Lager help!

[worlddivides]

I've been brewing since 2014 at a pace of... early on 5 gallons of beer a month, sometimes 10 gallons of beer a month, and more recently 3 gallons of beer a month and sometimes 6 gallons of beer a month (though there were a few years in there where I took a break). In that entire time, I never once ever spilled yeast, dry or liquid. But today, when I was cutting open a package of dry yeast, I didn't think it was sliced down deep enough so I tried squeezing the edges to get it to open up (something I've done hundreds of times before) and it slipped out of my hand and landed on the chair. Probably 20% of the yeast fell out. I'm not about to put 20% of the yeast that's fallen on a chair and the ground into a fermenter, but I did put the remaining 80% in the fermenter. This has never happened to me before, and the first time it happened, it just HAD to be lager yeast where they usually recommend 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 packs instead of the 1 pack you need for an ale. I had already been planning on fermenting this at 59F, but I immediately changed my controller to 63F to hopefully make up for this, but will this be enough? Should I raise the temp higher? Say 66F? Even 68F? It's Fermentis S-23. Luckily the beer only has an OG of 1.038, but yeast calculators still say that one full pack isn't enough. Help!

 

[Halfakneecap]

I've been brewing since 2014 at a pace of... early on 5 gallons of beer a month, sometimes 10 gallons of beer a month, and more recently 3 gallons of beer a month and sometimes 6 gallons of beer a month (though there were a few years in there where I took a break). In that entire time, I never once ever spilled yeast, dry or liquid. But today, when I was cutting open a package of dry yeast, I didn't think it was sliced down deep enough so I tried squeezing the edges to get it to open up (something I've done hundreds of times before) and it slipped out of my hand and landed on the chair. Probably 20% of the yeast fell out. I'm not about to put 20% of the yeast that's fallen on a chair and the ground into a fermenter, but I did put the remaining 80% in the fermenter. This has never happened to me before, and the first time it happened, it just HAD to be lager yeast where they usually recommend 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 packs instead of the 1 pack you need for an ale. I had already been planning on fermenting this at 59F, but I immediately changed my controller to 63F to hopefully make up for this, but will this be enough? Should I raise the temp higher? Say 66F? Even 68F? It's Fermentis S-23. Luckily the beer only has an OG of 1.038, but yeast calculators still say that one full pack isn't enough. Help!

I use s23 at 15c, and it is great. Don't stress, unless it's over 1.045. Even then, let it ride

 

[worlddivides]

I use s23 at 15c, and it is great. Don't stress, unless it's over 1.045. Even then, let it ride

Thanks. So you think that me having the controller set to 17C (63F) should help make up for the loss of 15-20% of the yeast in the package? I've just been wondering whether I should raise the temp higher or if the yeast calculators assume a temp of say 45F / 7C and a temp in the 60s F / mid teens C should require quite a bit fewer yeast cells.

On the bright side, the expiration date listed on the package was early 2027 and I've kept it in the fridge since I bought it, so it should have pretty high viability at least.

If this had happened with, say, US-05, I wouldn't be worried at all, but since it is a lager yeast...

 

[dmtaylor]

The calculators are wrong -- overly conservative by about a factor of 2. You're fine with 80% of a pack, at any temperature. I'm not sure what temperature is best for S-23 but with such a low gravity beer you could ferment it cold and it will still turn out well.

 

[Bassman2003]

I did not get the batch size which is the most important determinant as to how much yeast you would need.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I won't change a thing. This is your chance to see if under pitching creates a huge difference, especially as much as you brew, probably a very familiar style to you.

 

[wdavis2003]

A 3 gallon batch of 1.038 OG wort? You'd probably be ok pitching a 1/3rd of the pack. It'll be fine

 

[worlddivides]

A 3 gallon batch of 1.038 OG wort? You'd probably be ok pitching a 1/3rd of the pack. It'll be fine

It's 3 gallons in the keg, but 3.4 gallons in the fermenter.

But I think you guys are definitely right that those calculators are INSANELY overly conservative. I just got home from dinner with my wife at a nice Italian restaurant and then a craft beer bar, and I already have airlock activity (and that was at 64F at 6 hours after pitching).

 

[worlddivides]

I won't change a thing. This is your chance to see if under pitching creates a huge difference, especially as much as you brew, probably a very familiar style to you.

I've done more than 100 gallons of West Coast IPAs, but I'm relatively new to lagers in general, though the West Coast Pilsner I made back in December was described by my wife as better than any commercial lager she'd ever had, so I have that going for me, I guess.

 

[worlddivides]

I did not get the batch size which is the most important determinant as to how much yeast you would need.

3.4 gallons.

 

[worlddivides]

The calculators are wrong -- overly conservative by about a factor of 2. You're fine with 80% of a pack, at any temperature. I'm not sure what temperature is best for S-23 but with such a low gravity beer you could ferment it cold and it will still turn out well.

Glad to hear. I don't plan to do the 68F-72F warm-fermenting of lagers I see a lot of folks doing, but I do plan to do warmer than I've done before (probably 63-65F) just to be on the safe side. I've seen quite a few folks talk about being unable to tell the difference between a lager fermented at 55F or 65-68F, so fingers crossed about that here. I definitely agree that it feels like the estimates those calculators give is pretty crazy. Two or three packs of lager yeast for a relatively low gravity beer seems odd to me, even with the idea that lager yeast needs more cells than ale yeasts.

 

[Bassman2003]

If this had happened with, say, US-05, I wouldn't be worried at all, but since it is a lager yeast...

Temperature and batch size (amount of wort to ferment) are the most important factors regarding under pitching of yeast. Yeast is yeast pretty much, ale or lager. If you pitch a lager yeast at a warm temperature it will ferment quickly. Lager yeast just are capable of working well at lower temperatures as well.

But, when it comes to lager brewing, how it completes fermentation is more important. This is where pitching enough yeast is important. Also where higher temperature can help you out (at the risk of more esters outside of lager type flavor).

My advice for lagers is always more yeast. You want to gang up and kill it. As an experiment, I would suggest pitching two packs of yeast next time for your 3+ gallon batch and lowering the temperature into the 50's to see if anything is different or better.

 

[worlddivides]

Temperature and batch size (amount of wort to ferment) are the most important factors regarding under pitching of yeast. Yeast is yeast pretty much, ale or lager. If you pitch a lager yeast at a warm temperature it will ferment quickly. Lager yeast just are capable of working well at lower temperatures as well.

But, when it comes to lager brewing, how it completes fermentation is more important. This is where pitching enough yeast is important. Also where higher temperature can help you out (at the risk of more esters outside of lager type flavor).

My advice for lagers is always more yeast. You want to gang up and kill it. As an experiment, I would suggest pitching two packs of yeast next time for your 3+ gallon batch and lowering the temperature into the 50's to see if anything is different or better.

My previous lager was fermented at 57F-59F and I had planned on fermenting this one at 59F, but I guess this will be an experiment to see how well this yeast does in the 60s.

 

[wdavis2003]

It's 3 gallons in the keg, but 3.4 gallons in the fermenter.

But I think you guys are definitely right that those calculators are INSANELY overly conservative. I just got home from dinner with my wife at a nice Italian restaurant and then a craft beer bar, and I already have airlock activity (and that was at 64F at 6 hours after pitching).

I'd follow the recommended pitching instructions on the pack of yeast. Can't remember exactly what they say but 80% is more then enough in your case. Liquid yeast you probably want to build a starter or pitch multiple packs.

My previous lager was fermented at 57F-59F and I had planned on fermenting this one at 59F, but I guess this will be an experiment to see how well this yeast does in the 60s.

I've fermented at 80 under pressure and it turned out very well!

 

[worlddivides]

I'd follow the recommended pitching instructions on the pack of yeast. Can't remember exactly what they say but 80% is more then enough in your case. Liquid yeast you probably want to build a starter or pitch multiple packs.

Right. I definitely would build a starter if I was working with liquid yeast. With ale yeasts, sometimes that was a bit of a pain, so I'd just pitch two containers of liquid yeast, but with lager yeast, I'd probably build a starter.

On the bright side, even with a roughly 20% reduction in yeast, I still got airlock activity within 5-6 hours and it's currently fermenting at 63F.

 

[worlddivides]

I won't make the claim that this is the first beer I've ever made where sulfur was produced, but it's definitely the first where I've noticed a sulfuric smell. And interestingly enough, the first 3 days of fermentation did not have any sulfuric smell, but today it's this massive rotten eggs smell. As far as I'm aware, the compounds that make that smell are extremely volatile and generally don't end up in the final beer unless you bottle or keg before they've dissipated. I've also read that sulfur can be considered a desirable character in a lot of lagers, but I generally don't think of "sulfur" as something I want in my beer (same with diacetyl).

One thing I do wonder is if there even if a need for a diacetyl rest when I'm fermenting at 63F to 64F. I know that a ton of people who do diacetyl rests on traditional lagers will ferment at, say, 50F and then raise to 62-65F for the diacetyl rest, but I've also seen people just act as if a diacetyl rest is just an increase in temperature, so someone who warm ferments a lager at 68F would just, what, raise the temp to 72F at the end? Wondering whether I should raise the temp to 66-68F or just keep it at 63-64F now that airlock activity is slowing down quite a bit.

 

[dmtaylor]

In my experience, it makes little if any difference whether you do a higher temperature rest near end of fermentation, or do not -- the beer will be clean and ready to drink on its own time scale, not ours. Sometimes it's ready right away. Sometimes it needs 2, 3, 4 weeks. The one important thing to learn about lagers is PATIENCE, regardless of whatever variables we want to throw at it.

 

[worlddivides]

In my experience, it makes little if any difference whether you do a higher temperature rest near end of fermentation, or do not -- the beer will be clean and ready to drink on its own time scale, not ours. Sometimes it's ready right away. Sometimes it needs 2, 3, 4 weeks. The one important thing to learn about lagers is PATIENCE, regardless of whatever variables we want to throw at it.

It's one of the reasons why I started brewing this when my keg is already mostly full. I won't even be able to transfer it from the fermenter to the keg until the beer that's currently in there is gone, so I plan to keep the temp in the 60s until there is zero diacetyl or sulfur, then cold crash it and keep it at lagering temps until the keg frees up, then transfer it to the keg where I'll keep it at fridge temps while carbing. And if it feels like it still needs more time, it can just lager in the keg.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I won't make the claim that this is the first beer I've ever made where sulfur was produced, but it's definitely the first where I've noticed a sulfuric smell. And interestingly enough, the first 3 days of fermentation did not have any sulfuric smell, but today it's this massive rotten eggs smell. As far as I'm aware, the compounds that make that smell are extremely volatile and generally don't end up in the final beer unless you bottle or keg before they've dissipated. I've also read that sulfur can be considered a desirable character in a lot of lagers, but I generally don't think of "sulfur" as something I want in my beer (same with diacetyl).

One thing I do wonder is if there even if a need for a diacetyl rest when I'm fermenting at 63F to 64F. I know that a ton of people who do diacetyl rests on traditional lagers will ferment at, say, 50F and then raise to 62-65F for the diacetyl rest, but I've also seen people just act as if a diacetyl rest is just an increase in temperature, so someone who warm ferments a lager at 68F would just, what, raise the temp to 72F at the end? Wondering whether I should raise the temp to 66-68F or just keep it at 63-64F now that airlock activity is slowing down quite a bit.

I brew lagers every summer and i don't think i've done a D rest for 20 years, and even then i didn't think i needed to, in particular with lagers fermented cold. Maybe the early days when i would pitch lager yeast warm, and then refridgerate the beers. Once i started pitching cold and enough yeast, no problems.

These days i use S189 ( super clean ), S23 ( light esters ) or sometimes the whitelabs Mex lager yeast ( cold ) and don't ever do a D rest.

 

[worlddivides]

I brew lagers every summer and i don't think i've done a D rest for 20 years, and even then i didn't think i needed to, in particular with lagers fermented cold. Maybe the early days when i would pitch lager yeast warm, and then refridgerate the beers. Once i started pitching cold and enough yeast, no problems.

These days i use S189 ( super clean ), S23 ( light esters ) or sometimes the whitelabs Mex lager yeast ( cold ) and don't ever do a D rest.

Good to hear. In that case, I'll only do a diacetyl rest if I taste any diacetyl in it during my first gravity test.

 

[Bassman2003]

It all about the yeast health at the end of fermentation. See my post above about pitching enough cells. Drastic raising of the temperature is an attempt to help along tired yeast to consume off flavors. If you have strong healthy yeast at the end, they do not need any "help" consuming the unwanted byproducts. In the end, tired yeast is tired yeast.

Homebrewers very often underpitch lagers. If you want better lagers, pitch more yeast. The flavor of ales is more about what is in the beer and the flavor of lagers is what is not in there.

 

[worlddivides]

It all about the yeast health at the end of fermentation. See my post above about pitching enough cells. Drastic raising of the temperature is an attempt to help along tired yeast to consume off flavors. If you have strong healthy yeast at the end, they do not need any "help" consuming the unwanted byproducts. In the end, tired yeast is tired yeast.

Homebrewers very often underpitch lagers. If you want better lagers, pitch more yeast. The flavor of ales is more about what is in the beer and the flavor of lagers is what is not in there.

It's a West Coast Pilsner, so it's more about tons and tons of hoppy aroma and flavor with whirlpool hopping and keg hopping, so it's pretty much the opposite of the most popular kind of traditional lager with, say, just a single small 60 minute bittering addition and maybe a subtle late aroma addition. The bitterness is still within Pilsner territory, though on the high end, but the hoppiness is to the extreme (though I'm not doing any dry hopping other than the keg hopping just because I want to give the beer time to develop and don't want to risk vegetal hop flavors developing in the fermenter).

That said, the fact that I only pitched 80% of a single dry pack is what had me worried in this thread and why I decided to try to ferment slightly higher than I had originally planned. I always add yeast nutrient (Servomyces most commonly) and do everything possible to keep the yeast happy, but the fact that yeast calculators always say you need so many cells for lagers does tend to worry me.

As much as I enjoy drinking lots of different kinds of lagers, I've never had any interest in brewing any of them until I started thinking about the super hoppy modern ones like Italian Pilsners, West Coast Pilsners, IPLs, "Cold IPAs" (as much as I dislike the name), and so on. Maybe someday I might brew a Marzen, but that might be the extent of it.

 

[worlddivides]

I tested it 8 days after pitching the yeast and there was no diacetyl or sulfur in the smell or flavor. It's only 78% apparent attenuation, though, so I think it can still probably fall at least one more point, possibly a few more. The flavor is surprisingly clean for having been fermented at 63F with a massive underpitch according to the yeast calculators. I'm thinking of leaving it around 63F for at least another week, check the gravity again, and then probably dropping it to lagering temps until my keg kicks. Since the yeast has already cleaned up diacetyl and sulfur, I'm mainly just waiting to see if the gravity can drop lower. It was 1.008 when I tested it, but I feel like it might be able to get to 1.006 or so. My last lager, brewed with W-34/70 got down to 1.004 for 89% apparent attenuation. I don't expect that with this beer, but I do feel like it can probably still go a little lower.

 

[worlddivides]

I took another gravity reading and it got even lower than I had expected. 1.005 for an apparent attenuation of 86%. Not quite the 89% of my last lager with 34/70, but still way more than I expected.

It has a very clean and pleasant flavor. At this point, I can say that I will probably end up preferring 34/70, but it's not quite as "fruity" and "estery" as I had heard, even when fermented at 63F (or maybe BECAUSE it was fermented at 63F since I saw a lot of people online theorizing that S-23 is more fruity at lower fermentation temps and less fruity at the higher end of its fermentation range). That's not to say that there are zero esters. It's just very subtle and low key (while 34/70 had basically zero esters whatsoever). I do feel like the malt is a bit more pronounced with S-23 than it was with W-34/70, and they both were 100% Pilsner malt with starting gravities of 1.038 (but with 34/70 having an FG of 1.004 and S-23 having an FG of 1.005). I do plan to heavily keg hop this beer at a rate of 6.5 grams of hops per liter, so the very little fruitiness that I do get will probably be blown away by the hoppiness. Right now with just the single bittering addition and one whirlpool addition, I do get a pleasant crisp hoppy bite, which I expect should stick out more after some lagering and cold conditioning. Looking forward to this one.

At least so far, there don't seem to be any negative sides to the underpitching of lager yeast.