lalvin 71b-1122 Long lag time?

[rwing7486]

Hey guys, making my first 1 gallon batch of fruit mead using peaches (see recipe below). My process for this batch was I mixed 0.5 gallon of water and honey and heated it up slowly to 130F and holding it at this temp for 15 minutes. While holding at 130F I added the gypsum, acid blend and yeast nutrient. I then cooled to 70F and poured the must into a sanitized 1 gallon fermenter, added the remaining 0.5gallon of spring water and then added the peaches and raisins (peaches and raisins were dunked in star san before adding to the fermenter). I then shook the fermenter to aerate the must and then added the metabisulfite. After 24 hours I began to hydrate the 71B yeast as instructed: warmed 2oz of water to 105F in sterilized glass container, sprinkled the yeast on top, covered and let sit for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes i gently stirred the yeast and then pitched it into about 65F must. It has now been 14 hours since I pitched the yeast and there is no fermentation activity visibly present. The yeast is just sitting on the bottom of the fermenter. Is this normal with this yeast? does it usually have this long of a lag time?

Measured SG 1.090

3lbs of Good Rich Honey (Metamora, MI)
1 gallon spring water
2 small peaches (pitted and quartered)
25 raisins
Lavilin 71B 122 Yeast
¾ tsp Gypsum
2tsp Acid Blend
1tsp Yeast Nutrient
1/8 tsp Potassium Metabisulfite (added to must in fermenter)

 

[Yooper]

1/8 tsp of k-meta is a LOT- that's three times a minimum dose.

That shouldn't stop fermentation indefinitely, but it's definitely enough to slow/stop the yeast.

I'd stir the heck out of that must several times a day, to try to offgas some of that sulfite.

You don't need to sanitize the fruit with star-san, that's what the sulfite is in there for.

Why the gypsum? It's not an issue, but I wonder why the gypsum was added?

 

[Maylar]

No, not normal. Did you cool the yeast slurry to within a few degrees of the must before pitching it?

 

[laredo7mm]

14 hours is not a long time. Start worrying after 72 hours. I just did an apple cider with the same yeast it it took 24 hours before I saw any activity and I pitched two packets of hydrated yeast. Also, if you pitched your 105° yeast into 65° must without tempering the yeast, there may have been some damage due to temperature shock.

 

[rwing7486]

14 hours is not a long time. Start worrying after 72 hours. I just did an apple cider with the same yeast it it took 24 hours before I saw any activity and I pitched two packets of hydrated yeast. Also, if you pitched your 105° yeast into 65° must without tempering the yeast, there may have been some damage due to temperature shock.

1/8 tsp of k-meta is a LOT- that's three times a minimum dose.

That shouldn't stop fermentation indefinitely, but it's definitely enough to slow/stop the yeast.

I'd stir the heck out of that must several times a day, to try to offgas some of that sulfite.

You don't need to sanitize the fruit with star-san, that's what the sulfite is in there for.

Why the gypsum? It's not an issue, but I wonder why the gypsum was added?

I am guessing its the temp shock as I didnt cool down the yeast to the temp of the must. I will give it a stir when i get home this evening.

I added 1/8tsp of K meta based on the recommendation of the packaging which said to add 1/4 tbs per 5/6 gallon of wort - so that is 0.75 tsp per 5/6 gallon batch. I divided that by 5 for a 1 gallon addition which comes out to 0.15 tsp, 1/8tsp is 0.125 which is why i added a 1/8tsp.
I added gypsum for a slightly drier finish

 

[Yooper]

I am guessing its the temp shock as I didnt cool down the yeast to the temp of the must. I will give it a stir when i get home this evening.

I added 1/8tsp of K meta based on the recommendation of the packaging which said to add 1/4 tbs per 5/6 gallon of wort - so that is 0.75 tsp per 5/6 gallon batch. I divided that by 5 for a 1 gallon addition which comes out to 0.15 tsp, 1/8tsp is 0.125 which is why i added a 1/8tsp.
I added gypsum for a slightly drier finish

The dosage I've always seen for k-meta is 1/4 teaspoon (not tablespoon) per 6 gallon batch. Adding gypsum to mead is weird, but the calcium in it and the sulfate won't hurt fermentation I wouldn't think. Except it might lower the pH quite a bit, and that can be an issue.

Acid blend can really slow or stall fermentation also, and that's something I didn't think about at first.

It is most likely the sulfite added, but it could be a combination of the low pH from the acid blend along with the sulfite (which makes the sulfite more effective) could be the combo that kills it. Sulfite is greatly pH dependent as well- the higher the pH, the more sulfite needed for the same effect.

Two teaspoons of acid blend is a LOT. A really really lot, especially with the fruit, and that may make the large dose of sulfite toxic to yeast. Did you take any pH readings? Adjusting the pH is good, but not too low. Mead is a tough enough ferment without making the acidity too tough for the yeast to get going.

I'd stir the dickens out of it at least twice per day.

Edit- I just saw you added 3/4 teaspoon of gypsum. Egads, that's also a lot. The flavor impact may be horrible with minerally flavor, but that's not the issue for fermentation. Using that much gypsum may have also driven the pH very low, and with the huge dose of acid blend and the huge dose of sulfites, I'm thinking this may be a goner. I hope not, but could be.

 

[rwing7486]

The dosage I've always seen for k-meta is 1/4 teaspoon (not tablespoon) per 6 gallon batch. Adding gypsum to mead is weird, but the calcium in it and the sulfate won't hurt fermentation I wouldn't think. Except it might lower the pH quite a bit, and that can be an issue.

Acid blend can really slow or stall fermentation also, and that's something I didn't think about at first.

It is most likely the sulfite added, but it could be a combination of the low pH from the acid blend along with the sulfite (which makes the sulfite more effective) could be the combo that kills it. Sulfite is greatly pH dependent as well- the higher the pH, the more sulfite needed for the same effect.

Two teaspoons of acid blend is a LOT. A really really lot, especially with the fruit, and that may make the large dose of sulfite toxic to yeast. Did you take any pH readings? Adjusting the pH is good, but not too low. Mead is a tough enough ferment without making the acidity too tough for the yeast to get going.

I'd stir the dickens out of it at least twice per day.

Edit- I just saw you added 3/4 teaspoon of gypsum. Egads, that's also a lot. The flavor impact may be horrible with minerally flavor, but that's not the issue for fermentation. Using that much gypsum may have also driven the pH very low, and with the huge dose of acid blend and the huge dose of sulfites, I'm thinking this may be a goner. I hope not, but could be.

So my game plan is to go to my LHBS after work and pick up some potassium bicarbonate and fresh yeast (just in case) and will check the pH of the must. Depending on this reading i will add a calculated amount until the pH rises to an "acceptable level" - between 3.5 and 4.0. I will then stir the crap out of it and see if the yeast comes back to life. If not i will try re hydrating and pitching a fresh yeast packet. I am hoping i can still save this batch

 

[fossilcat]

Besides the temp shock and K-Meta issue there might also be a couple of other things that could be contributing to the, let's call it, "extended" lag time.

Acid blend should be added after fermentation close to when you bottle to sharpen the fruit taste. Adding it at fermentation time decreases the pH in a must that is already dealing with an acidic substrate - honey. Addition of potassium carbonate (or bicarbonate) will help buffer the must and maintain a more tolerable 3.5 pH as fermentation progresses, but decreasing the pH with acid blend right at the start could at least contribute to your slow start.

Did you hydrate with anything beside water? Like GoFerm? When you "wake up" the yeast they're vulnerable to their environment and hungry. This explains the temp shock your yeast may have endured. As far as the hungry part - GoFerm directions say to atemperate and pitch the yeast before 30 minutes or add some must to the rehydration solution or the yeast begin to starve and die. Therefore, if you rehydrated without nutrient, I'd bet your yeast started to starve and die as soon as they woke up.

So, I think there's a few things here that could be contributing.

 

[rwing7486]

Besides the temp shock and K-Meta issue there might also be a couple of other things that could be contributing to the, let's call it, "extended" lag time.

Acid blend should be added after fermentation close to when you bottle to sharpen the fruit taste. Adding it at fermentation time decreases the pH in a must that is already dealing with an acidic substrate - honey. Addition of potassium carbonate (or bicarbonate) will help buffer the must and maintain a more tolerable 3.5 pH as fermentation progresses, but decreasing the pH with acid blend right at the start could at least contribute to your slow start.

Did you hydrate with anything beside water? Like GoFerm? When you "wake up" the yeast they're vulnerable to their environment and hungry. This explains the temp shock your yeast may have endured. As far as the hungry part - GoFerm directions say to atemperate and pitch the yeast before 30 minutes or add some must to the rehydration solution or the yeast begin to starve and die. Therefore, if you rehydrated without nutrient, I'd bet your yeast started to starve and die as soon as they woke up.

So, I think there's a few things here that could be contributing.

No I did not use any nutrient like go ferm. I added yeast to 105F water for 15 minutes stirred gently and then added to my must. I checkled my must pH using precision labs 2.2 to 4.4 pH strips and the reading looked to be right around 3.6. I did give my mead a good stir to aerate it. I also bought some fresh yeast at my LHBS. Should I wait another 24 hours before pitching more yeast?

 

[fossilcat]

Yes, wait another day or so and then pitch again. KV1-1116 or EC-1118 are real strong, known for re-starting troubled fermentations. I like 1116, has a nice ester profile, 1118 seems to just blow flavor out of the the airlock. Do some research on GoFerm, it really gives your yeast a good boost. My 71B lag time is about 3.5 hours, maybe even sooner but that's when I usually check. If you can't get GoFerm in time don't be tempted to use regular nutrient to re-hydrate - it'll damage the newly re-constituted cell walls, especially the DAP. Boil (and kill) some bread yeast and mix with some honey (1 tsp) to re-hydrate. Make a 4-5 oz solution.

71B might be my favorite yeast by the way. Great with fruit.

It's hard to believe that the amount of acid blend you added and the gypsum that Yooper said would also effect pH didn't effect your overall pH. I used the strips for a while but determined they were no good after my must pH matched lemon juice. I thought it was a bad batch of strips. I'm not saying yours are bad but in my experience reliability is questionable.

So with everything (possibly) going on with your batch, and if fermentation doesn't start in the next day or so, I would double down. But that's me, I hate to admit defeat. Doubling your volume could cut your negatives in half and give your re-pitch a better chance. Double your water and honey to a volume of 2 gallons. Forget the raisins and add the peaches to secondary. No more gypsum of course. Good luck.

 

[rwing7486]

Yes, wait another day or so and then pitch again. KV1-1116 or EC-1118 are real strong, known for re-starting troubled fermentations. I like 1116, has a nice ester profile, 1118 seems to just blow flavor out of the the airlock. Do some research on GoFerm, it really gives your yeast a good boost. My 71B lag time is about 3.5 hours, maybe even sooner but that's when I usually check. If you can't get GoFerm in time don't be tempted to use regular nutrient to re-hydrate - it'll damage the newly re-constituted cell walls, especially the DAP. Boil (and kill) some bread yeast and mix with some honey (1 tsp) to re-hydrate. Make a 4-5 oz solution.

71B might be my favorite yeast by the way. Great with fruit.

It's hard to believe that the amount of acid blend you added and the gypsum that Yooper said would also effect pH didn't effect your overall pH. I used the strips for a while but determined they were no good after my must pH matched lemon juice. I thought it was a bad batch of strips. I'm not saying yours are bad but in my experience reliability is questionable.

So with everything (possibly) going on with your batch, and if fermentation doesn't start in the next day or so, I would double down. But that's me, I hate to admit defeat. Doubling your volume could cut your negatives in half and give your re-pitch a better chance. Double your water and honey to a volume of 2 gallons. Forget the raisins and add the peaches to secondary. No more gypsum of course. Good luck.

Ya I was a little surprised from the pH test myself and questioned it, but since I dont have anything else to go on I dont want to add K bicarbonate yet since i do not know how much to add. I did pick up some GoFerm with my new yeast and plan to use if nothing is happening after 72 hours. I have been shaking the fermenter every couple of hours when I am at home to try and degas the sulfite.

If I end of pitching new yeast with Goferm and there is still no activity within 24 hours i might start adding small amounts of K bicarbonate (about 0.5 to 1g at a time) every 24 hours until i see signs of fermentation. This is the last thing i think of trying before throwing in the towel. Maybe try another yeast like you said above, idk.

 

[Yooper]

Yep, give it some time. Stir often, and if you need to add fresh yeast in a day or two, you can do that.

It's too late now, but for next time, don't use calcium sulfate (not a great flavor in wine or mead, and not going to dry out the mead anyway), and save the other additions for flavoring after (like tannin and acid blend) if needed. Mead is pretty simple and easy, if you take care of the yeast.

The only reason you've even need k-meta at the beginning is for the fruit, and ideally you wouldn't even heat the honey at all. Heating the honey even to 120 degrees changes the flavor and structure of it. It's best done as a cold process, generally speaking.

 

[rwing7486]

Yep, give it some time. Stir often, and if you need to add fresh yeast in a day or two, you can do that.

It's too late now, but for next time, don't use calcium sulfate (not a great flavor in wine or mead, and not going to dry out the mead anyway), and save the other additions for flavoring after (like tannin and acid blend) if needed. Mead is pretty simple and easy, if you take care of the yeast.

The only reason you've even need k-meta at the beginning is for the fruit, and ideally you wouldn't even heat the honey at all. Heating the honey even to 120 degrees changes the flavor and structure of it. It's best done as a cold process, generally speaking.

Thanks for the advice. I only heated the honey up to reduce the viscosity so it would make it easier for a gravity reading and to dissolve the additions i added.

 

[bernardsmith]

Thanks for the advice. I only heated the honey up to reduce the viscosity so it would make it easier for a gravity reading and to dissolve the additions i added.

Gravity readings of honey are not really necessary. A good rule of thumb is to assume that if you dissolve 1 lb of honey in enough water to make 1 US gallon your SG will be 1.035. Dissolve 2 lbs to make the same volume and your reading will be 1.070. Now some honey may have more moisture and some honey less but 1.035 /lb/per gallon is a good rule of thumb. In fact that same gravity seems to be the same for maple syrup: I just started a gallon of acerglyn last night and used the quantity of sugar listed on the nutritional label to calculate the SG and then measured the SG with my hydrometer and I think the two figures were close enough to be mistaken for twins. The two lbs of MS in enough water to make 1 gallon gave me a reading of 1.072 (the syrup and the water were at 68F)

 

[fossilcat]

Ya I was a little surprised from the pH test myself and questioned it, but since I dont have anything else to go on I dont want to add K bicarbonate yet since i do not know how much to add. I did pick up some GoFerm with my new yeast and plan to use if nothing is happening after 72 hours. I have been shaking the fermenter every couple of hours when I am at home to try and degas the sulfite.

If I end of pitching new yeast with Goferm and there is still no activity within 24 hours i might start adding small amounts of K bicarbonate (about 0.5 to 1g at a time) every 24 hours until i see signs of fermentation. This is the last thing i think of trying before throwing in the towel. Maybe try another yeast like you said above, idk.

You shouldn't be concerned about adding potassium (bi)carbonate. I routinely add 1/2 tsp per gal to every must, more by 1/2 tsp incriments depending on what I suspect is an acidic additive to primary. Even if its buffering ability is not needed, the added potassium will help benefit nutrient requirements.

The amount of GoFerm and water you use depends on how much yeast you're pitching:

Rehydration for 5 gm of dry yeast:
6.25 gms of GoFerm
5 gm of yeast
Heat 4 oz of water to 110 and added GoFerm
Cool to 104 and add yeast.

 

[rwing7486]

You shouldn't be concerned about adding potassium (bi)carbonate. I routinely add 1/2 tsp per gal to every must, more by 1/2 tsp incriments depending on what I suspect is an acidic additive to primary. Even if its buffering ability is not needed, the added potassium will help benefit nutrient requirements.

The amount of GoFerm and water you use depends on how much yeast you're pitching:

Rehydration for 5 gm of dry yeast:
6.25 gms of GoFerm
5 gm of yeast
Heat 4 oz of water to 110 and added GoFerm
Cool to 104 and add yeast.

Do you use spring water when making your must? if so I guess I will add 1/2 tsp of the K bicarbonate to the fermenter once i get home and give the fermenter a good shake once you add your yeast at 104F and let sit for 15 minutes, do you stir it and let it cool to room temp (same temp as the must) before pitching it into the fermenter?

 

[fossilcat]

My water is pumped from an aquifer 47 feet down, from a drilled well in my back yard. So yeah, spring water. Makes goooood coffee too.

I start the clock when I add the yeast at 104. I stir to mix and then about 10 more times until about the 20 min mark. Then I add 2 oz of must. This helps the sol'n to get closer to your must temp and it helps acclimate the yeast to your must's environment. It also buys you a few more minutes behond the 30 min GoFerm is apparently spent. I stir for another 5 minutes or so then pitch.

I mix my must at about 85* so it's easier to match the temp of the rehydration sol'n. I didn't always do this and struggled within the time period to match temps. Now, I get real close in temp, but have pitched within 12*. I think you're ok with a 15* to 17* difference.

 

[rwing7486]

My water is pumped from an aquifer 47 feet down, from a drilled well in my back yard. So yeah, spring water. Makes goooood coffee too.

I start the clock when I add the yeast at 104. I stir to mix and then about 10 more times until about the 20 min mark. Then I add 2 oz of must. This helps the sol'n to get closer to your must temp and it helps acclimate the yeast to your must's environment. It also buys you a few more minutes behond the 30 min GoFerm is apparently spent. I stir for another 5 minutes or so then pitch.

I mix my must at about 85* so it's easier to match the temp of the rehydration sol'n. I didn't always do this and struggled within the time period to match temps. Now, I get real close in temp, but have pitched within 12*. I think you're ok with a 15* to 17* difference.

So I added the 1/2tsp of K bicarbonate last night and took another pH reading with the "precision labs" test strips. It looks like the pH is now around 4 now. I shook and agitated the must a couple of times before going to bed. This morning I woke up and still no signs of fermenation. I plan to use your yeast hydration strategy with a 5g packet of 71B and pitch into my must. If this doesnt work is my mead dead? maybe the yeast is old from my LHBS? My only thought is if this doesnt work is to pitch a different yeast.

 

[fossilcat]

Just to make sure... how are you determining activity? Are you looking for a difference in gravity readings or are you watching for bubbles in the airlock? Bubbles in the airlock are a notoriously unreliable indicator of active fermentation.

 

[rwing7486]

Just to make sure... how are you determining activity? Are you looking for a difference in gravity readings or are you watching for bubbles in the airlock? Bubbles in the airlock are a notoriously unreliable indicator of active fermentation.

I haven't taken a gravity readings (yet) but I have glass fermenters and dont see any bubbles forming on the top surface of the must and i see the yeast sitting on the bottom of the carboy.

 

[stpug]

When in doubt, lalvin K1V will destroy those sugars (and any other yeast/bacteria you might have in the fermenter due to it's competitive nature). I've used is several times with meads and like it quite a bit.

As for the laggy state you're in, I've found 71B to be pretty laggy myself. I used it in both a grape must/wine and apple cider. In both cases, it took well over 24 hours to get moving, and even then it didn't take off very fast. In one of those batches I even pitched another sachet the next day (not that it was needed) to get things moving along a little quicker.

 

[MarkKF]

....and ideally you wouldn't even heat the honey at all. Heating the honey even to 120 degrees changes the flavor and structure of it. It's best done as a cold process, generally speaking.

Would that be the same for heating just the water then stirring in the room temp. honey?

 

[rwing7486]

Got home yesterday and there were signs of fermentation finally! and this morning it was chugging away nicely. thanks everyone for your help!

 

[fossilcat]

Wow! That's great news. It's amazing how resilient yeast is.

Almost like anticipating a birth in the family, isn't it?