Lactobaccillus - When to add?

[Soma]

Tomorrow I'll be brewing my first ever sour beer - a blonde ale near 1.068, fermented with wyeast 3522 and 5335. As I see it, I have a couple of options for dealing with these two cultures.

1. Brew the blonde normally, pitch 3522 starter, wait 3-4 days until fermentation is near completion and then pitch lacto culture.

2. Brew the blonde normally, split it into 2 batches (maybe 4g / 1g), ferment the two cultures independently, then blend together to taste.

Any advice on which of these methods is preferred?

 

[passedpawn]

I would do it like my berliner wiesse. I'd add the lacto first, then the sacc 2 days later.

Here's the various ways I've made sour beers. Mixed successes, so weigh my thoughts accordingly:

I've done berliner weisse (4 batches), flanders red (2 batches), and now a flanders brown (split - 2 batches).

BW: I added the lacto (delbruckii) first, then 1 day later added sacc. The berliner weisse never got very sour. Been about a year. Next time I'll wait at least 3 days before I add the sacc.

F. Red: Pitched Roeselare blend from the beginning. Got VERY sour within a month. Both batches.

The F. Brown is a split batch. I've added roeselare & sacc at the same time to one of them. The other one only got the sacc, and will get the roeselare once initial ferment is done. Looking to have a very sour and barely sour, then blend as necessary. We'll see.

 

[octo]

blending would probably be better, what about a sour mash?

 

[Soma]

I would do it like my berliner wiesse. I'd add the lacto first, then the sacc 2 days later.

Here's the various ways I've made sour beers. Mixed successes, so weigh my thoughts accordingly:

I've done berliner weisse (4 batches), flanders red (2 batches), and now a flanders brown (split - 2 batches).

BW: I added the lacto (delbruckii) first, then 1 day later added sacc. The berliner weisse never got very sour. Been about a year. Next time I'll wait at least 3 days before I add the sacc.

F. Red: Pitched Roeselare blend from the beginning. Got VERY sour within a month. Both batches.

The F. Brown is a split batch. I've added roeselare & sacc at the same time to one of them. The other one only got the sacc, and will get the roeselare once initial ferment is done. Looking to have a very sour and barely sour, then blend as necessary. We'll see.

So you think adding a lacto culture 3 days before the sacc. would be quite sour?

 

[passedpawn]

So you think adding a lacto culture 3 days before the sacc. would be quite sour?

Yep, that's what I would do. I'm no expert. I just started making them a year ago.

Check the good sites for sour info, namely

HBT's OldSock Blog: The Mad Fermentationist

BabbleBelt

 

[Soma]

Awesome links, thanks a lot. When I first fell in love with Kriek I was told "welcome to the dark side." They were right...

 

[Airborneguy]

Passedpawn, have you ever made your own lacto starter, aka, from scratch using grains? I've been working on one over the last few days for a berliner weisse and I'm looking for some input. I believe it is working, but this is new to me.

 

[passedpawn]

Passedpawn, have you ever made your own lacto starter, aka, from scratch using grains? I've been working on one over the last few days for a berliner weisse and I'm looking for some input. I believe it is working, but this is new to me.

Nope. I thought about it, and I'll probably give it a go some day, but I got scared off by some of the failures I read about ("my beer tastes like vomit"). I love the parsimony in getting the lacto from the grains.

I did grow wild yeast from juniper berries once, and that was semi-successful, but a different topic.

 

[Airborneguy]

Well I seem to be the test case here because no one responded to my query earlier in the week. I stepped my starter up yesterday and am using an aquarium heater to keep it at 100ºF. There is already a huge, bubbling pellicle on top of the wort. I'm loving looking at it. Should it smell like anything? I smell it fairly frequently and it seems to be different every time. I haven't decided if I am going to use 1056 or a Kolsch yeast after the Lacto does its thing for a few days.

 

[passedpawn]

Well I seem to be the test case here because no one responded to my query earlier in the week. I stepped my starter up yesterday and am using an aquarium heater to keep it at 100ºF. There is already a huge, bubbling pellicle on top of the wort. I'm loving looking at it. Should it smell like anything? I smell it fairly frequently and it seems to be different every time. I haven't decided if I am going to use 1056 or a Kolsch yeast after the Lacto does its thing for a few days.

ABG, check out this thread. I think Kristen England has the right idea. His first post on the subject is about the 8th in this thread (he's "mashweasel"). Continue through the thread... there's lots of good discussion. He recommends a 7 day ferment, then priming bottles with more lacto (save some!) then long term storage somewhere very warm. Read it here:

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43587

 

[octo]

Well I seem to be the test case here because no one responded to my query earlier in the week. I stepped my starter up yesterday and am using an aquarium heater to keep it at 100ºF. There is already a huge, bubbling pellicle on top of the wort. I'm loving looking at it. Should it smell like anything? I smell it fairly frequently and it seems to be different every time. I haven't decided if I am going to use 1056 or a Kolsch yeast after the Lacto does its thing for a few days.

Ive built up a lacto starter from grains. There really was no "vomit" or off smell to it, it was just a tart smell.

 

[Airborneguy]

I'm mostly getting tart, then musty, then nothing, then sweet. I'm going to take a picture when I get home. It had a crazy pellicle this morning when I left for work.

 

[Airborneguy]

Passed, thanks for the link. I'm not sure if I am going to go with a no-boil tecnique, but I cut a bunch of other tips from that discussion and emailed them to myself. I am definitely going to do at least one, possibly two decoction steps. I brewing this staurday at an art/beer event so I will take some pictures and let you all know how it goes.

 

[passedpawn]

Passed, thanks for the link. I'm not sure if I am going to go with a no-boil tecnique, but I cut a bunch of other tips from that discussion and emailed them to myself. I am definitely going to do at least one, possibly two decoction steps. I brewing this staurday at an art/beer event so I will take some pictures and let you all know how it goes.

Very cool - I'll be looking for those pics. I have a BW thread on here somewhere that I have to update with pics at some point too. I head off to Germany Sunday - hope to find some of the real stuff, fresh, while I'm there.

 

[Airborneguy]

It smells very tart and fruity today and looks better than ever. I can't wait to brew this beer!

 

[whahoppened]

Yep, that's what I would do. I'm no expert. I just started making them a year ago.

Check the good sites for sour info, namely

HBT's OldSock Blog: The Mad Fermentationist

BabbleBelt

When you guys mention the time that passed between adding the lacto and adding the sacc., do you mean the time since *pitching* the lacto, or the time since the observed start of the lacto activity?

I pitched lacto on a Berliner Weisse on I brewed Friday, not much happened Saturday, now things are really getting busy. Part of me wants to pitch sacc. now for fear that there won't be many fermentables left for it if I wait till tomorrow. Any thoughts?

 

[passedpawn]

When you guys mention the time that passed between adding the lacto and adding the sacc., do you mean the time since *pitching* the lacto, or the time since the observed start of the lacto activity?

I pitched lacto on a Berliner Weisse on I brewed Friday, not much happened Saturday, now things are really getting busy. Part of me wants to pitch sacc. now for fear that there won't be many fermentables left for it if I wait till tomorrow. Any thoughts?

Days between pitching. I had full raging fermentation from the lacto in 24 hrs.

 

[Airborneguy]

Same here.

Take a look at it now (1 min ago):

 

[passedpawn]

Same here.

Take a look at it now (1 min ago):

Woah.

 

[Native302]

So how do you do a lacto starter from grains?

 

[JNish]

Airborneguy, that is insane pellicle. For some reason, I'm not getting anything from my lacto that I pitched into a berliner weisse brewed last Saturday (4 days ago). I pitched a vial of lacto directly into the fermentor, no starter, so that's probably why it's taking so long. So far, the only sign of activity is a light colored layer on top and a little bit a noticeable bacterial growth where at the corner of the wort/air/glass. I am holding out to pitch the sacc until I see a noticeable pellicle but my patience is wearing thin. Did you pitch the two together or are you letting the lacto work first?

 

[Airborneguy]

The Lacto worked alone for about 72 hrs before I pitched the yeast. I used Wyeast's Kolsch strain.