Lacking Efficiency

[Aloha_Brew]

I do believe I am missing something in my brewing methods. I use Brew Pal and compare it with Beer Calculus and find that my average runs about 60% efficiency. Where to start...

My setup for all-grain is a standard cooler for a mashtun with a steel-mesh strainer that drains out the wort, through the original drain port, by tubing into my boil pot. I measure temps with both a digital and analog thermometer and for my last few batches have remained steady around 148 degrees; losing only a degree after 90 minutes. I then batch sparge with my Pyrex pitcher with water around 170 degrees.

However, I recently did an extract brew and got about 60% for my efficiency. I simply steeped the specialty grains at 150 degrees in 5 gallons, added some of the extract to start, boiled for 45 minutes, then added the remainder in the last 15 minutes. Here were my last two recipes:

Liquid pale extract-7lbs
Victory-1.5lbs
Biscuit-1lb
Carafoam-.75lbs
Carafa II-.25lbs

2 row-12lbs
Crystal 20-2.5lbs
CaraPils-2lbs

Brew Pal measured both at 60-65%. Beer Calculus measured the extract at less than 40% and the all-grain at 63%. I measure my OG right before I pitch my yeast using a glass tube analog refractometer at about 70 degrees. I also understand steeping is not the same as mashing (something about the over-abundance of water not allowing the enzymes to focus on the grains or some such) and so a lower efficiency calculated for the extract would be expected. However, I've done 6 all-grain batches so far and had 4 at the 60-65 range and my first two at around 70. Those first two were just dumb luck though because I kept opening my cooler to add more hot water and stir (as I thought I should).

I'm going to research more over the next week or so but I wanted some words of wisdom from those who know how to get higher efficiencies. I use the brew calculators to figure how much water I need to use for my mash, usually staying within about 80% of target measurements I figure.

I also wanted to pose a couple questions. If I recycle my mash wort, using it to sparge instead of fresh water, am I going to increase my efficiency? And if I boil the wort for longer than 90 minutes then water evaporation should cause the measured gravity to be higher, correct? Or am I totally misunderstanding the correlation between efficiency and OG? Thanks for bearing with my lengthy rant.

 

[MalFet]

I think you are misunderstanding some core concepts here. The extract recipe you listed wasn't mashed, but steeped. Efficiency doesn't apply. This has nothing to do with water quantities, but instead enzyme quantities.

Furthermore, efficiency has nothing to do with how much you boil. You could boil your wort until it's a thick syrup, and your efficiency wouldn't change a single point. Efficiency as it is conventionally defined is a measurement of how much sugar you get from the grain into your brew kettle. It has nothing to do with how much or how little water goes along with it. Recycling your mash wort would decrease your efficiency, not increase it.

Those things aside, and assuming you are still getting an efficiency you aren't happy with: We can throw random guesses at you about where your efficiency limitations are, but you really should use a process like the one outlined by Kaiser to pinpoint exactly where your numbers are good and where they are poor.

 

[broadbill]

Unfortunately, you can't really compare what you are getting for partial mash/steeping with what is going on in your AG batches. Its an apples to oranges comparison. So forget that.

Let's focus on your AG batches. What is your process exactly, starting from whole grain and going to the boil? In that set of processes is where you are going to find where you are losing efficiency. Also, the AG equipment may have some effect on efficiency as well.

It is interesting that your efficiency shot up when you added water incrementally throughout your mash. This tells me something might be wrong with your sparge technique. I'll be interested to see if that is the case, when you describe your process.

Also, "recycling" your mash wort, instead of using fresh water to sparge, is not going to increase your efficiency. Sparging is the process of washing the sugars out of the grain bed. If you are using a liquid that already has sugars dissolved in it (i.e. wort) then that wash/sparge will be less efficient. That is why the standard procedure is to sparge with 170F water only.

It sounds is if you are confusing the sparge with "mash recirculation" which is another thing entirely.

Yes, boiling wort longer makes for a higher gravity because you are boiling off the water, leaving the sugars behind in the pot. Therefore, the concentration of sugars increases as you are basically decreasing the volume by boiling.

Hope this helps, post your exact AG process, step-by-step, and I think you'll have some good ideas to look into.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

My process is as follows:

1) boil about 10 gallons of water, or more if recommended
2) place the mash water in my cooler and stir until it reaches about 160 degrees
3) dump all grains into the water and stir constantly for about 5 minutes, or until temp reaches target (usually around 148).
4) close the lid and wait 90 minutes.
5) stir the grains before opening valve to drain wort into my pot.
6) close valve and add sparge water at 170 degrees with my 4 cup pitcher until target volume is reached.
7) stir grains again before opening valve again to drain wort into my pot.

I always end up with about 6.5-7 gallons in my pot for boiling. I have my 5-5.5 gallon marked for evaporation purposes and reach my target OG if I reach that area. I understand a little better now that efficiency is measured in other ways than OG comparison with grain bed. I'll look into that my next brew.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

Ok...did the Kaiser method and came up with the following:

Measured my wort straight after the lauter and it measured 1.058. The table on the webpage indicated that I should have had a SG of 1.0622 @ 100% efficiency for the mash.

I had 19lbs of grain and used 5.2 gallons of water for the mash and 4.5 gal for the sparge. It is a more potent version of the second grain bill I mentioned, using Crystal 40 in place of the 20, using Pilsen in place of the CaraPils, and adding an additional 2.5 lbs of Vienna.

Using the gravity based efficiency formula I came up with 98.35% efficiency; having a max gravity of 1.091 and an actual gravity of 1.073. However, Beer Calculus comes up with about 53% mash efficiency and Brew Pal with about 56%.

Using the spreadsheet from the braukaiser.com site mentioned previously I get the following using an exctraction value of 75% between all the grains and 1 run-off (which technically it was with the combined amount of water):
Brewhouse Efficiency = 66%
Theoretical Lauter Efficiency = 70%
Extraction Efficiency = 94%

So, if I'm not too confused here I should have expected better Brewhouse Efficiency with my process and Brew Pal and Beer Calculator are fairly worthwhile as far as basic measurements go...???

I'm still not sure why my numbers are so low, though. Anyone else use these formulas or programs with a similar result, or those who use different ones come up with similar results using my grain bill??? Granted, my numbers are fairly consistent around 60-65% overall efficiency, and this is a big batch, but I'd like to reach my target OG at least once during my all grain experience...without it being by accident.

 

[MalFet]

Ok...did the Kaiser method and came up with the following:

Measured my wort straight after the lauter and it measured 1.058. The table on the webpage indicated that I should have had a SG of 1.0622 @ 100% efficiency for the mash.

I had 19lbs of grain and used 5.2 gallons of water for the mash and 4.5 gal for the sparge. It is a more potent version of the second grain bill I mentioned, using Crystal 40 in place of the 20, using Pilsen in place of the CaraPils, and adding an additional 2.5 lbs of Vienna.

Using the gravity based efficiency formula I came up with 98.35% efficiency; having a max gravity of 1.091 and an actual gravity of 1.073. However, Beer Calculus comes up with about 53% mash efficiency and Brew Pal with about 56%.

Using the spreadsheet from the braukaiser.com site mentioned previously I get the following using an exctraction value of 75% between all the grains and 1 run-off (which technically it was with the combined amount of water):
Brewhouse Efficiency = 66%
Theoretical Lauter Efficiency = 70%
Extraction Efficiency = 94%

So, if I'm not too confused here I should have expected better Brewhouse Efficiency with my process and Brew Pal and Beer Calculator are fairly worthwhile as far as basic measurements go...???

I'm still not sure why my numbers are so low, though. Anyone else use these formulas or programs with a similar result, or those who use different ones come up with similar results using my grain bill??? Granted, my numbers are fairly consistent around 60-65% overall efficiency, and this is a big batch, but I'd like to reach my target OG at least once during my all grain experience...without it being by accident.

Based on what you have listed here, your gravity at lauter should have been much higher. I suspect that you are still misunderstanding how these calculations work and are therefore entering wrong values into the calculators. All of the ones you listed are accurate.

Here's the math:

You have 19lb of grain, for simplicity let's assume that it all has a sugar value of 36ppg. That means you have a total sugar potential of 684.

Divide this by the total volume that went into your boil kettle, and you have your theoretical maximum gravity. Whatever you actually get is your proportional efficiency.

What table are you talking about on Kaiser's website? If you mashed with 5.2 gallons of water, that's 1.1 quarts/pound (which is slightly low, but should still work if you didn't get stuck). Your first wort should have had a gravity near 1.106 or so. Did you check this?

 

[broadbill]

What table are you talking about on Kaiser's website? If you mashed with 5.2 gallons of water, that's 1.1 quarts/pound (which is slightly low, but should still work if you didn't get stuck). Your first wort should have had a gravity near 1.106 or so. Did you check this?

He is talking about the mash conversion efficiency info/table on Kaiser's website, but he says his sample was from wort after after sparge/lautering. That isn't the right sample to measure for this....He needs to take a sample of the mash pre-sparge (i.e. right out of the mash-tun) to get an indication of his mash conversion efficiency.

 

[broadbill]

my comments in blue

Ok...did the Kaiser method and came up with the following:

Measured my wort straight after the lauter and it measured 1.058. The table on the webpage indicated that I should have had a SG of 1.0622 @ 100% efficiency for the mash. You took what sounds like a pre-boil gravity reading and used it to determine mash efficiency. You didn't do this right, but for right now I wouldn't worry about mash/conversion efficiency.

I had 19lbs of grain and used 5.2 gallons of water for the mash and 4.5 gal for the sparge. It is a more potent version of the second grain bill I mentioned, using Crystal 40 in place of the 20, using Pilsen in place of the CaraPils, and adding an additional 2.5 lbs of Vienna.

Keep in mind that you are mashing alot of grains, so brewhouse efficiency tends to be lower...this is because you are constrained on the amount of water you can use for the mash and the sparge, and still get a workable pre-boil volume.



Using the gravity based efficiency formula I came up with 98.35% efficiency; having a max gravity of 1.091 and an actual gravity of 1.073. However, Beer Calculus comes up with about 53% mash efficiency and Brew Pal with about 56%.

I would urge you to learn how to calculate efficiency by hand, so that you can learn what goes into the calculation is made. MalFet showed you how, but if you want to post your recipe and the volumes you use, we can do it for each step of your recipe.

Using the spreadsheet from the braukaiser.com site mentioned previously I get the following using an exctraction value of 75% between all the grains and 1 run-off (which technically it was with the combined amount of water):
Brewhouse Efficiency = 66%
Theoretical Lauter Efficiency = 70%
Extraction Efficiency = 94%

So, if I'm not too confused here I should have expected better Brewhouse Efficiency with my process and Brew Pal and Beer Calculator are fairly worthwhile as far as basic measurements go...???

yeah, I would predict a brewhouse efficiency of around 66% since you are mashing alot of grains and doing a high-gravity recipe, based upon the scant information you provided about your process...it sounds close.



I'm still not sure why my numbers are so low, though. Anyone else use these formulas or programs with a similar result, or those who use different ones come up with similar results using my grain bill??? Granted, my numbers are fairly consistent around 60-65% overall efficiency, and this is a big batch, but I'd like to reach my target OG at least once during my all grain experience...without it being by accident.

I would propose that we actually figure out what your process and efficiency is before we start trouble-shooting. You posted what your process is, but not near enough detail. We need to know volumes, temperatures, and times for each and every step, as well as the recipe you used. Then we can advise you where you should be taking samples and what you should be looking for. Right now I can't figure out what numbers you are getting and where they are coming from

 

[beerkrump]

Could you post the volume of wort that went into your fermeter and the OG for both beers that you listed in the original post?

Just want to check your math with mine.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

I'll get more in depth with my steps then to see if it helps:

12lbs 2 Row
2.5lbs Crystal 40L
2lbs Pilsen
2.5lbs Vienna

Step 1.) Bought/ crushed grains at my local homebrew store.
Step 2.) Used grains after storing them in my loft at about 80-88 degrees.
Step 3.) Boiled one pot (7 gallons) of water.
Step 4.) Put 5.2 gallons of water into my cooler/ mash tun.
Step 5.) Stirred the water until at 162 degrees.
Step 6.) Dropped the grain in and stirred for about 5 minutes. Temps before closing lid were at 148 degrees between several sample points.
Step 7.) Boiled another pot and placed it in a secondary pot to be used as sparge at 172 degrees.
Step 8.) Total time for mashing was 90 minutes. Stirred the grains before draining the wort; temp in the grain bed dropped to about 146 degrees. Drained about 2-3 gallons.
Step 9.) Sparged water with my Pyrex pitcher (at ~4 cups at a time) for a total of 4.5 gallons. Drained out about 4 gallons. Total wort was about 7 gallons.
Step 10.) Took a sample from the wort, placed it in the freezer plastic wrapped, then measured at 60 degrees. Result: 1.058. Expected for 100%: 1.062.
Step 11.) Boiled the wort for a total of 100 minutes. Total loss was about 1-1.5 gallons from evaporation. Used a chiller to lower temps to about 80 degrees, after about 25 minutes. Total volume in the fermenter ended at about 5.75 gallons.
Step 12.) Sample from the fermenter was 1.073 @ 60 degrees before pitching the yeast.

Is there other information that anyone might need to analyze this further?

beerkrump: My final OG before pitching for the extract recipe was about 1.054 and for the first all-grain I mentioned it was 1.074.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

Based on what you have listed here, your gravity at lauter should have been much higher. I suspect that you are still misunderstanding how these calculations work and are therefore entering wrong values into the calculators. All of the ones you listed are accurate.

Here's the math:

You have 19lb of grain, for simplicity let's assume that it all has a sugar value of 36ppg. That means you have a total sugar potential of 684.

Divide this by the total volume that went into your boil kettle, and you have your theoretical maximum gravity. Whatever you actually get is your proportional efficiency.

What table are you talking about on Kaiser's website? If you mashed with 5.2 gallons of water, that's 1.1 quarts/pound (which is slightly low, but should still work if you didn't get stuck). Your first wort should have had a gravity near 1.106 or so. Did you check this?

I did not check the first wort. I will take more measurements for my next brew to see exactly where the fowl-up in the process is.

The table I was referring to is under "Determining Conversion Efficiency," Table 1. With my SG reading of 1.058 I gathered that my efficiency was 100% if my qt/lb total in my brew pot was 2.20. However, with about 9.7 gallons (38.8 quarts) of total mash/sparge water with 19 lbs of grain I should have had a qt/lb of 2.042. This would mean an SG of about 1.0625ish. I divided 1.058 by 1.0625 and got 99% as a ratio (maybe should have done 58 divided by 62.5 which would be 92%).

Under the " Calculating Efficiency" section, 'Gravity Potential Based Efficiency Calculation' has the following formula:
maximum gravity points = (weight grain 1 in lb * potential grain 1 in pppg) / volume in gal
I assumed an overall potential of my grains at about 75%, or 35pppg. So, 19 * 35 (665) / 7 gallons of wort volume = 95. Max gravity would therefore be 1.095, correct? If so, then my OG of 1.073 would mean an efficiency of 76.8% (73 divided by 95)?

Am I doing this incorrectly? Oh, also the spreadsheet I used was under "Determining Conversion Efficiency" with the hyperlink 'Efficiency-Troubleshooting-Spreadhseet.'

 

[MalFet]

I did not check the first wort. I will take more measurements for my next brew to see exactly where the fowl-up in the process is.

The table I was referring to is under "Determining Conversion Efficiency," Table 1. With my SG reading of 1.058 I gathered that my efficiency was 100% if my qt/lb total in my brew pot was 2.20. However, with about 9.7 gallons (38.8 quarts) of total mash/sparge water with 19 lbs of grain I should have had a qt/lb of 2.042. This would mean an SG of about 1.0625ish. I divided 1.058 by 1.0625 and got 99% as a ratio (maybe should have done 58 divided by 62.5 which would be 92%).

Under the " Calculating Efficiency" section, 'Gravity Potential Based Efficiency Calculation' has the following formula:
maximum gravity points = (weight grain 1 in lb * potential grain 1 in pppg) / volume in gal
I assumed an overall potential of my grains at about 75%, or 35pppg. So, 19 * 35 (665) / 7 gallons of wort volume = 95. Max gravity would therefore be 1.095, correct? If so, then my OG of 1.073 would mean an efficiency of 76.8% (73 divided by 95)?

Am I doing this incorrectly? Oh, also the spreadsheet I used was under "Determining Conversion Efficiency" with the hyperlink 'Efficiency-Troubleshooting-Spreadhseet.'

You are reading the table on braukaiser's site incorrectly, and 1.062 does not equal 100% efficiency. Your later math is closer to correct, but you need use your preboil volume and your preboil gravity. Your OG in the fermentor is irrelevant.

7 gallons of 1.058 wort is 406 points, and 406/665 is 61%, so that's your efficiency.

 

[broadbill]

I'll get more in depth with my steps then to see if it helps:

12lbs 2 Row
2.5lbs Crystal 40L
2lbs Pilsen
2.5lbs Vienna

Step 1.) Bought/ crushed grains at my local homebrew store.
Step 2.) Used grains after storing them in my loft at about 80-88 degrees.
Step 3.) Boiled one pot (7 gallons) of water.
Step 4.) Put 5.2 gallons of water into my cooler/ mash tun. this puts you at 1.1qt/lb grain....a little thick, but not too bad.
Step 5.) Stirred the water until at 162 degrees.
Step 6.) Dropped the grain in and stirred for about 5 minutes. Temps before closing lid were at 148 degrees between several sample points.
Step 7.) Boiled another pot and placed it in a secondary pot to be used as sparge at 172 degrees.
Step 8.) Total time for mashing was 90 minutes. Stirred the grains before draining the wort; temp in the grain bed dropped to about 146 degrees. Drained about 2-3 gallons.Did you vorlauf here?, shouldn't affect efficiency, but its important to prevent mash material from ending up in the Kettle
Step 9.) Sparged water with my Pyrex pitcher (at ~4 cups at a time) for a total of 4.5 gallons. Drained out about 4 gallons. Total wort was about 7 gallons. Are you fly or batch sparging? Sounds like you are fly-sparging. Do you think you might have "channeling" of the mash bed and the sparge water is flowing around it instead of through it?
Step 10.) Took a sample from the wort, placed it in the freezer plastic wrapped, then measured at 60 degrees. Result: 1.058. Expected for 100%: 1.062.So I calculated your numbers and 100% efficiency equals 1.097 for 7 gallons. So your brewhouse efficiency is 58/97*100 = 59.7%...not sure where you got your numbers.
Step 11.) Boiled the wort for a total of 100 minutes. Total loss was about 1-1.5 gallons from evaporation. Used a chiller to lower temps to about 80 degrees, after about 25 minutes. Total volume in the fermenter ended at about 5.75 gallons.
Step 12.) Sample from the fermenter was 1.073 @ 60 degrees before pitching the yeast.your numbers line up relative to boil rate, and what you should have ended up with gravity-wise going from pre-boil to post-boil.

Is there other information that anyone might need to analyze this further?

beerkrump: My final OG before pitching for the extract recipe was about 1.054 and for the first all-grain I mentioned it was 1.074.

One other thing...this is a monster recipe, so that might account for the bad efficiency you are seeing. Its not uncommon for high gravity worts to come in at 60-65% efficiency. I'd be interested what you get if you do a "normal" recipe.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

One other thing...this is a monster recipe, so that might account for the bad efficiency you are seeing. Its not uncommon for high gravity worts to come in at 60-65% efficiency. I'd be interested what you get if you do a "normal" recipe.

Don't know what vorloufing is but I have my cooler set up with the original drain acting as the path for draining the wort. I have a stainless-steel braided mesh, removed from a reinforced hose for plumbing, that is very good at keeping all the bits and pieces out of my wort. So, the mesh stretches from one end of the cooler to the other, attached through the drain plug to the outside by a hose and manual ball valve connection. It is a gravity drain operated system.

As far as the sparge goes, I thought it was batch sparging. I stir the grain and drain after the mash. Then I add water to the top of the grain bed with my pitcher by just pouring it over the top. I stir and drain again.

What are you calculating to get 1.098 for 100% efficiency?
For my other batches I averaged 60-65%, using Beer Calculus and Brew Pal, ranging from a grain bill of 8lbs to 20 lbs.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

You are reading the table on braukaiser's site incorrectly, and 1.062 does not equal 100% efficiency. Your later math is closer to correct, but you need use your preboil volume and your preboil gravity. Your OG in the fermentor is irrelevant.

7 gallons of 1.058 wort is 406 points, and 406/665 is 61%, so that's your efficiency.

Ok, so what you are saying is the formula should be the following then:
maximum gravity points = (weight grain 1 in lb * potential grain 1 in pppg) / volume in gal
Overall potential of my grains is 75%, or 35pppg. So, 19lbs * 35 (665) / 7 gallons of wort volume = 95. Max gravity would therefore be 1.095, correct? If so, then my OG of 1.058 would equal an efficiency of 61% (58 divided by 95)?

How should the table be read if the way I'm doing it is wrong then?

...my head hurts...I need some beer before I deal with any more numbers.

 

[mummasan]

Dude - I live in Mililani and I can help you out. The first problem you have is you crushed the grains at the LHBS. Once we get that sorted out your eff issues will be gone.

 

[broadbill]

Don't know what vorloufing is but I have my cooler set up with the original drain acting as the path for draining the wort. I have a stainless-steel braided mesh, removed from a reinforced hose for plumbing, that is very good at keeping all the bits and pieces out of my wort. So, the mesh stretches from one end of the cooler to the other, attached through the drain plug to the outside by a hose and manual ball valve connection. It is a gravity drain operated system.

Even with the best filter system, you are still going to have husks and grain bits coming out at the beginning of your run. This is usually collected and returned to the top of the mash, where the grain bed acts as a filter (vorlaufing). I have a similar system to what you have (identical actually) and I find I need to vorlauf about one quart before getting clear runnings.

As far as the sparge goes, I thought it was batch sparging. I stir the grain and drain after the mash. Then I add water to the top of the grain bed with my pitcher by just pouring it over the top. I stir and drain again.

Fly sparging: continuously adding water to top of grain bed, collecting from bottom.

Batch sparging: adding an amount of water to mash tun, stirring, then collecting runnings.

If you are adding water then stirring, it sounds like you are batch sparging. The weird thing that it sounds like you are doing is only adding 4 cups of sparge water at a time. If this is how you are doing it, then this might explain your efficiency woes.

Batch sparging is typically done by figuring out how much volume you get out of your mash (in your case 3 gallons) then subtracting that from your pre-boil volume (in your case 4 gallons, for a total of 7 gallons). Batch sparging is typically done by adding this 4 gallons to the mash tun all at once, or split up between 2-2 gallon batches. By doing it 4 cups at a time you aren't sufficiently washing the sugars out of the grain....by using 2-4 gallons at a time, you are really getting that grain stirred up and floating around in the sparge water you added, from this you'll have a good washing of those grains.

12 lbs 2 row @ 36 ppg = 12*36 = 432 pts
2.5lb C40 @ 35 ppg = 2.5*35 = 87.5 pts
2lb Pilsner @ 36 ppg = 2*36 = 72pts
2.5lb Vienna @ 35 ppg = 87.5 = 87.5pts

Total pts: 432+87.5+72+87.5 = 679 pts total

679pts/7 gallon (pre-boil volume) = 1.097 @ 100% eff. (pre-boil)
679pts/5.75 gallon (post-boil volume = 1.118 @ 100% eff (post-boil)

 

[Aloha_Brew]

Fly sparging: continuously adding water to top of grain bed, collecting from bottom.

Batch sparging: adding an amount of water to mash tun, stirring, then collecting runnings.

If you are adding water then stirring, it sounds like you are batch sparging. The weird thing that it sounds like you are doing is only adding 4 cups of sparge water at a time. If this is how you are doing it, then this might explain your efficiency woes.

Batch sparging is typically done by figuring out how much volume you get out of your mash (in your case 3 gallons) then subtracting that from your pre-boil volume (in your case 4 gallons, for a total of 7 gallons). Batch sparging is typically done by adding this 4 gallons to the mash tun all at once, or split up between 2-2 gallon batches. By doing it 4 cups at a time you aren't sufficiently washing the sugars out of the grain....by using 2-4 gallons at a time, you are really getting that grain stirred up and floating around in the sparge water you added, from this you'll have a good washing of those grains.

I usually add all the sparge water before stirring and draining. I do it in 4 cup intervals since that is all my pitcher holds. For this batch I actually did 2.25 gallons total twice due to the size of the grain bed. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Yooper]

One tip- "about" 2-3 gallons is NOT a valid measurement.

In order to figure this out, precision is key. Measure your runnings. Take the SG at room temperature (cool the sample). It'll be impossible to figure this out without precise measurements.

 

[MalFet]

Ok, so what you are saying is the formula should be the following then:
maximum gravity points = (weight grain 1 in lb * potential grain 1 in pppg) / volume in gal
Overall potential of my grains is 75%, or 35pppg. So, 19lbs * 35 (665) / 7 gallons of wort volume = 95. Max gravity would therefore be 1.095, correct? If so, then my OG of 1.058 would equal an efficiency of 61% (58 divided by 95)?

How should the table be read if the way I'm doing it is wrong then?

...my head hurts...I need some beer before I deal with any more numbers.

The table is used for testing your first runnings against your mash thickness to determine how much conversion you are getting. This is important for your efficiency, but it is much more specific.

 

[broadbill]

To add to MalFet comment: Your brewhouse efficiency is a product of both your conversion efficiency (how efficient was the conversion of starch to sugar in the mash) and your sparge efficiency (how efficiently you removed those sugars from the grains). Think of these two things as "mash efficiency" and "sparge efficiency".

In a perfect world, both would be 100%...meaning you had 100% conversion of starches to sugars then 100% removal of those sugars from the grain...of course you will never get that.

However, from what I have read, your conversion efficiency should be right up there...in the range of 90-95%. For this reason, most homebrewers don't even deal with this number....they assume that if they put their mash together right (correct temp, volume and sufficient mixing) and give it long enough (30-45 minutes is usually sufficient) that they have greater than 95% efficiency and that is good enough.

When we talk about/troubleshoot efficiency issues, we usually talk about "sparge efficiency". This tends to be much more variable because of difference in equipment, technique, recipes, etc. So when you say you have a low efficiency, we tend to look at this step and not so much the mash efficiency.

The other element to consider is grain crush. If your grain crush isn't good, then both your mash and sparge efficiencies will suffer. As I mentioned above, homebrewers tend to ignore the mash efficiency part of the equasion, so we often never know if we have a problem here...we just see it as a decrease in overall brewhouse efficiency. In finding out more about Alohabrew's system/process, I'm thinking this is once again a grain crush issue (probably should have started out with this idea in the first place!) along with the fact that this is a higher gravity recipe. Oftentimes this happens when someone has their LHBS crush their grain for them (they never seem to crush it fine enough).

Finally, as Yooper pointed out....careful measurement of volumes is critical here as well.

My prediction is that you'll be able to eek a bit more efficiency points out of this recipe with a better crush, but it still won't be spectacular (like in the 75%-80% range). However, a normal (1.040-1.060) recipe you should have any problems getting 75-80%.

Good luck!

 

[MalFet]

Right, exactly. It is a good idea to test your mash conversion efficiency periodically, but if everything goes right it your first runnings should always have a value that is nearly 95% of the theoretical numbers on Kaiser's table.

Sparge efficiency is where different systems can vary considerably, and even different recipes can vary considerably.

For a big beer, as others have mentioned, 60% is low but not extremely low (assuming that is actually what your efficiency is). Brewhouse efficiency is generally quite easy to calculate; it's just:
quantity of sugar in your kettle / quantity of sugar in your grain.

You figure out the first by multiplying your volume (7 gallons) by your gravity (1.058 -> 58), and you figure out the second by multiplying your potential (37ppg) by your grain weight (19lbs).

 

[Aloha_Brew]

Understand all. My LHBS is all I got to crush grains at the moment. So, I'll refine my sparging to see if I can't get more out of my grains. I'll take more extensive notes my next brew day later next week and measure as directed. It's another big grain bill, though I will probably make some normal sized ones the following week.

On a side note, if I mash half my grain bill for a big batch will I get better efficiency than all of it at once? Meaning, split my recipe into two batches for mashing purposes but combine them later for the boil...

 

[mummasan]

I made a barley wine recently and did just that. I split the grain and did two mashes but I just used the first runnings of each mash. For your next brew you can use my tun that way you could do two mashes side by side without waiting for the first to finish.

 

[broadbill]

Understand all. My LHBS is all I got to crush grains at the moment. So, I'll refine my sparging to see if I can't get more out of my grains. I'll take more extensive notes my next brew day later next week and measure as directed. It's another big grain bill, though I will probably make some normal sized ones the following week.

On a side note, if I mash half my grain bill for a big batch will I get better efficiency than all of it at once? Meaning, split my recipe into two batches for mashing purposes but combine them later for the boil...

You certainly could but this adds another 2 hours to your brew day. If it were me, For these high gravity brews I'd probably mash what I could in my cooler, and just add DME or LME to get the gravity where I want it. Another option is to get a bigger cooler, since it sounds like you are doing alot of brewing, much of it high-gravity.

As for LHBS crushing your grain: for an experiment, have them run the grain through twice. If you get a better efficiency with the double-crushed stuff, then you know that your crush is partly to blame here.

 

[broadbill]

I made a barley wine recently and did just that. I split the grain and did two mashes but I just used the first runnings of each mash. For your next brew you can use my tun that way you could do two mashes side by side without waiting for the first to finish.

The only reason I'm not crazy about this idea, is that the first runnings sit around while you mash/sparge the second batch. You need to keep those first runnings at >170F to prevent further conversion from happening while its sitting there.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

The only reason I'm not crazy about this idea, is that the first runnings sit around while you mash/sparge the second batch. You need to keep those first runnings at >170F to prevent further conversion from happening while its sitting there.

I'm leaning more towards the idea of halving my batches. I'll use just my cooler twice to compare efficiencies between the two grain beds. With a single mash I'll drain it in one pot and sparge into another. I'll combine it in the one and start the boil. Then I'll do the same with the second mash im the other pot to measure it and then sparge.

Just one question...anyone ever try to boil 7 gallons off before? I'm guessing that might alter the wort somehow...

 

[broadbill]

I'm leaning more towards the idea of halving my batches. I'll use just my cooler twice to compare efficiencies between the two grain beds. With a single mash I'll drain it in one pot and sparge into another. I'll combine it in the one and start the boil. Then I'll do the same with the second mash im the other pot to measure it and then sparge.

Just one question...anyone ever try to boil 7 gallons off before? I'm guessing that might alter the wort somehow...

First: Do you have the equipment to do a double batch concurrently? (I think that is what you are talking about doing) You will need a separate heat source and pots to heat the mash/sparge water for the second mash, while you are boiling the wort from the first mash.

You posted your boil rate in a previous post....7 gallons will take you 7.7 hours to boil off. Add that to mash/sparge times, prep and clean-up and you are talking upwards of 10-12hrs. This is assuming you can schedule your double mash perfectly and be time-efficient there. If you have to wait for equipment to be freed up to do the second mash, you are taking even longer than than 10-12 hours.


How about assuming you are going to have a 55% efficiency (even though you get 60ish% on this recipe) and bump up the grain bill accordingly? You can always dilute to correct if you over-shoot, and a few extra dollars of grain will save you several hours from your brew-day. Or mash what you can add DME to get the gravity you want?

Frankly, I don't think the double mash idea is a good one, but it not my brew-day. Just my 0.02...good luck!

 

[MalFet]

Also, why do you think that mashing your grain in two batches will give you higher efficiency? The only way I can see this is if you are adding more water, but you can do that in a single mash too. If your tun has significant dead space, you stand to get less efficiency.

Why do anything drastic? Your efficiency numbers are unreliable in the first place. There's no reason your current setup can't get at least into the mid-70s for efficiency, so — rather than mucking with it at this point — why not do some proper troubleshooting to figure out what your actual numbers look like?

From there, we can offer further advice to bump you up.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

Also, why do you think that mashing your grain in two batches will give you higher efficiency? The only way I can see this is if you are adding more water, but you can do that in a single mash too. If your tun has significant dead space, you stand to get less efficiency.

Why do anything drastic? Your efficiency numbers are unreliable in the first place. There's no reason your current setup can't get at least into the mid-70s for efficiency, so — rather than mucking with it at this point — why not do some proper troubleshooting to figure out what your actual numbers look like?

From there, we can offer further advice to bump you up.

Well, frankly that's what I'm trying to do. As you pointed out previously, efficiency and gravity are two seperate things. Also, that the yield from the initial mash conversion is generally more consistent compared to that obtained from sparging techniques.

So, by doing two seperate batches I can take readings with both using the exact same methods and more extensive notes. That way the results would be more telling.

Plus, my problem has really been the OG of my initial wort is lower than expected regardless of my grain bill. Based on the fact that as the grain bill increases the efficiency decreases (due to trouble with accurate sparging techniques I assume) then it makes sense that no matter how much grain I add to compensate the end result will remain the same: low OG. I was confusing this originally with bad efficiency.

I don't care about spending more time finding out exactly where my methods or equipment are lacking. I figure it will save me from many headaches and frustrating times in the future if I nail down the exact reason why my numbers aren't adding up now. Plus, I will ensure that I will meet what I expect for an OG on my next batch.

I could oversparge and just boil that excess off, I guess, but then it will be just one sample experimentation with more intense note taking (which I have not really done but will definitely do this next time) vs. two samples to provide a comparison.

Is something wrong with this logic? It might be excessive but it seems like my equipment is not performing as well as it should and if I rely on factors that are not consistent with how I brew, or what I brew with, then that doesn't really help me whenever I solely use what I had originally. Correct?

 

[MalFet]

So you want to split the batch to help you simulate two separate smaller batches? I suppose that would work, but it won't improve your efficiency on this particular batch.

Main thing is, get some measurements. As it stands, you don't really have the data to even say that you're having low efficiency.

 

[broadbill]

Well, frankly that's what I'm trying to do. As you pointed out previously, efficiency and gravity are two seperate things. Also, that the yield from the initial mash conversion is generally more consistent compared to that obtained from sparging techniques.

So, by doing two seperate batches I can take readings with both using the exact same methods and more extensive notes. That way the results would be more telling.

Plus, my problem has really been the OG of my initial wort is lower than expected regardless of my grain bill. Based on the fact that as the grain bill increases the efficiency decreases (due to trouble with accurate sparging techniques I assume) then it makes sense that no matter how much grain I add to compensate the end result will remain the same: low OG. I was confusing this originally with bad efficiency.

I don't care about spending more time finding out exactly where my methods or equipment are lacking. I figure it will save me from many headaches and frustrating times in the future if I nail down the exact reason why my numbers aren't adding up now. Plus, I will ensure that I will meet what I expect for an OG on my next batch.

I could oversparge and just boil that excess off, I guess, but then it will be just one sample experimentation with more intense note taking (which I have not really done but will definitely do this next time) vs. two samples to provide a comparison.

Is something wrong with this logic? It might be excessive but it seems like my equipment is not performing as well as it should and if I rely on factors that are not consistent with how I brew, or what I brew with, then that doesn't really help me whenever I solely use what I had originally. Correct?

Again, my take FWIW:

+1 to Malfet--first off, you don't know if you have a problem in the first place because you don't know volumes you are working with.

Second, you are trying to troubleshoot this problem following a recipe that is has its own host of issues associated with it...i.e. inherent issues with efficiency with high OG recipes.

How are you going to discriminate between a problem with your technique/equipment/process (something you can fix) versus the inherent problems working with high gravity AG recipes (something you can't do much about)?

Third-The definition of "insanity" is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Why split/halve this recipe, only to mash each one identically? That tells you nothing about anything. There are all sort of things you try and change here, but you seem unwilling to vary the one thing that is the easiest to change....the recipe. Try a lower gravity recipe and see if you have the same problems. With brings me to my fourth point:

Fourth--how many times do you need to brew this damn thing? Sounds like you've brewed it once or twice and going for it again. are going to have upwards of 10 gallons of 1.1-- wort, maybe close to 20 gallons if you do what you say you are going to do....That is alot of high-gravity stuff to have around? Are you sure this recipe is enough of a winner to have that much of it around?

I guess I'm now wondering what you goals are here....to improve a process or to have enough barleywine to get the entire island bombed out their skulls:cross:

 

[MalFet]

I guess I'm now wondering what you goals are here....to improve a process or to have enough barleywine to get the entire island bombed out their skulls:cross:

Not that there's anything wrong with that latter goal, of course...

High grav brews are fine, but a 60% efficiency (if that actually is what you're getting) is a relatively reasonable number for a bigbig beer. That's why we're recommending you work on your process as you actually plan to use it (i.e., not splitting up the batch).

 

[Aloha_Brew]

Not that there's anything wrong with that latter goal, of course...

High grav brews are fine, but a 60% efficiency (if that actually is what you're getting) is a relatively reasonable number for a bigbig beer. That's why we're recommending you work on your process as you actually plan to use it (i.e., not splitting up the batch).

Like I've been saying, I confused efficiency with expected OG. I've done several different high gravity bills now, the most recent being two different IPAs. One had 19 lbs while the other had 16.5 lbs, while both had 12 lbs of 2 row. The smaller bill had an OG of 1.074 but the larger was 1.073. So, the argument for just adding more grain to reach my desired OG obviously doesn't work for me...for whatever reason.

For my next batch my grain bill has half 2 row and half specialties (recipe given earlier). So, it would not be two identical mashes but 2 similar weights. There isn't much else I can measure with the exception of true efficiency. Once I am sure about that then I can move on to the next step to see where my major loss is occuring.

Plus, I'm in the Navy and well aware of insanity. Definitely got a ways to go! And I have liked higher ABV beers for some time now...just brewing these to learn more and to drink myself silly...

 

[MalFet]

Adding more grain WILL increase your OG, there's no doubt about that. Something else was going on. Plus, you definitely shouldn't mash the two row and the specialty grains separately. You won't get conversion.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

Adding more grain WILL increase your OG, there's no doubt about that. Something else was going on. Plus, you definitely shouldn't mash the two row and the specialty grains separately. You won't get conversion.

I thought I heard about that conversion thing from somewhere... but the specialty grains included are 10 lbs Munich(48%), Peated(28%), and Pilsen(18%) with 1.5 lbs including half pale choco and Rausch. Wouldn't these convert well by themselves without the 2 row?

Understood that the OG should have been higher but it most definitely was not. That's why I started this thread with efficiency as the topic. Couldn't think of any reason why my actual OG was so low.

 

[broadbill]

I thought I heard about that conversion thing from somewhere... but the specialty grains included are 10 lbs Munich(48%), Peated(28%), and Pilsen(18%) with 1.5 lbs including half pale choco and Rausch. Wouldn't these convert well by themselves without the 2 row?

Understood that the OG should have been higher but it most definitely was not. That's why I started this thread with efficiency as the topic. Couldn't think of any reason why my actual OG was so low.

The munich is able to self-convert, but not much more than that. The peated and pilsner are able to self-convert and also convert specialty grains without enzymatic power. The question is it is enough?

Can you post the complete recipe? I don't think the recipe in your OP had rausch, peated or any of that other stuff in it. Where did you get this recipe?

 

[MalFet]

I thought I heard about that conversion thing from somewhere... but the specialty grains included are 10 lbs Munich(48%), Peated(28%), and Pilsen(18%) with 1.5 lbs including half pale choco and Rausch. Wouldn't these convert well by themselves without the 2 row?

Understood that the OG should have been higher but it most definitely was not. That's why I started this thread with efficiency as the topic. Couldn't think of any reason why my actual OG was so low.

If that is your recipe, it will convert. The term specialty grain generally refers to grains without diastatic power, which doesn't apply to this recipe.

Something else was different between your two batches, and this has been my point from the beginning: your process is not consistent enough to make any kind of generalizations about efficiency. You are of course welcome to split your batch, but it will not fix your efficiency problem. There is something more fundamentally amiss with your process if you are seeing those kinds of swings.

 

[Aloha_Brew]

I agree! Wish I knew what it was. But I'll take in-depth notes for the next brew day and ask for assistance if I still can't figure it out.

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

Have you checked your pH?

If not get some pH strips and a pound of crushed grain, drop it into 1.5 quarts of your brewing water @ 115 deg. F. Wait 10 min and then check the pH. If it's not between 5-5.5 you have pH problems.

I also don't know how much you trust your thermometer, that could be a problem