Lallemand "Sourvisiae" making sour brewing even simpler!

[deeve007]

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...ch-of-lactic-acid-producing-yeast-sourvisiae/

Making it easy for anyone to brew a sour! (well, easier, their Sour Pitch already made it pretty easy...)

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hmm, interesting to see how this sells, more details from Lallemand's development company :
https://www.mascoma.com/applications-products/products/sourvisiae/

"Sourvisiae® contains a single genetic modification, a lactate dehydrogenase gene from a food microorganism, which enables the yeast to produce high levels of lactic acid"

Not surprisingly they've decided that Europe isn't ready for transgenic ("GM") yeast, it's only sold in the US for now.

 

[TandemTails]

I would have loved this a couple of years ago. I remember hearing about it back then and being very excited. While I've had a couple long term sours going, I haven't made a gose/berliner weisse in years. I feel like this yeast is meant to be used more in those styles than the typical long term sours.

 

[deeve007]

I would have loved this a couple of years ago. I remember hearing about it back then and being very excited. While I've had a couple long term sours going, I haven't made a gose/berliner weisse in years. I feel like this yeast is meant to be used more in those styles than the typical long term sours.

Lallemand's "WildBrew Sour Pitch" already makes sours super easy, I'm doing one right now as my 4th ever brew. It's basically BIAB brewing as normal, but simply co-pitching the Sour Pitch with the yeast. That's basically it, it's been very easy!

I have a couple of litres already bottled, with most of the batch split in two and secondary fermenting, one with passionfruit, the other with mixed red fruits.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Most of the flavor in my sours comes from the yeast and bacteria, so it wouldn't make sense for me to use this.

As you mentioned, it's already super easy to sour with bacteria.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Hmmm. I'm not sure what benefit it's supposed to give over using Lactobacillus plantarum. They say to adjust sourness by blending with another yeast strain or blending the beer - it's easier with L. plantarum to just add some hops when it's exactly as sour as you want it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

While I've had a couple long term sours going, I haven't made a gose/berliner weisse in years.

So, what's holding you back?

 

[TandemTails]

So, what's holding you back?

I feel like my tastes have shifted away from sour beers in the last couple of years. my fellow local homebrewers and friends I drink with don't really gravitate toward them anymore either.

I've had a solera sour going for 4 years and i think this year might just bottle all of it and not top it off. I just don't need that much sour beer that sits in bottles in my office without anyone really wanting a sour beer.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I feel like my tastes have shifted away from sour beers in the last couple of years. my fellow local homebrewers and friends I drink with don't really gravitate toward them anymore either.

I've had a solera sour going for 4 years and i think this year might just bottle all of it and not top it off. I just don't need that much sour beer that sits in bottles in my office without anyone really wanting a sour beer.

Send it to meeeeee.

 

[brownni5]

Hmmm. I'm not sure what benefit it's supposed to give over using Lactobacillus plantarum. They say to adjust sourness by blending with another yeast strain or blending the beer - it's easier with L. plantarum to just add some hops when it's exactly as sour as you want it.

One less step? Bacteria scare brewers? I'm not interested in this, but I can see why some would be.

 

[deeve007]

If certainty like to try it, why not?

 

[cactusgarrett]

I feel like the main draw for this product would be to give consumers peace of mind that there isn't another bug floating around the brewhouse, with potential to contaminate gear or the need to use separate gear.

 

[deeve007]

And that is a concern a sole trader brewer friend of mine has, he can't afford to buy new equipment if something major gets infected, even if the chance is only small with proper sanitation & cleaning. I can appreciate his concerns.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

On the other hand, it's probably easier to control acid-producing lactobacteria than it is acid-producing yeast...

 

[kdw2pd]

Definite advantages and disadvantages. It's hop tolerant, so it'll be a nice contrast since most lacto is so hop intolerant. OTOH, it will make a bracingly sour beer, final pH near 3.0!

I can see this being a great tool for sour brewers, as it'd be an extremely easy way to make an acid beer for blending with mixed fermentations. I'm personally excited that there are options to get a clean, simple quick-turnaround sour beer without having to kettle sour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't see how this gives any rational peace of mind.

The thing is, there are already billions-trillions of wild yeast and bacteria strains floating around in everyone's brew house. Leave an open container of wort in your brew area; you'll see how quickly it starts growing. We all rely on our cleaning and sanitation processes to prevent contamination.
Notably, wild bacteria are often much more hop-tolerant than L. plantarum.

"Contaminating" your gear with fully hop-tolerant acid yeast seems much worse than hop-sensitive bacteria in my opinion, because your clean batches have no intrinsic protection from it.

And, we certainly do have options for a simple quick turnaround sour beer without kettle souring. My personal record is 3 days grain to packaging.

 

[brownni5]

Again, I don't have a dog in the hunt: I'm neither planning on using thiqs or afraid of bacteria, but if it is indeed just an ale strain, I wouldn't be afraid of it souring other batches, either. For all the fear surrounding diastaticus strains, I brew with them all the time, yet have no problem with over attenuation in any other brews. Ale strains are outcompeted pretty easily.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

One less step? Bacteria scare brewers? I'm not interested in this, but I can see why some would be.

Which step? It saves a step versus kettle souring, but not compared with co-pitching. Maybe it gives a different flavour profile to that of Lactobacillus?
I find the development quite interesting (the whole field of GM is interesting) and can see some exciting possibilities with GM yeast (I'm thinking a lambic style beer from a single strain of Saccharomyces in two weeks!!!) but I just can't see any benefit to this one.

 

[brownni5]

Which step? It saves a step versus kettle souring, but not compared with co-pitching. Maybe it gives a different flavour profile to that of Lactobacillus?
I find the development quite interesting (the whole field of GM is interesting) and can see some exciting possibilities with GM yeast (I'm thinking a lambic style beer from a single strain of Saccharomyces in two weeks!!!) but I just can't see any benefit to this one.

Yes, I meant kettle souring. I doubt this will appeal to the co-pitch crowd. Again, I find myself in that crowd - I don't plan on using this, but I understand the appeal.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Has anyone actually used this and can report back on the experience? I'm not a huge fan of sours but this kinda appeals as a easy and repeatable method.

Learned my lesson with pichia apotheca for a while. Infected half my home brewing equipment by accident. Would have a fine tasting wort at bottling, only to have the pichia show up a month later in the bottle. Threw out a bunch of my equipment after trying to sanitize with PBW, and separately with a really strong bleach/vinegar solution.

Making one last try to save my 30 liter Speidel. The converted stainless brewpot should be okay now after swapping out the gaskets. Worse than herpes simplex 4.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Has anyone actually used this and can report back on the experience? I'm not a huge fan of sours but this kinda appeals as a easy and repeatable method.

Learned my lesson with pichia apotheca for a while. Infected half my home brewing equipment by accident. Would have a fine tasting wort at bottling, only to have the pichia show up a month later in the bottle. Threw out a bunch of my equipment after trying to sanitize with PBW, and separately with a really strong bleach/vinegar solution.

Making one last try to save my 30 liter Speidel. The converted stainless brewpot should be okay now after swapping out the gaskets. Worse than herpes simplex 4.

 

[deeve007]

Has anyone actually used this and can report back on the experience? I'm not a huge fan of sours but this kinda appeals as a easy and repeatable method.

Learned my lesson with pichia apotheca for a while. Infected half my home brewing equipment by accident. Would have a fine tasting wort at bottling, only to have the pichia show up a month later in the bottle. Threw out a bunch of my equipment after trying to sanitize with PBW, and separately with a really strong bleach/vinegar solution.

Making one last try to save my 30 liter Speidel. The converted stainless brewpot should be okay now after swapping out the gaskets. Worse than herpes simplex 4.

You need to check out the co-pitching sour method, next to zero chance of infection and simple.

 

[kmarkstevens]

checking out the co-pitching - Thanks!

Question if one can hop normally with with the Sourvisiae? Anyone know? I checked the website and the Sourvisiae pdf fact sheet, and neither mention hopping. I'm not sure if it makes any kind of sense to hop a sour, but my understanding is that most sour cultures can't be hopped over about 10 IBU. I also wrote to Mascoma and will report back if they answer me.

 

[RPh_Guy]

checking out the co-pitching - Thanks!

Question if one can hop normally with with the Sourvisiae? Anyone know? I checked the website and the Sourvisiae pdf fact sheet, and neither mention hopping. I'm not sure if it makes any kind of sense to hop a sour, but my understanding is that most sour cultures can't be hopped over about 10 IBU. I also wrote to Mascoma and will report back if they answer me.

Hops do not inhibit yeast, only certain bacteria. Aroma hops can definitely go very well in sour beer, but not much bitterness.

In case you haven't found it, here's the thread about co-souring:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fast-souring-modern-methods.670176/

Cheers

 

[kmarkstevens]

Hops do not inhibit yeast, only certain bacteria. Aroma hops can definitely go very well in sour beer, but not much bitterness.

In case you haven't found it, here's the thread about co-souring:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fast-souring-modern-methods.670176/

Cheers

Thanks RPh_Guy. I'm starting to go thru the co-souring thread.

Lallemond answered with confirming your comments: Being that Sourvisiae is a S.cerevisiae, it does not have any more sensitivity to hop acids than a typical ale yeast. We’ve had brewers make a number of IPAs with the yeast with no ill effects, so hop away!!

 

[govner1]

Unfortunately, Lallemand is currently only selling in 500g bricks for breweries. Packaging for home brewers is currently not available and not specifics were provided as to when it might be available.