LACTO info

[SanPancho]

Hey all- so I wanted to see if we have any sort of best practices/guidelines regarding Lacto, both cultured and natural.

Are there cell count guidelines for,pitching rates?

Are they as delicate as yeast with regarding to temperature fluctuations for bringing up to room temp, starter production, pitch temp, etc?

Based on white labs/wyeast vials I've seen they appear to flocculate, so can you set aside a portion of wort, crash and decant the lacto like we do with yeast? (For reuse later)

If you natural lacto your beers, what malt do you use? 2 row, pils, malted wheat? Whole or milled?


What's you ratio of grains to wort?

 

[stpug]

I think pitching rates are all over the board for a variety of reasons, particularly the point at which you pitch your lacto in relation to other microbes.

Lacto seem to have a similar living temperature range as brewers yeast. Their optimal working range tends to be elevated though. I have not experienced negative effects from reasonable temperature swings - just a slowing or quickening of their activity.

Yes, you can crash and decant lacto but you will likely need to give it extra time for crashing (double or triple the time) because it tends to flocculate much more slowly.

Natural lacto I've done with avangard pilsner and avangard pale ale. Both worked about equally. Milled once, whole three times. The milled worked the best but that may have just been "luck". Ratios were about 1/2 cup grains to 1 quart low gravity starter.

Most recently have used L Plantarum from Swanson Vitamins (5 caps in 5 gallons) and the fermentation was impressive.

 

[Warthaug]

What are you trying to do with the lacto - co-ferment with yeast, sour mash/kettle, all-lacto beer? The answers to your question vary with each, and the style of beer you are looking to brew.

A few general points:

1. Lacto is hardy, and can be abused a fair bit without complaint. They are more pH and temperature tolerant than yeast.
2. Lacto's preferred temp range is warm, warm, warm - peak activity is in the range of 37-42C (98-170F), and most will retain some activity down to about 15C/58F.
3. Lacto's come in heterofermentive (make a mix of lactic acid and something else - usually ethanol) and homofermentive (make lactic acid only). Hetero's are what are commonly sold by yeast labs, but homofermenters tend to acidify faster and produce fewer off-flavours.
4. Natural lacto can be harvested from a number of sources - lighter malts are best, if using grain. Yoghurt and pro-biotic pills are often used as sources. Women's private parts have a lot of lacto...how you gather that is your problem... Regardless of the source, it is best to make a starter first (1.040 wort, no hops) and culture the lacto at a warm temp without stirring. Make sure it smells good (lactic & clean) before you pitch it into beer - that way you'll avoid the risk of throwing something awful into your beer.

In terms of pitch rates, the answer varies greatly:

1. If doing a Beriner Weisse style beer (i.e. lacto + yeast; no other bugs) and are adding the lacto and yeast at the same time, you typically want to pitch 5-10X the lacto as yeast. Otherwise, you won't get much sourness. Ferment at normal ale temps.
2. If making a more conventional sour beer, where you expect to have pedio present, a 1:1 or lower rate of lacto is best. Again, ferment at normal ale temps.
3. For sour mashing/worting, people rarely bother counting, but using an ~1 L (~1 quart) starter per 20L (5 US gallon) batch will give you good souring in a reasonable amount of time, assuming you keep the temp up above 37C/98F. There are a lot of good guides out there on sour mashing/ketteling, so I won't say more here.

Hope that helps

Bryan

 

[Calder]

[*]Lacto's preferred temp range is warm, warm, warm - peak activity is in the range of 37-42C (98-170F), and most will retain some activity down to about 15C/58F.

I hope that is an error, I assume you meant 107.

Actually if you run it above 110 F, (or is it 112 F), you can avoid clostridium being activated if you are using grain. Never tried it, just heard it - plan to try it sometime.

Regardless of the source, it is best to make a starter first (1.040 wort, no hops) and culture the lacto at a warm temp without stirring. Make sure it smells good (lactic & clean) before you pitch it into beer - that way you'll avoid the risk of throwing something awful into your beer.

I'm not a fan of starters for lacto. I think it just makes the process take longer (2 vs 1 lag phase). But I do see the benefit if you are not sure of the viability of the source. You can use apple juice instead of making up some wort for a starter.

[*]If doing a Beriner Weisse style beer (i.e. lacto + yeast; no other bugs) and are adding the lacto and yeast at the same time, you typically want to pitch 5-10X the lacto as yeast. Otherwise, you won't get much sourness. Ferment at normal ale temps.

I would always recommend people just pitch the lacto without the yeast until it is as sour as they went it to be. Then pitch the yeast. If the yeast takes off too quickly, the lacto may never sour.

A lot of lacto strains are inhibited by hops. When I do a BW, I only use hops as dry hops. I never have them in the wort.

 

[Warthaug]

I hope that is an error, I assume you meant 107.

The imperial system is a mystery to me - you could tell me that 42C is 1,270F and I'd only be modestly suspicious.

Actually if you run it above 110 F, (or is it 112 F), you can avoid clostridium being activated if you are using grain. Never tried it, just heard it - plan to try it sometime.

However, not all lacto strains survive that hot of temperatures. Most of the ones used conventionally in brewing will, but if using alternate sources (yoghurt, etc), there are no guarantees. 37-42C will work for all species of lactobacilli which would grow in wort.

I'm not a fan of starters for lacto. I think it just makes the process take longer (2 vs 1 lag phase). But I do see the benefit if you are not sure of the viability of the source. You can use apple juice instead of making up some wort for a starter.

If you're growing from grain or another source you need a starter; it ensures a clean start (i.e. you can dump a bad one) and gets your lacto numbers upto a point where you can sour mash/kettle in a reasonable amount of time. I prefer wort as a starter, as it induces the expression of the maltose symporter (required to ferment maltose), thus prepping the lacto for beer production. Apple juice is all simple sugars, and doesn't have that activity.

I would always recommend people just pitch the lacto without the yeast until it is as sour as they went it to be. Then pitch the yeast. If the yeast takes off too quickly, the lacto may never sour.

I'd recommend using a pitching schedule compatible with the style of beer being brewed; sour beers have been brewed successfully for millennia without separate pitches...but there are cases where separate pitches are useful.

A lot of lacto strains are inhibited by hops. When I do a BW, I only use hops as dry hops. I never have them in the wort.

Again, hop rates depend on style and bugs used. I have a lacto that's good upto at least 25IBU (I've never gone higher as bitter + sour isn't exactly nice); while other strains will crap out at just 2 or 3.

B