I'm just nitpicking trying to find anything I can so I can leave on my terms if it gets out of hand.

I haven't found anything requiring the landlord to disclose that the unit was on the market when the lease was signed so I guess that gets me no where other than showing she is shady.

 

[user 4295]

"This lease is subordinate to existing and future recorded mortgages."

I'm certainly not an attorney, but that reads to me that any lease on the property will be lower in position to existing mortgages(foreclosure, bankruptcy), and future recorded mortgages (new mortgage recorded at time of closing with new owner). There still has to be some kind of protection in your state that would allow you sufficient time to find another place after the sale is closed.

What it sounds like she's saying is that she'd be willing to let you out of the lease early, with no penalty, as soon as you find a place and not wait until the sale. If so, that might be a better deal for you than the inconvenience of having people walking through your home.

 

[TheMan]

Maybe you have done this already, but why not just ask her plain and simple? Just tell her you would like to find someplace else to live and if you can get out of your current lease without penalty then you'll be out of her hair asap. Maybe she would like this.

 

[zman]

You could move to 5 points and surrounding areas and get a house for what you pay for a 1 bdrm downtown. SWMBO and I rent a 3 bed town home with a small basement front porch and a back yard for less than you pay and we are 8 minutes from downtown via the Light Rail. Sure living in Lodo is nice in that you are really close to Falling Rock but I like being able to brew on my front porch or back yard. In the summer we grow our veggies and my hops and even had a block party last summer.

 

[JRems]

No one mentioned it yet but why not leave out some homebrew stuff. Some flasks measuring equipment, a copper chiller, stainless pots. They'll probably think your cooking up some meth and high tail it out of there.

 

[weirdboy]

You have to look at the lease and local laws. Nobody here can armchair quarterback without that information.

I am a landlord so I am somewhat familiar with these laws, at least in my state.

Usually there is a boilerplate clause in every lease that allows entry with prior notice, either 24 or 48 hours, I think, depending upon local laws. It is specifically for stuff like allowing prospective buyers to view the property, doing inspections, performing repairs, etc.

There is usually no requirement that you have to leave during that time, that I am aware of. That doesn't mean it's not a distraction and nuisance and all that, but read the lease agreement to double check.

If they sell the property, the new owners can stipulate that you move out when ownership changes, particularly in the case of a FHA loan it is basically a federal requirement that the new owners have to live there. If it is a multi-unit property, the new owners can choose any unit to kick someone out of when they move in.

Maybe you have done this already, but why not just ask her plain and simple? Just tell her you would like to find someplace else to live and if you can get out of your current lease without penalty then you'll be out of her hair asap. Maybe she would like this.

If she is rational (and maybe she isn't, judging from the sound of things) she would never agree to this. With a renter, she at least gets SOME money to help offset the mortgage. With an empty unit it is only marginally easier to sell, and costing her $1400 a month for the privilege when she's already apparently under water.

 

[blizzard]

If she is rational (and maybe she isn't, judging from the sound of things) she would never agree to this. With a renter, she at least gets SOME money to help offset the mortgage. With an empty unit it is only marginally easier to sell, and costing her $1400 a month for the privilege when she's already apparently under water.

We have already established that she isn't good with money. :cross:

Here are some legal assistance pages, if you haven't looked here.
http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/53/dpwfp/Legal-Assistance-Programs/

You might also get in touch with the local housing agency.
http://www.hud.gov/offices/hsg/sfh/hcc/hcs.cfm?&webListAction=search&searchstate=CO

Also, if SWMBO is employed, she may have access to an Employee Assistance Program, where you can get some legal advice for free.

Finally, the CO Bar has some helpful info:
http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/1723/subID/6239/Landlord-Tenant-Rights,-and-Obligations-of-Tenants/

Edit: From the CO Bar page it looks like you should get at least 3 months notice if you have a 1 yr lease. Also, they have a good section on your security deposit. Take a look.

 

[blizzard]

Also, how did we get to page five without any mention of the Castle Doctrine? You guys are slipping.

 

[mattd2]

...If she is rational (and maybe she isn't, judging from the sound of things) she would never agree to this. With a renter, she at least gets SOME money to help offset the mortgage. With an empty unit it is only marginally easier to sell, and costing her $1400 a month for the privilege when she's already apparently under water.

And with a renter in there already she has the added value of being able to sell it to a potential landlord with a "guaranteed" income for X amount of time.

Really it sounds like she is not taking you seriously as you have been more than reasonable on your part - keeping the place clean, letting them in at short notice.
I see that you have 2 choices; either put up with her **** and hope she sells quick, or kick up a fuss and stand behind your request for some common courtesy - if the law sates 24 hours and she tries to come in after 45 minutes notice tell her politely that you have already told her that she needs to give you at least 24 hours notice and if she does not leave you will call the police to remove her/the agent but she is welcome to return tomorrow at a specific time.
On her part it is not that hard to tell prospective buyers that she can meet them tomorrow at X o'clock.

 

[copyright1997]

OP, you could always try spraying this in the place just before you walk out the door....Liquid A__.

When I was a teenager, a guy up the street (married with kids) would use this (or something like this) occasionally when he went to a bank and they had a long line. Funny how that line disappeared quickly. My friends and I (teenage boys) thought it was just about the funniest thing in the world.

 

[mattd2]

Yeah my first thoughts when reading this was the whole just walk round nude, etc. and that'll give her what she deserves. But after reading more I commend you on being the bigger person and trying to make this work for everybody. I just feel sorry for you that she hasn't done the same.
Maybe give her a link to this thread and let her know that you are doing way more than most would be in the same situation

 

[dataz722]

Any idea on how to interpret a subordination clause? My lease states

"This lease is subordinate to existing and future recorded mortgages."
Does that mean I'm back at square one and can be ordered to leave if the new owner wants to move in? Or does this clause just come into play if the bank forecloses?

I am 99% positive that only applies to liens and forclosures. A short sale is still technically a sale and the bank never takes ownership of the property.

I'm debating causing a stink with repairs needed in the unit. I doubt she has the funds to put anymore money in the unit and maybe with non-repairs I could make a claim to leave on my terms. One of the five windows in the unit is inoperable and the other four do not move with ease. The lock on the sliding door (3rd floor patio) does not work and instead uses one of those adjustable security bars. But at this point Although I believe these issues if not fixed can get me out due to the Warranty of Habitability Act, I'm afraid I'm just nitpicking trying to find anything I can so I can leave on my terms if it gets out of hand.

I haven't found anything requiring the landlord to disclose that the unit was on the market when the lease was signed so I guess that gets me no where other than showing she is shady.

Honestly, what good would that do you? Either way you would still be out a place to live.

No one mentioned it yet but why not leave out some homebrew stuff. Some flasks measuring equipment, a copper chiller, stainless pots. They'll probably think your cooking up some meth and high tail it out of there.

Why? So a realtor could do what he is legally responsible to do and report it? Just to get the door kicked in by the pop and have his stuff at least probably temporarily seized and a huge head ache getting it all straightened out.

You have to look at the lease and local laws. Nobody here can armchair quarterback without that information.

I am a landlord so I am somewhat familiar with these laws, at least in my state.

My family has had numerous rental properties including seasonal, weekly, and annual lease properties. I have helped them and been at least somewhat involved with everything since I was about 12 years old. I am pretty familiar with it, at least in MD and DE. I have actually looked up the laws in Colorado and they are terrible from a tenants stance. I wish they were like this around here.

The law defaults to the fact that a landlord can enter without notice at any time to maintain or inspect the property. This also includes prospective buyers. On the other hand though, it does state that if a property is sold the new owners MUST keep that lease and all the existing terms of it until at least the time it expires. That is just the way the law defaults if the lease doesn’t specifically state otherwise. So what it really comes down to is exactly how it is listed in the lease, if at all.

If she is rational (and maybe she isn't, judging from the sound of things) she would never agree to this. With a renter, she at least gets SOME money to help offset the mortgage. With an empty unit it is only marginally easier to sell, and costing her $1400 a month for the privilege when she's already apparently under water.

If she is doing a short sale then she would probably just let the mortgage go unpaid until it sold so that probably isn’t an issue for her. Hell, it is probably already delinquent because most banks won’t consider a short sale until you are already behind on payments.

Also, how did we get to page five without any mention of the Castle Doctrine? You guys are slipping.

Because it doesn't even remotely apply here.

 

[dataz722]

Mosquito, is there anyway you could, if you wanted, post the actual lease? That will clear up a lot of guessing. I have dealt with quite a few different leases before and I think a few other people that have chimed in have as well.

 

[mosquitocontrol]

Wow more responses then I thought I'd get. Thanks for all the suggestions, links and comic relief. I know the thread turned to mostly complaining on my part.

I can't find the blank copy online at the moment. But I will post when I find it again. I've read it all thoroughly several times now and understand the most of it.

This is what we've collectively learned:
1- My landlord is dumb and inconsiderate. But I need to get over it so I don't drive myself crazy. Record all inconsiderate actions and make my intentions to stay through the lease obvious.
2- CO law has nothing concrete about anything. Coming from tenant friendly states like virginia and mass, colorado law is virtually useless. The only thing relevant it clarifies is I can't get kicked out if it sells. I can make a separate agreement for $ when the time comes if they want to move in. The worst that can happen is a foreclosure which federal law mandates 90 days notice.
3- The lease is vague and has no clauses about selling. Big surprise. But does describe that even NO notice is required to enter, and even CO law has no mandates for proper notice to enter. On this front, I may need to be a little more cooperative so she doesn't pull that out.

Otherwise it looks like a waiting game. Of course that's the worst part. Just need to concentrate on my own problems for awhile. Hopefully can get some income in to save up some money to move on in October.

On another note, I don't think I am going to make a stink about apartment issues that could potentially get us to break the lease. At least not at this time. They aren't really major issues while its winter. Its just not worth the frustration energy to pursue it and have the landlord get more upset and consequently more uncooperative. When spring comes and I actually want to open my windows I will worry about that. Also, if things start to get out of control I will start working this angle purely to get out of the lease.

 

[halister]

Hey, do you happen to know who the mortgage is through? Short Sales only last a couple of months then the F/C takes back over and in some large banks the F/C continues while the short sale is going on. See if you can find any public notices on it. I know some of the large banks once they foreclose you can enter into an agreement with them as long as you have a valid lease from the homeowner (residential lease agreement). See if the mortgage companies in your state are allowed this? No moving just have a very large home owner. lol They would rather have you in there keeping the place up than spend money every month checking up on the place and they can consider it occupied and not vacant. Throwing my 2 cents in and yes I work for XXXX mortgage company...

 

[mosquitocontrol]

Hey, do you happen to know who the mortgage is through? Short Sales only last a couple of months then the F/C takes back over and in some large banks the F/C continues while the short sale is going on. See if you can find any public notices on it. I know some of the large banks once they foreclose you can enter into an agreement with them as long as you have a valid lease from the homeowner (residential lease agreement). See if the mortgage companies in your state are allowed this?

Thanks for the heads up. I looked into it briefly today, but will have to check in monthly to see if there are any red flags on the start of foreclosure. Although I'm sure I'd be the first one to know since I'm at the property. I would rather have the place foreclose then at least I get 90 days notice and am eligible for cash for keys.

An offer was submitted to the bank yesterday and she seems hopeful. She wants us to sign a lease addendum so if the offer goes through the new owners can move in. No details except she would be willing to pay for moving expenses and return our security deposit. Hah! Naturally I was distracted all day listing potential clauses we'd like in it and brainstorming what we'd ask for. I'm thinking some sort of sliding scale of compensation based on amount of notice. Unfortunately I think someone is helping out the poor broad now because she used full sentences, punctuation, and capital letters in her email. So I am not sure how much leeway we will have in future negotiations.

From an observers standpoint though, I don't understand why she's putting any effort into the short sale at all. Why would she offer to pay for anything when its just going to be the new owner's problem? If she just stopped paying her mortgage and went into foreclosure she could be collecting free rent for a few months and have this over with. She rents a place 4 blocks away so she wouldn't have to worry about that.

Am I right in assuming that she will very soon just stop paying her mortgage if this offer falls through? At least then I can ask for some type of rent reduction.

 

[halister]

Well I'm sure she doesn't want a full foreclosure on her credit for 10 years and she has to pay int at tax time.
If they offer to keep your lease that's the time to tell them you were in talks to lower the rent
Don't be so quick to grab the keys for cash if they give you a good rent policy, they have stricter laws to follow..

 

[mosquitocontrol]

I realize I'm the one dragging out this post after most have my questions have been answered. But landlord just emailed me this with a request for us to sign. Made me just start laughing out loud even though I'm here all by myself. WHAT A JOKE.

Lastly, I think if you enter into a mortgage you should be forced to have an IQ test. Because man is she an absolute idiot.

I love the use of the word promise. But, honestly, I would feel more secure with pinky swear for a legally binding document.



LEASE ADDENDUM
This is an Addendum to the Lease entered into on 10 /1 / 2011 between (tenant) and (landlord) for the premises located at: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
This Addendum shall be and is incorporated into the Lease dated 02/ 02 /2012 between Tenant and Landlord. Tenant and Landlord agree to the following changes and/or additions to the Lease:

If the property sells and the new owners would like to take over residency at closing then the lease will be terminated. TENANTS will move out with my moving assistance.

The lease will be terminated at closing of the property.

Landlord promises to provide a 30 day notice to tenants.

This Addendum is to be effective as of (m/d/yr) 02 / 02 /2012

 

[zman]

I am going to vote with tell her to piss off unless you are compensated. Moving in the winter is a PITA. CO law allows you to stay until the end of the lease. At the very least she should be paying your moving expenses and giving you your deposit with a cashiers check. You are doing her a huge favor if you do this. I think you should be compensated if you do.

I know downtown is awesome and everything and the rental market is tight but you can get a good sized place with parking and or brewing space for what you pay to live in a 1bdr downtown

 

[mattd2]

I realize I'm the one dragging out this post after most have my questions have been answered. But landlord just emailed me this with a request for us to sign. Made me just start laughing out loud even though I'm here all by myself. WHAT A JOKE.

Lastly, I think if you enter into a mortgage you should be forced to have an IQ test. Because man is she an absolute idiot.

I love the use of the word promise. But, honestly, I would feel more secure with pinky swear for a legally binding document.



LEASE ADDENDUM
This is an Addendum to the Lease entered into on 10 /1 / 2011 between (tenant) and (landlord) for the premises located at: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
This Addendum shall be and is incorporated into the Lease dated 02/ 02 /2012 between Tenant and Landlord. Tenant and Landlord agree to the following changes and/or additions to the Lease:

If the property sells and the new owners would like to take over residency at closing then the lease will be terminated. TENANTS will move out with my moving assistance.

The lease will be terminated at closing of the property.

Landlord promises to provide a 30 day notice to tenants.

This Addendum is to be effective as of (m/d/yr) 02 / 02 /2012

Wow... that is the worstly written piece of s**t I have seen in a long time. I can't believe she would actually believe you would sign it, and even if you did that it wouldn't be easily contested by a real lawyer I would be looking at either, not signing it or ammending it to be very specific. i.e.:
When the lease ends (the exact day and time), is it end of day of closing etc.
The landlord shall give 30 days notice prior to settlement,
The landlord shall give 1 days notice prior to entering into an agreement to sell,
The landlord shall pay all cost acrued by the tenent associated with vacating and relocating to a new premise including but not limited to, removal company cost, van/truck hire, tempory storage costs, etc.
The landlord shall inspect the property once vacant within 1 days notice from the tenant,
The landlord shall return the security deposit (subject to original lease terms) within 3 days of the final inspection of the property,

and anything else you think is reasonable (maybe get someone with a bit more knowledge in property law to look into it for you).
The lease (and addendums) are the first point in the contract and it should be by exception when it falls back onto your states normal tenancy terms.

Send it back and see if she blindly signs it as she seems to want you to do

Just thought of another one. get her to put up the deposit on your next place while waiting for you security deposit from her back. That is one I always found a bitch when renting/moving - having to pay the deposit on the next place before you got the last place's deposit back! (I always got my deposit back because I looked after the places)

 

[JeepDiver]

Call the broker of the real estate agent that is listing the property and tell him you have a lease and they are listing the property as move in ready and mention the people coming in with little to no notice. He is the one responsible for any legal issues with the sell. He will more than likely get it corrected ASAP

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

This situation is a real mess. I definitely would not sign any addendum to the lease, especially without being compensated for it.

It's hard to say what you should or should not do not knowing the specifics of the lease or CO law. Chances are the repairs are not so significant that they would constitute a breach of warranty of habitability to justify leaving or terminating the contract. You're in a tough spot where the lease permits showings without notice (does it really say no notice is required or is the lease silent?) but you still probably have some privacy rights under the lease and/or law that justify some notice or restrictions. You definitely should not have to leave the apartment. You don't have to respond to her calls/texts/emails asking you to leave, either. I would probably tell her if she wants you to leave during showings you need X amount of time as a notice and Y amount of money per hour. Unless the lease says you have to leave.

One thing to consider is the law and/or the lease may require notice that she was in the apartment in your absence. If she or other people are coming in and not leaving notice that conforms to the lease or the law, that may be a breach of the lease and you may be able to scoot out.