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noobrich

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Made a lambic waited a year and compared to a purchased bottle.

The purchased bottle is significantly more sour.
A)
I brewed one of these a couple of years ago. For the second Brettanomyces fermentation I put the vile in a starter and then pitched the starter.
B)
For the last one , the second Brettanomyces fermentation I pitched the vile directly.

If i remember correctly I thought the first one (A) was more sour.

Anyone else completing lambics and running into a shortage of sour flavour problem as me.

thanks for the help in advance.
 

zoebisch01

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Well I have never made one myself (I have done lacto type mash additions though), but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night :D

Assuming you fermented then added the Brett, then bottled, then I think the limiting factor may be the lack of O2 for your Brett. Those big barrels the Lambic is stored in allow for all that wonderful spectrum of microflora who are O2 dependent to thrive. I am not sure how long the O2 in your headspace will support them.

Otherwise, it is possible you have to just wait longer. I am not sure. As long as the Brett get a foothold in the wort and you just have it in a secondary (with a wood peg or in a plastic container) it should do it's thing.

As I think about this more, did either form a pellicle?
 

landhoney

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Did you pitch just a single Brett strain? It sounds like you did, and Brett alone a pLambic does not make. Especially if you want sour, like you noticed Brett does not produce much sourness by itself. You need at the least Pedio(or maybe lacto) along with the Brett. My recommendation is to use one of Wyeast's or Whitelab's sour blends. Also, when using thse blends, I have learned that when used in 2nd/3rd/etc. batches the flavor improves and the sourness increases. So repitch you bug blends ad nauseum. :D Hope this helps.
 

avidhomebrewer

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I've made a few sour beers over the years. I have used Pedio and Wyeast 3278 and also made a lambic with just 3278 (no Pedio/Lacto). I honestly didn't notice a difference between either batch, and they both sat at least 2 years either in the bottle (at least 1 year) and the carboy (about another year). I have never tried 3278 and a Lacto strain; I have a Berlinner weisse going now with 1007 and Lacto. I'm quite interested in how that turns out. For my next Lambic, I'd use plain old 3278 and a lot of time.
 

Red Clay

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I've yet to do a Brett, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but some of these guys did. If you've got a wild and woolly fermentation question, someone on the Babble Belt HomeBrew forum can answer it.
 

landhoney

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avidhomebrewer said:
I've made a few sour beers over the years. I have used Pedio and Wyeast 3278 and also made a lambic with just 3278 (no Pedio/Lacto). I honestly didn't notice a difference between either batch, and they both sat at least 2 years...
"3278 Belgian Lambic Blend. Contains a selection of Saccharomyces add non-Saccharomyces which include Belgian style wheat beer yeast, Sherry yeast, two Brettanomyces strains and Lactic Acid Bacteria"

That lactic acid bacteria is most likely Pedio, but maybe Lacto. I'm not sure which, but those are the two big 'lactic acid bacteria'. So when you used just 3278 I think there was Pedio/Lacto in there. It is interesting to see that adding 'extra' Pedio didn't seem to make much difference.
 

avidhomebrewer

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landhoney, you are correct in stating that 3278 contains a sour bacteria (either Pedio or Lacto). As I'm sure you know, lactic bacteria and pedio bacteria are two totally different strains, but they both produce the sourness desired in Lambics. I also did try a commercial Lambic (Lindemann's, which was fantastic) and my homebrewed Lambic's were more sour than that. I did hear that Hanssens Kriek is one of the most sour Lambics around. However, I haven't tried this (can't get it where I live), but I did make it and it was fantastic. Try adding some maltodextrin to the mash (maybe about 8 oz.) to give the bacteria something to eat after the yeast consume all the goodies. This is just my opinion based on my experience; take it or leave it.
 

Iordz

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I have read that in order to get a more pronounced sour profile one should pitch on the remaining yeast. The sourness increases with each generation, untill the beer starts to become bad, after about the 4th.
EDIT: I didn't realise that you only used Brettanomyces and Saccharomyces cerevisiae
 

feedthebear

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Also, lactic acid production is dominates in months 4 through 10. When I sampled mine at 6 months, it was extremely sour. When I sampled it again at 10 months, it had mellowed considerably.
 

rhag1128

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feedthebear said:
Also, lactic acid production is dominates in months 4 through 10. When I sampled mine at 6 months, it was extremely sour. When I sampled it again at 10 months, it had mellowed considerably.
Your recepie please... and a follow up review....... the wife would love this style and any chance I get to 'loosen her up' a little bit would be beneficial:D
 
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noobrich

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thanks for the advise

avidhomebrewer outlined maltodextrin.

My question is: Why wouldn't the first fermentation not consume this maltodextrin?? How does is help the Brettanomyces and Saccharomyces?

You said to put it in the mash right.

Also please confirm the 8oz. is for a single 5 gallon batch
 

zoebisch01

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feedthebear said:
Also, lactic acid production is dominates in months 4 through 10. When I sampled mine at 6 months, it was extremely sour. When I sampled it again at 10 months, it had mellowed considerably.
That's interesting. I wonder how this could be. I am not aware of any reason why you'd see a pH shift back. Not trying to be argumentative, but I am wondering if it was some other aspect that didn't mask the acidity level?
 

zoebisch01

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noobrich said:
thanks for the advise

avidhomebrewer outlined maltodextrin.

My question is: Why wouldn't the first fermentation not consume this maltodextrin?? How does is help the Brettanomyces and Saccharomyces?

You said to put it in the mash right.

Also please confirm the 8oz. is for a single 5 gallon batch
If you hadn't added the Brett (or other than Saccharomyces) in the primary, there would be nothing to consume them really. Actually that is at the heart of what I think may be occuring. You need to provide 2 things for the sourness level to continue (aside from the addition of the acid producing bacteria) which is some level of O2 and food (dextrines, starches and Free Amino Nitrogen). Given the proper amounts and conditions there is no reason why there shouldn't be a continued drop in pH over time.
 

CBBaron

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noobrich said:
thanks for the advise

avidhomebrewer outlined maltodextrin.

My question is: Why wouldn't the first fermentation not consume this maltodextrin?? How does is help the Brettanomyces and Saccharomyces?

You said to put it in the mash right.

Also please confirm the 8oz. is for a single 5 gallon batch
Regular ale and lager yeasts cannot breakdown maltodextrin so no it is not consumed by your primary fermentation. However the bacteria and yeast in a lambic can break down the more complex sugars and produce the acids that make the beer sour. The malto give these organisms a little more to feed on than is normally left in the beer.

Craig
 

zoebisch01

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Keep in mind that commercial examples are often still stored in barrels that contain a plethora of microflora. I'd second the motion to get some Lacto producing guys in there (although I feel Lacto levels are better off lower, I prefer the 'clean' bite of Acetic acid) to help round out the flavor profile.
 

zoebisch01

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avidhomebrewer said:
landhoney, you are correct in stating that 3278 contains a sour bacteria (either Pedio or Lacto). As I'm sure you know, lactic bacteria and pedio bacteria are two totally different strains, but they both produce the sourness desired in Lambics. I also did try a commercial Lambic (Lindemann's, which was fantastic) and my homebrewed Lambic's were more sour than that. I did hear that Hanssens Kriek is one of the most sour Lambics around. However, I haven't tried this (can't get it where I live), but I did make it and it was fantastic. Try adding some maltodextrin to the mash (maybe about 8 oz.) to give the bacteria something to eat after the yeast consume all the goodies. This is just my opinion based on my experience; take it or leave it.
If you can find one, pick up a commercial Lambic. It will forever change your perspective. In fact I am willing to bet the ones you made hit under the true Lambics in terms of sourness as Lindemann's is highly sweetened post fermentation. :tank:
 

feedthebear

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zoebisch01 said:
That's interesting. I wonder how this could be. I am not aware of any reason why you'd see a pH shift back. Not trying to be argumentative, but I am wondering if it was some other aspect that didn't mask the acidity level?
Sorry I didn't respond quicker. Freakin' migraines.

My info is from Guinard's Classic Beer Style Series: Lambic (a must have, pitty it is out of print). In it he has a chapter and figures which talk about which yeast/bacteria strains are dominate during which times and phases of fermentation.

Yeast/bacteria begin their fermentation phase:
1. Enteric bacteria: 3 to 7 days.
2. Kloeckera apiculata: 3 to 7 days.
3. Sacchromyces species: 2 weeks.
4. Lactic acid bacteria: 3 to 4 months.
5. Pichia, Candida, Hansenula, Cryptococcus species: 8 months.
6. Brettanomyces species: 8 months.

Yeast/bacteria strains dominate fermentation
1. Enteric bacteria: 0 to 3 months.
2. Kioeckera apiculata: 0 to 1 month.
3. Saccharomyces species: 1 to 8 months.
4. Pediococcus species: 4 to 14 months, 19 to 24 months.
5. Yeasts of the Brettamoyces genus: 8 to 24 months.

Chemical production:
1. Ethanol production reaches its maximum at about 3 months.
2. Lactic acid production takes off at about 6 months and reaches maximum at about 11 months.
3. Ethyl lactate production takes off at about 7 months and reaches a maximum at about 13 months.
4. pH drops from about 4.75 to 3.25 in the first 6 months. It then drops to 3.0 between 6 months and 16 months. It then rises back to 3.5 between 16 months and 24 months.
 

CBBaron

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zoebisch01 said:
If you can find one, pick up a commercial Lambic. It will forever change your perspective. In fact I am willing to bet the ones you made hit under the true Lambics in terms of sourness as Lindemann's is highly sweetened post fermentation. :tank:
I need to hunt harder for a traditional lambic. I tried a Lindemann's but found it to taste like a bad koolaid. Way to sweet and fruity for my tastes. I am holding out hope for the more traditional (unsweetened) styles. Lindemann's is readily available around here but so far I have not found anything else.
Craig
 
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