Lambic Assist Needed- WY5526????

[Jsta Porter]

Hello,

Thanks for the help.


Issue:
I went to pick up the 3278 Belgian Lambic Blend that I had ordered at the LHBS. Grains are being mashed at this point. When I got there they had misordered 5526. I have not used the 5526 before, so I am unsure of how to add it. I know I should add a standard yeast to bring the gravity down.

I have Safale 04, 05 and Nottingham on hand.

I am not overly concerned with mimicing the 3278, I just want a great beer after I wait it out for the next 2 years.

Questions:
1. What should I use as the primary yeast?
2. When do I add the 5526?
3. Any other actions?

Thanks!!!!!!!!

The Recipe follows:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 4.35 %
7.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 60.87 %
4.00 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 34.78 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [1.35 %] (90 min) Hops 4.0 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.77 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 4.0 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 3.5 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 11.50 lb
Sparge Water: 3.60 gal Grain Temperature: 60.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 100.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

 

[Oldsock]

I would add the Brett L along with one of the dry yeasts in primary. I wouldn’t use the US-05 though, it is so attenuative that there would not be much left for the non-Saccharomyces microbes to eat after primary fermentation.

Anytime you get a sour beer (unpasteurized) for the next few weeks just pour the dregs into the carboy, this will provide the bacteria the beer needs for sourness as well as a few more Brett strains for complexity.

Good luck.

 

[Jsta Porter]

Thanks!! I ended up making a run and picking up some 1214 for the primary yeast. I plan to add the 5526 close to the end of fermentation.

Good to see you on this site Oldsock- thanks for the response, and your great website.

 

[Jsta Porter]

Here is a response from Wyeast:

Hi , Thank you for the email. 3278 Lambic Blend includes 6 cultures (1 Saccharomyces, 1 Sherry yeast,2 Brett strains, and 2 Lactic Acid Bacteria). Your beer will not havethe souring from bacteria, but should have a nice Brett profile. 5526 is one of the Brett cultures in the Lambic blend. I prefer to add the Brett earlier in fermentation to achieve the Brett character faster (1month). Adding the Brett at terminal will be fine, but it will take alittle longer to develop the desired character (1-2 months). You will not have to wait 2 years to enjoy this beer as it will be readyto bottle in a few months. I hope that this helps. Cheers

 

[lamarguy]

You will not have to wait 2 years to enjoy this beer as it will be ready to bottle in a few months. I hope that this helps. Cheers

That echos my experience.

Your beer should be ready in ~2 months, not 2 years like everyone around here seems to state over and over... And, US-05, Nottingham, etc. will work great ( your lambic should be dry).

If you want a beer with more brett/lacto character, pitch the lambic culture along with the primary yeast. If you want less brett/lacto character, wait until the krausen has fallen to pitch the lambic culture.

Good luck!

 

[Oldsock]

That echos my experience.

Your beer should be ready in ~2 months, not 2 years like everyone around here seems to state over and over...

It depends on your base beer. If you do a moderate gravity beer, mashed low and keep crystal malt to a minimum, you can definitely convince Brett to do its thing in a couple months (think Orval). That said, if you have a base beer with loads of unfermentables and multiple bugs it generally takes considerably longer in my experience.

I would suggest at a minimum taking gravity readings to ensure it is stable before putting it into bottles, if you keg then you don’t have anything to worry about. Just in terms of flavor the longer you age your beer the happier you will be, I still have bottles of my first sours (brewed nearly three years ago) that are still improving.

 

[Jsta Porter]

Thanks- that makes sense. Why would traditional lambic brewers age for 1-3 years if they did not have to?

 

[lamarguy]

Thanks- that makes sense. Why would traditional lambic brewers age for 1-3 years if they did not have to?

Tradition.

Why do brewers still use decoction mash techniques for well modified malt? Tradition.

 

[Oldsock]

Tradition.

Having just had a sample of “young” (year old) Boon lambic I can tell you that it tastes completely different (grainier, less acidic, mellower funk) than their gueuze which is predominantly much older beer (2-3 years).

I’ve done quite a few funky beers, and the only ones I have had that were great with less than 6 months of age were Berliner weisses and 100% brett beers (and both of those improved with more age).

Care to post a recipe/technique that you has turned out a great sour beer in just a couple months? Did it get as sour as a commercial lambic? Are you pitching a huge slurry of microbes?

 

[lamarguy]

Having just had a sample of “young” (year old) Boon lambic I can tell you that it tastes completely different (grainier, less acidic, mellower funk) than their gueuze which is predominantly much older beer (2-3 years).

I’ve done quite a few funky beers, and the only ones I have had that were great with less than 6 months of age were Berliner weisses and 100% brett beers (and both of those improved with more age).

Right, I hope you don't think I'm saying a lambic (or high gravity beer) flavor profile doesn't change slightly over time.

My point is - it is possible to make a good lambic within a couple of months. Is it going to be a great lambic? That's debatable, but it can be quite good in a short period of time.

Care to post a recipe/technique that you has turned out a great sour beer in just a couple months? Did it get as sour as a commercial lambic? Are you pitching a huge slurry of microbes?

Sure, I posted my experience a couple of months ago. For me, the key was building a large 2qt Brett/Laco starter from the bottle culture.

A full pellicle had formed within the first three weeks. After the first month, it was only slightly sour and very horsey (Brett was in the lead). After the second month, the sourness was more prominent than the horseyness, at which point I bottled it.

It turned out great! It's as sour and horsey as the original Lindeman's Cuvée René but has a nice, sharp raspberry character that makes it much more quaffable than Lindemans. I've brought some bottles to a couple of hombrew meetings and I've had many requests for the recipe and process.

As an ongoing experiment, I always tell people it's a year old when they first try it. The look on their face when I tell them it's quite young is priceless.

 

[Oldsock]

Glad to hear it turned out so well. That said, your process/recipe is very different from a traditional lambic (big pitch of microbes, high fermentation temperature, more fermentable wort, lower hopping rate). I don’t mean that as a knock, just as an explanation of why lambic brewers age their beers so much longer than you did. I would suspect that you are turning out a beer much closer to a Berliner weisse with lots of lactobacillus activity, but not as much pedio (which can produce higher levels of acidity, but takes longer).

More Brett complexity will come with time, but that would make me worry about over carbonation and possible bottle bombs. What was the gravity like at bottling? Are you storing the bottles cold after they carbonate?

 

[lamarguy]

More Brett complexity will come with time, but that would make me worry about over carbonation and possible bottle bombs. What was the gravity like at bottling? Are you storing the bottles cold after they carbonate?

OG - 1.052 (not considering gravity contribution from ~4lbs of raspberries)
FG - 1.004 (after 2 months)

I bottled with a small dose of champagne yeast and a large dose of sucrose to reach 4 volumes of CO2. It's been stored warm in PET bottles since late December 2008 with no obvious change in taste or carbonation levels.

And, ya, it may not be "authentic" by traditional standards, but it tastes nearly identical to Lindeman's Gueze and that ain't bad for a 2 month wait...

 

[Oldsock]

Certainly sounds like you got it dry enough that you shouldn’t have to worry about bottle bombs (although the PET was a safe option).

I’m confused, did you add raspberries to it, or does it just have a raspberry flavor? I have found fruit adds white a bit of acidity on its own and the simple sugars are great for the bacteria.

If you haven’t already, I would suggest trying a more traditional approach to see how the beers compare. My guess would be that the longer aging period would give much more complexity flavors.

 

[lamarguy]

I’m confused, did you add raspberries to it, or does it just have a raspberry flavor? I have found fruit adds white a bit of acidity on its own and the simple sugars are great for the bacteria.

Ya, I added 4lbs of pasteurized raspberries after the krausen fell. I tasted it weekly after I added the raspberries, so I'm not sure what it tasted like pre-raspberries. Like I mentioned earlier, it took 2 months to develop a good sourness to balance out the horsiness.

If you haven’t already, I would suggest trying a more traditional approach to see how the beers compare. My guess would be that the longer aging period would give much more complexity flavors.

Ya, I've got a batch planned for the future. I saved a lambic culture from the first batch that should do well.

 

[B-Dub]

So how is this beer tasting now? And the carb level?

Sounds like what RR and Lost Abbey is doing with huge pitches of bugs.

Lots of bugs=short wait.

That being said, it doesn't mean the beer doesn't get better over time. It just let you get it out of the bulk tank and bottle it for the waiting.

Sounds good to me!

 

[jkarp]

I thoroughly enjoyed Russian River's Consecration last weekend in Santa Rosa. It had the perfect level of sour and it's only 6 months old.

 

[Oldsock]

I thoroughly enjoyed Russian River's Consecration last weekend in Santa Rosa. It had the perfect level of sour and it's only 6 months old.

I agree one of the best beers out there. However, while the base beer may have only spent 6 months in oak, Vinnie is renowned for blending beers. His Toronado 20th (which Consecration is based on) included a portion of "Sonambic 100% spontaneously fermented ale (AKA Beatification) – this was used to add acidity to the beer", I would not be surprised if the same is true for this incarnation.

 

[Bobby_M]

My kriek was pretty horrible at 3 months and is now good and drinkable at 6 months. I can't imagine what it would have been at 2.