Lager newbie here, need advice on general protocol

[gubby]

After years of ale brewing, I'm finally taking the plunge into lagers and brewing a Marzen with WLP820 this Sunday. However, I recently realized how clueless I am in terms of specific protocols. These are the questions I have:

1) I can cool the wort with a chiller to about 65F. Is it okay to pitch yeast at this temp and then cool down in the fridge, or should I cool down to fermentation temp first?

2) What's a good temperature to set the fridge at for primary fermentation?

3) At what point should I do a diacetyl rest and how should I achieve that? Raise the fridge temp a bit?

4) Should I rack to another vessel when ready to lager?

Any tips/articles/links for a newbie lager brewer would be very welcome.

 

[optimal_pizza]

The lager method from Brulosophy seems to get good reviews around here:
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

 

[helibrewer]

EDIT: Pitch adequate yeast!

1) Yes, you can start high with lager yeast, in fact Chris White of White Labs recommends it for the lag phase. It depends on how fast you can cool it into the 50's after that phase though.

2) I ferment at 55F

3) You can start the rest about 75% through fermentation (based on OG and expected FG). Just move the fermenter to room temp for about 3 days.

4) You can, I lager in my kegs, if you bottle, I would just leave it in the primary vessel.

 

[Morrey]

helibrewer has offered you good advice. I brewed a Marzen last weekend and have it bubbling away at 53F. 55F is fine.

Do a big starter. I often step mine if you are familiar with that process. If not, give it 48 hours to build.

I got my wort cooled to 65F, aerated well, then pitched when the yeast was at 60F. The yeast likes going to a warm environment just like we enjoy a dip in a warm spa. The temp controller had it down to 53F within a few hours. (you don't want this to drag out)

Bring to a d-rest after you hit 1.020 or close around in there. I just base my plans on two weeks in primary at 53F and don't think much about it. Bump to 65F for 2-3 days and the yeast will finish fermenting and clean itself up. Then I crash it on down to 33F still in primary. I add gelatin and wait a day to clear before racking.

Do you plan to bottle or keg???? I keg so I just go straight to the lager phase at 33F. The wait....how long? This is debatable. I like lager conditioning over a month up to 2 months. You'll be unlikely to wait that long on lager #1. Rest assured, it gets better with some time.

 

[slym2none]

Please: pay attention to fermentation temps, no matter what some other people might say. If you want to brew a lager, it has to be fermented cold.

I just had to get that out there.

 

[gubby]

Thanks for all the great replies!

Ok, based on the feedback, I think I'm going to pitch at 60-65F, set fridge at 50F, then put carboy in there. Let it go through primary, then take it out to do the diacetyl rest. After that, lager at 35F for a couple weeks. Keg and drink.

 

[Morrey]

Please: pay attention to fermentation temps, no matter what some other people might say. If you want to brew a lager, it has to be fermented cold.

I just had to get that out there.

What is your definition of "cold"? In terms of specific temps...

 

[Morrey]

Thanks for all the great replies!

Ok, based on the feedback, I think I'm going to pitch at 60-65F, set fridge at 50F, then put carboy in there. Let it go through primary, then take it out to do the diacetyl rest. After that, lager at 35F for a couple weeks. Keg and drink.

I believe you'll make a good lager.

Addressing the pitch temp which is quite debatable depending on the camp you are in. I HAD to go to 65F to pitch yeast for a reason....

My source water is 85F, so I shift my Hydra IC to a recirc ice bath once I get near source water temps. I added a bag of ice to make a water bath and use a recirc pump in a closed loop system. Because all of my ice melted and I bottomed out at 65F, I went with that temp. IDEALLY, I would have brought it to 50F to pitch, but as explained, I didn't have another bag of ice to cool it more.

I have pitched at 65F as explained, I have pitched at 50F as explained. Can I tell a difference? Probably not so I didn't worry much over this. If you get it on down to 50ish pretty quickly, I expect you'll be just fine.

Since you will have lots of pilsner malts (I suppose), what is your mash and boil plan? This is a very critical part of a lager beer like this. Off flavors can develop unless you have a solid plan, which is what you are building now.

 

[slym2none]

What is your definition of "cold"? In terms of specific temps...

Not-ale temps. The low-end of the recommended range for the type of lager yeast.

 

[VladOfTrub]

Diacetyl rest is beat to death. The rest has become something assumed to be needed when Lager is produced. The rest is only a blow out patch which is used to increase the shelf life of the beer to a point that will allow the beer to be sold before the diacetyl returns. Brew the beer correctly and diacetyl isn't an issue. This is what happens. The yeast is raised to Ale temperature and it kicks in and becomes depleted and for that reason the beer is krausened when a diacetyl rest is performed.
When the beer is correctly produced, during lagering yeast absorbs maltotriose through the cell walls and glucose is expelled, fermented, and natural carbonation occurs. In order for the action to continue the beer is krausened when a diacetyl rest is performed. When Lager is produced with the single method, the wort is sugar imbalanced, containing primarily glucose and non-fermenting, sweet tasting sugar. The beer being produced from glucose has to be primed or artificially carbonated because yeast rips through glucose during first fermentation. Most home brewers do not employ a maltose rest so there is no need for a second fermentation vessel. During second fermentation a type of conversion occurs. Yeast absorbs maltose through the cell walls and it is converted into glucose. The glucose is expelled, fermented, and gravity decreases. Since, the beer is void of oxygen during second fermentation, the oxygen required for fermentation is contained within the molecular structure of the sugar. There are two types of Lager. Single infusion, homemade style Lager and Lager that isn't produced with single infusion. The brewer, according to the statement that home brewing can be taken to any level makes the decision on what method to use.
A brewer has very little control over the brewing process during the single method. It is a take what you get method controlled by Mother Nature and she doesn't care what a brewer produces or drinks.

 

[gubby]

Interesting replies.

In case y'all are interested our fermentation temps can be viewed here:

http://grantstbrewery.com/

We only have the capability to do single temperture mashing, so that's what we did. Sacc. rest at 151F. We then boiled for 75 minutes which should get rid of the DMS.

We pitched at 60F and the temp got down to 54F within a couple hours. The fermentation is holding steady at 54F and we were planning to do a diacetyl rest after primary. I'll have to take a closer read of Vlad's post here to think about that.

 

[Morrey]

Interesting replies.

In case y'all are interested our fermentation temps can be viewed here:

http://grantstbrewery.com/

We only have the capability to do single temperture mashing, so that's what we did. Sacc. rest at 151F. We then boiled for 75 minutes which should get rid of the DMS.

We pitched at 60F and the temp got down to 54F within a couple hours. The fermentation is holding steady at 54F and we were planning to do a diacetyl rest after primary. I'll have to take a closer read of Vlad's post here to think about that.

Thank you for sharing. Good info!

 

[oljimmy]

I just finished my first lager and it's probably the best beer I've done yet. Following some advice on Brulosophy, I fermented at 61F ambient and did the 3 day D-rest at 65, then slowly ramped down to 35F over 10 days before kegging. Gotta say, even though it was a "high" lager ferment at 61F ambient, the Saflager 34/70 didn't throw any noticable esters, there is no DMS worth speaking of, and it's crisp and clean as all hell. I think I'll switch to a 55F ferment for the next beer, but I am tentatively on the side of those unpopular folks who think that both ales and lagers are in good shape so long as you're below 70.