Kettle Sour

[isomerization]

RPh guy recently turned me on to different souring schedules as well. Did a gose with a lacto pitch 48 hours after the sach pitch, got down to 3.08 ph and I enjoyed how the mixed pitch worked. I read through this first: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation. Apparently co-pitching can subdue the sach characteristics so I let it establish itself then added lacto.

I am going to duplicate this type of schedule this weekend for a Sour IPA. Brew sour as normal with 0 IBU in the boil. I am pitching a starter of sour IPA dregs and then 48 hours later I will pitch a lacto starter, let it sour and then dry hop two days before packaging to kill lacto and impart hop flavor.

Please correct this to sour NE IPA

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Please correct this to sour NE IPA

I live in NY.

 

[isomerization]

I live in NY.

So no sense of humor? Check

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

So no sense of humor? Check

Hahahahaha internet sarcasm FTW. I knew I'd be outed as a closet juice-wolf posting that recipe. We can't deny our nature.

 

[isomerization]

Hahahahaha internet sarcasm FTW. I knew I'd be outed as a closet juice-wolf posting that recipe. We can't deny our nature.

All jokes aside, what benefit are you expecting to gain going this route, versus the kettle sour approach? If you sour first, then you can late hop til your juicewolf heart is content!

 

[cactusgarrett]

I will take the lazy man route and dump the contents of 5 in and see how low it will go. Thanks for the idea!

I like to think of it as the "risk averse" approach.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

All jokes aside, what benefit are you expecting to gain going this route, versus the kettle sour approach? If you sour first, then you can late hop til your juicewolf heart is content!

As I am using a harvested batch of dregs from a Sour IPA I am trying to get the dregs personality to come through before the souring. As far as why I am adding lacto to the back-end instead of the front-end it really is just easier in my system to sour in the fermenter. I use a one-vessel eBIAB system and it really isn't feasible to keep the wort in the kettle to sour as my setup takes up the majority of my kitchen and I brew on weekends. I saw the technique posted by RPH guy and initially wanted to use it as a means to let Sach Trois ferment warm and then add lacto for a nice mixed ferment. Also I prefer my sours on the low side pH-wise so it doesn't bother me to let the lacto go until it tires out.

I have only done the technique once but I plan to try variations (co-pitching, etc.) and I think it can be useful for others who find the kettle sour to actually be difficult or inconvenient on their systems. Plus I find it to be sort of a "warm-up" to true mixed ferms tha utilize sach, lacto and brett. Haven't taken the brett plunge yet though.

 

[TwistedGray]

Plantarum is PERFECT for this. I found the Swanson capsules are MUCH easier than a starter - 1 capsule (opened and dumped) per gallon. Sours beautifully in 48-72 hours at room temp.

These ones?

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

These ones?

Those are the ones I bought to try out.

 

[TwistedGray]

Those are the ones I bought to try out.

I recall you mentioning this in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one). Still holding out to see how it comes out as I'd like to get away from expensive OYL-605.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I recall you mentioning this in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one). Still holding out to see how it comes out as I'd like to get away from expensive OYL-605.

You and me both. I will be brewing on Sunday and trying to get the beer into bottles and conditioned ASAP so it won't take too long to assess how the caps work. I think I will just open and dump 5 of them into the fermenter like Garrett mentions above and see how low it will go. 5 caps working just as well versus a pouch of OYL605 would make me a happy camper.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Those are the ones I bought to try out.

Exactly what i use. Get them in the fridge when you get them. Relatively fresh you can use 1 cap per gallon, but once they get a little older, i tend to use extra, like 8 caps per 6 gal.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I recall you mentioning this in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one). Still holding out to see how it comes out as I'd like to get away from expensive OYL-605.

When i first started kettle souring, i used OYL-605 with a buffered starter and all. Saved some with the idea that i'd keep using it, but you have to feed it. Huge PITA as far as i'm concerned. Doesn't get any easier than getting enough capsules for at least 5 batches for the price of one, with a lot less effort.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Woops I have had them at room temp with the other supplement non-sense. Will fridge when I get home.

 

[isomerization]

When i first started kettle souring, i used OYL-605 with a buffered starter and all. Saved some with the idea that i'd keep using it, but you have to feed it. Huge PITA as far as i'm concerned. Doesn't get any easier than getting enough capsules for at least 5 batches for the price of one, with a lot less effort.

Were you storing at 5C (fridge)? I keep an 8 oz mason jar of my completed starter that way. Works just fine every 6 months (I do 11 gal twice of year of kettle sours).

EDIT: I do still make a starter with it, so the cost of DME is still there.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Per Milk the Funk:

“Both growth and the the lowering of pH begin to stabilize around 12-48 hours (assuming the Lactobacillus does not have any yeast to compete with). Titratable acidity will also rise drastically during growth, but will also continue to rise after growth has completed. The maximum growth that a particular species or strain is capable of might be explained by its pH tolerance, and thus its ability to produce more acid. For example, L. plantarum has been shown to grow in a very low pH environment (3.37-3.0 pH, depending on strain) due to their ability to better control large pH gradients between the cytoplasma and the external environment.”

I'm not sure why you're quoting this to me... It's not contrary to what I was saying.
What was it I said that you wanted to correct, so we can discuss?

RPH is saying that they like to pitch the lacto at the same time as the yeast...something I've never heard of or done. Do you (RPH) know commercial breweries doing it this way? Would be curious to compare their finished product.

No, but co-souring results are the same as pre-souring in my experience.

That's my confusion...if I am kettle souring at 100F and fermenting at 60-65F how can pitching them at the same time and fermenting at 60-65F be ideal for the kettle souring aspect. Also, is it even called kettle souring at that point? Or does it fall under traditional souring?

As others have said, plantarum works well down to 65°F, so there's no need for a separate souring stage. It's not a kettle sour ... I'd simply call it "co-souring" as opposed to pre-souring or post-souring.

RPh guy recently turned me on to different souring schedules as well. Did a gose with a lacto pitch 48 hours after the sach pitch, got down to 3.08 ph and I enjoyed how the mixed pitch worked. I read through this first: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation. Apparently co-pitching can subdue the sach characteristics so I let it establish itself then added lacto.

Post-souring is the main approach I use now. It lets the yeast develop more flavor since acidity mutes yeast expression.
On brew day I drain 500mL of fresh wort into a flask before pitching yeast and use this as a starter for Lacto. I add a couple grams of calcium carbonate, add Lacto (one probiotic capsule), let it sit at room temp, and pitch at 48-72 hours. It develops full acidity within a few days and the yeast have already contributed flavor, so everyone's happy.

Cheers

 

[isomerization]

I'm not sure why you're quoting this to me... It's not contrary to what I was saying.
What was it I said that you wanted to correct, so we can discuss?

You literally asked for sources regarding my statement that Lacto could go down to pH 3.0, additionally that quote indicates additional souring occurs past where Lacto growth is inhibited.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You literally asked for sources regarding my statement that Lacto could go down to pH 3.0, additionally that quote indicates additional souring occurs past where Lacto growth is inhibited.

I said "it'll stop around 3.1-3.3 by itself."
MTF says 3.0-3.37.

Is that what you mean?
It's absolutely correct that some strains can go to 3.0. My range was just more narrow around the most common endpoints that I see from my experience and others. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

TA is obviously correlated with pH in sour wort, so I think it's reasonable to assume acid production has stopped when the pH stabilizes.
Exactly what point in time Lacto growth becomes inhibited I think is irrelevant since that's not something we measure and doesn't have any significant impact on flavor or process (as far as I know, besides the fact that you should let Lacto starters go for a couple days).

I thought you were debating dry hopping... Dry hops have been shown to stop acid production.
There's more info about dry hopping an active Lacto fermentation on the MTF Facebook group and a little bit on the wiki (hops page).
I like sour, so I don't dry hop until pH is 3.3 or lower.

Cheers

 

[isomerization]

I said "it'll stop around 3.1-3.3 by itself."
MTF says 3.0-3.37.

Is that what you mean?
It's absolutely correct that some strains can go to 3.0. My range was just more narrow around the most common endpoints that I see from my experience and others. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

TA is obviously correlated with pH in sour wort, so I think it's reasonable to assume acid production has stopped when the pH stabilizes.
Exactly what point in time Lacto growth becomes inhibited I think is irrelevant since that's not something we measure and doesn't have any significant impact on flavor or process (as far as I know, besides the fact that you should let Lacto starters go for a couple days).

I thought you were debating dry hopping... Dry hops have been shown to stop acid production.
There's more info about dry hopping an active Lacto fermentation on the MTF Facebook group and a little bit on the wiki (hops page).
I like sour, so I don't dry hop until pH is 3.3 or lower.

Cheers

Ah well there you go, I took your comment about not trusting random people’s pH readings as an insult.

I would say that IF souring does indeed continue to occur after growth has stopped, that using a buffering agent is more important than I had thought.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I do start to wonder when people get readings like 2.7 or 2.8.

 

[shortyz]

im going to give those a go on my next kettle sour, sick of wyeast containmating my process.

 

[fendersrule]

I really want to sour, but how the hell do you cheaply, safely, easily, hold a 15 gallon kettle to 80-100F over 2 days? Heat strips, heat pads, etc? I definitely am not going to go to my stove-top every 2 hours and turn on the burner for 2 days! If I attempt, I would probably make a single batch (5 gallons).

 

[cactusgarrett]

how the hell do you cheaply, safely, easily, hold a 15 gallon kettle to 80-100F over 2 days?

You don't have to. Use lacto plantarum and just hold above 65°F.

 

[fendersrule]

Awesome! Can you link me to a process for making a sour using the room temp method? Thanks so much!

 

[cactusgarrett]

It's throughout this thread. Just use plantarum instead of the other strains and hold as low as 65°F.

 

[fendersrule]

Lacto Plantarum does a nice job with kettle sours at lower temps. I brewed a Gose where I chilled the wort to around 90F pitched, let it sit on my kitchen counter (around 70F) and it dropped to 3.45 ph in around 36 hours.

I adjusted my ph down to 4.5 with lactic acid before I pitched, purged the headspace with CO2 and sealed the edge of the lid with plastic wrap. Beer turned out great.

This is really interesting! I would love to try to make a "room temp" sour.

Do you have a good 5 gallon simple recipe, maybe something that's around 6% ABV using the room temp method?

From what it sounds like you did is make the mash, cover it, let it drop to 90F, then pitch the plantarum, wrap it, let it sit for 48 hours, then proceed to the boil and make beer per usual.

The new thing for me is that I've never measured PH before...all my beers have been turning out really good just using tap water. I suppose that measuring PH is not necessary, just let it sit for the full 48 hours?

If I was doing a PM receipe, would I add the extract before pitching the plantarum or would I add the extract after (before the boil)?

 

[cactusgarrett]

1. Recipe - depends on what you're looking for. For example, a standard Berliner Weisse is 50% Pils, 50% Wheat, kettle sour as desired, then ferment with a clean/neutral yeast. Done. To help you out, stop thinking about it as a "room temp method". There's just a souring method. Temp is solely dependent on the lacto strain you select.
   
   
2. "...mash, cover it, let it drop to 90F, then pitch the plantarum, wrap it, let it sit for 48 hours, then proceed to the boil and make beer per usual".
   Exactly. You just described a kettle sour. People mysticize it, but it really is that simple. Two extra steps to ensure success:
   • After running off your mash, do a quick boil to kill any nasties.
   • As you boil the first time (before souring), pre-acidify - something like 10 drops of 88% lactic acid for a 5gal batch. Some people do, some don't. Doing so also helps ensure nasties don't grab hold as it's souring pre-fermentation.
     
3. I've never measured pH, either. I just pitch lacto and wait 48-72 hours before boiling to kill it, then fermenting. I trust the lacto, as tasting doesn't get you anywhere: the residual sweetness masks the perception of sourness enough that you can't get a good handle on the projected outcome by tasting.
   
   
4. For a PM, you basically do whatever you do to get your final wort as if it were the full batch post-mash, pre-boil. So in this case, you'd add the extract, do a quick boil and chill, pitch lacto, then boil (with hops if desired), then chill and ferment.

 

[fendersrule]

Cool, thanks. I'm thinking of doing a Blackberry Sour Ale, and maybe another Raspberry Sour Ale, 1G batches each. I'll have to build out the recipe and what not. Probably will go all grain. I'm thinking to make the blackberry and Raspberry extract myself by blending first (frozen bags), then boiling them in some water for 7 minutes. Probably would strain, then pour it into the wort in the later phase right before I pitch the yeast. I can definitely can forsee some wheat being apart of the grain bill for nice retention.

How do you make something "more sour"? Is it simply just adding more lacto? Curious if there's a set amount or a calculator for it. I generally find that "Gose" beers are too mild in the sour taste for me. I typically like my sour taste to be more on the strong side, but not not completely crushing.

 

[TwistedGray]

Cool, thanks. I'm thinking of doing a Blackberry Sour Ale, and maybe another Raspberry Sour Ale, 1G batches each. I'll have to build out the recipe and what not. Probably will go all grain. I'm thinking to make the blackberry and Raspberry extract myself by blending first (frozen bags), then boiling them in some water for 7 minutes. Probably would strain, then pour it into the wort in the later phase right before I pitch the yeast. I can definitely can forsee some wheat being apart of the grain bill for nice retention.

How do you make something "more sour"? Is it simply just adding more lacto? Curious if there's a set amount or a calculator for it. I generally find that "Gose" beers are too mild in the sour taste for me. I typically like my sour taste to be more on the strong side, but not not completely crushing.

I think there is a limit to the souring you can get away with before you have to start futzing with the water source. Surely someone can chime in.

I would hold off on the fruit until fermentation is complete, and for a one gallon batch I would go at least two pounds of fruit (maybe three). A 2:1 ratio is generally safe. Also, I would save the headache and just clean the berries, freeze the berries, and toss in whole.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I think there is a limit to the souring you can get away with before you have to start futzing with the water source

I think i read some discussion in the Sour/Wild board that lacto will stop producing lactic acid once it's down to pH ~3.0. Down around 3.2 and 3.1 is where the tangy sourness starts to get abrasive, and most people don't care for it down that far.

+1 to TG - fruit is typically added to sours on the tail end of fermentation (to scrub oxygen), if not after fermentation is complete.

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but ALL these discussions are throughout the boards here. One thing to do: take the weekend and pore over the Milk the Funk wiki. ANYthing you could ever need to know about sours is there.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Main_Page