Kettle sour - target pH?

[RPh_Guy]

Greetings folks!

Looking for some opinions of how to proceed with my current brew. Fairly new brewer here experimenting with the all-grain wheat ale kit from brooklyn brew shop.

Sixty-six hours after pitching various bacteria, the pH of my batch is now around 3.6 with a smooth very mildly detectable sour taste on top of the typical profound grainy sweetness. No off flavors, aromas, colors, or growths detectable at this point.

I plan to dry-pitch the ale yeast that came with the kit. Is 3.6 a reasonable pH target for a sour ale in your opinion? I was hoping for a bit more sourness but I also don't want to cause too much of a hazard for my yeast. Debating whether to pitch a few more of the probiotic capsules and give it a little longer or proceed with sterilizing it now.
Volume lost during the boil could drop the pH a little bit further, correct?

Also I'm wondering whether I should use the full amount of palisade hops in the original kit recipe for bittering or cut them back a bit. What would you suggest for a target IBU?

Thanks guys!

 

[microbusbrewery]

Personally, I'd shoot for a bit lower pH, but I admit I like my sours pretty sour. I have a sour IPA fermenting right now that I used GoodBelly SuperShots and room temps for souring. It dropped the pH to 3.49 which is still higher pH than almost all of my traditional sours, but I think it's going to be sour enough for my liking. I got the recipe from Jason Yester at Trinity Brewing and it's based on Super Juice Solution. Jason uses a different LAB but he suggested shooting for a pH between 3.2 and 3.4 before proceeding with the boil, so something closer to that range is what I'd suggest.

Re hops, I prefer lower IBUs for sours as the bitterness can really clash with sour character. For my Super Juice Solution attempt, I used one 3ml hopshot from Yakima Valley Hops at 60 min. I also had a huge late addition consisting of 33g each of Amarillo, Citra, Mosaic, and Simcoe at 10 min. This is a different hop schedule than the original SJS recipe called for, but one I decided to experiment with. I use a plate chiller along with whirlpool recirculation, so I'm able to drop the boil kettle temps below isomerization temps within a couple minutes. Per YVH IBUs from the hopshots are calculated as:
Volume of extract (mL) = AAU (g) x Density of hop extract (g/mL)
-->One-milliliter yields around 10 IBUs in 5 gallons of 1.050 wort when boiled for 60 minutes.
My gravity was in the neighborhood of 1.050 so I'd guestimate that I'm probably around 40-ish IBUs after the late addition. I tasted a post-boil sample and there was definitely noticeable bitterness, but I think it'll probably be right where I want it after fermentation is finished.

 

[Morrey]

Personally, I'd shoot for a bit lower pH, but I admit I like my sours pretty sour. I have a sour IPA fermenting right now that I used GoodBelly SuperShots and room temps for souring. It dropped the pH to 3.49 which is still higher pH than almost all of my traditional sours, but I think it's going to be sour enough for my liking. I got the recipe from Jason Yester at Trinity Brewing and it's based on Super Juice Solution. Jason uses a different LAB but he suggested shooting for a pH between 3.2 and 3.4 before proceeding with the boil, so something closer to that range is what I'd suggest.

Re hops, I prefer lower IBUs for sours as the bitterness can really clash with sour character. For my Super Juice Solution attempt, I used one 3ml hopshot from Yakima Valley Hops at 60 min. I also had a huge late addition consisting of 33g each of Amarillo, Citra, Mosaic, and Simcoe at 10 min. This is a different hop schedule than the original SJS recipe called for, but one I decided to experiment with. I use a plate chiller along with whirlpool recirculation, so I'm able to drop the boil kettle temps below isomerization temps within a couple minutes. Per YVH IBUs from the hopshots are calculated as:
Volume of extract (mL) = AAU (g) x Density of hop extract (g/mL)
-->One-milliliter yields around 10 IBUs in 5 gallons of 1.050 wort when boiled for 60 minutes.
My gravity was in the neighborhood of 1.050 so I'd guestimate that I'm probably around 40-ish IBUs after the late addition. I tasted a post-boil sample and there was definitely noticeable bitterness, but I think it'll probably be right where I want it after fermentation is finished.

100% in agreement as you'll learn microbusbrewery is a good source for sour information.

I am kettle souring a wort as we speak that will be a Gose sour. My base recipe is 50/50 wheat/2 row so I suppose we can put this into a wheat beer classification.

If you ever tired Sierra Nevada's Orta Vez, I believe this beer was around 3.6 ph when they boiled it. I call this a beginner's sour since it is not very sour. Personally, I go to 3.2, but I use L Plantarum lacto which usually takes me to 3.2 before it stalls out in 2 days. Omega Labs OYL-605 or Swanson L Plantarum probiotic caps, but look for L Plantarum as it sours near room temp and is quick in doing it.

3.6 mildly sour
3.5 semi-sour
3.4 getting there
3.3 you got to like sours to be here
3.2 you got to LOVE sours to be here

If you look at the tapboard in sour focused brewery, they list the ph levels, not IBU's

Speaking of IBU's, I use very little hops so they don't compete with your sour notes. I am using 8 IBU's of Hallertau (Nobel) hops for a slight balance.

A good ph meter will be your friend if you intend to stick with sours. Really hard to taste the sour levels when all that sweetness from unfermented sugars is tricking your taste buds. A ph meter cant be tricked as easily! LOL

 

[mabrungard]

I've taken Berliners down to 3.0 and 3.1 and I'll concur that Morrey's assessment is appropriate. 3.5 is the minimum that I would find passable for a sour beer and 3.4 to 3.3 would be more appropriate. But going lower than that is an acquired taste and its not for all.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks microbus, morrey, and mabrungard!

I went out & got a pH meter and it turns out it was actually 3.22 (curse those strips!)... so looks like I'll have a nice sour! The probiotic I used did contain some amount of L. plantarum since I wanted to ferment at room temp (74F) as I had done some research on sourcing the Lacto. Figured some bacterial variety probably wouldn't hurt and might add dimension.

I added the palisade hops to target IBU of 5 with some extra at flameout for flavor. O.G. is 1.056

I normally dry pitch the yeast but this time I rehydrated it to help overcome the additional stress. I'm a bit nervous about this.

Think I can call this a berliner?

 

[microbusbrewery]

Thanks microbus, morrey, and mabrungard!

I went out & got a pH meter and it turns out it was actually 3.22 (curse those strips!)... so looks like I'll have a nice sour! The probiotic I used did contain some amount of L. plantarum since I wanted to ferment at room temp (74F) as I had done some research on sourcing the Lacto. Figured some bacterial variety probably wouldn't hurt and might add dimension.

I added the palisade hops to target IBU of 5 with some extra at flameout for flavor. O.G. is 1.056

I normally dry pitch the yeast but this time I rehydrated it to help overcome the additional stress. I'm a bit nervous about this.

Think I can call this a berliner?

3.22 is going to be awesome. What yeast are you using? I really like a blend of sach and brett in my Berliners, but I tend to sour them post boil rather than kettle souring. I'll let them go for about a week with Lactobacillus only, then pitch brett and sach. That way it gives it a touch of brett character, but the funk doesn't dominate.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What yeast are you using?

I have not a clue. The kit doesn't label the yeast or give the grain recipe. Kind of annoying but I could understand their motivation to keep it secret.

Good news though, I checked 9 hours after pitching and there's a pretty reasonable fermentation happening (at ~66F).

Brett is awesome. I would love to do some traditional mixed fermentation sours at some point. Just seemed like a big first step for a new brewer.

Thanks again

 

[Morrey]

I have not a clue. The kit doesn't label the yeast or give the grain recipe. Kind of annoying but I could understand their motivation to keep it secret.

Good news though, I checked 9 hours after pitching and there's a pretty reasonable fermentation happening (at ~66F).

Brett is awesome. I would love to do some traditional mixed fermentation sours at some point. Just seemed like a big first step for a new brewer.

Thanks again

I wouldn't be surprised if your unlabeled yeast was US-05. You probably won't know for sure but that strain is a safe bet when you start buying your own supplies not in a kit. I have used WLP001, WLP029 and US-05. 05 is cheaper, and I can't tell any difference using any of these 3 in a kettle sour.

I did a dozen kettle sours before I finally got the confidence the low ph level wouldn't hurt my yeast. Seems like a leap of faith but I never had a failure to launch from a good starter (liquid yeast) or a properly rehydrated sachet of dry. Give your yeast every advantage by treating it properly as mentioned since you are pitching into a hostile environment. But, no worries unless mistakes are made handling the yeast in other places.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Bottled it today and it smelled and tasted amazing. Really great mix of tartness, malt flavor, and fruity flavor. After racking I was really tempted to drink what was left in the fermenter.
During fermentation it had all kinds of smells including bubblegum and banana, so I had no idea what sorry of flavors to expect. Now I'm really looking forward to the final carbonated product!
pH 3.28 ... 5.2% ABV ... 67% apparent attenuation

 

[Morrey]

Bottled it today and it smelled and tasted amazing. Really great mix of tartness, malt flavor, and fruity flavor. After racking I was really tempted to drink what was left in the fermenter.
During fermentation it had all kinds of smells including bubblegum and banana, so I had no idea what sorry of flavors to expect. Now I'm really looking forward to the final carbonated product!
pH 3.28 ... 5.2% ABV ... 67% apparent attenuation

You have created a winner! Please post back when you carb it up and sample. Good thing about this beer its perfectly fine to drink young.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It carbed up quick enough that I had a couple bottles already.

It tastes a lot different than when I bottled, much less grainy. I went ahead and called it Silly Rabbit Sour since it tasted like trix cereal the day it was bottled (that taste is gone now).
It is pretty nice. Great mellow sourness with a complex flavor difficult to describe; perhaps it is like aged tropical fruit. It has a lot more depth than any other kettle sour I've had. I might attribute this to the greater variety of bacteria I used.
Even my wife likes it and she doesn't normally like sour beers.

Overall I think it's a great success. Looking forward to making more! I'd recommend those probiotic pills to anyone looking for something a bit more complex out of a kettle sour.

Again, thanks for the help guys!

 

[stickyfinger]

Anyone have some info on what yeasts might not work to ferment the wort after kettle souring? Do most work? I was thinking of trying WLP095, WY1318, WLP002 or WY3711 to ferment after souring. I've heard WLP002 and WY3711 will do fine. Anyone try the others?

 

[terrenum]

It carbed up quick enough that I had a couple bottles already.

It tastes a lot different than when I bottled, much less grainy. I went ahead and called it Silly Rabbit Sour since it tasted like trix cereal the day it was bottled (that taste is gone now).
It is pretty nice. Great mellow sourness with a complex flavor difficult to describe; perhaps it is like aged tropical fruit. It has a lot more depth than any other kettle sour I've had. I might attribute this to the greater variety of bacteria I used.
Even my wife likes it and she doesn't normally like sour beers.

Overall I think it's a great success. Looking forward to making more! I'd recommend those probiotic pills to anyone looking for something a bit more complex out of a kettle sour.

Again, thanks for the help guys!

What are these pills?

 

[stickyfinger]

Anyone have some info on what yeasts might not work to ferment the wort after kettle souring? Do most work? I was thinking of trying WLP095, WY1318, WLP002 or WY3711 to ferment after souring. I've heard WLP002 and WY3711 will do fine. Anyone try the others?

Have a saved harvest of OYL-057 Hothead. I think I might try it in one of these sour mixed fermentation ales after emailing Omega and reading this post:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=483130525181227&id=166193676874915

 

[RPh_Guy]

What are these pills?

Here's the link: http://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-f...te-flora-extra-care-probiotic-30-billion.html

It's a blend of:
B. lactis
B. breve
B. longum
L. acidophilus (prefers 99F)
L. casei
L. plantarum (aggressive and ferments at room temp down to pH 3.2)
L. paracasei (room temp fermentation)
L. salivarius
L. rhamnosus
L. bulgaricus

Without further research I couldn't really say exactly which species probably contributed to the souring.
Regardless, it worked really quickly souring at room temperature (about 73F) and created really great sourness -- complex, smooth, and lightly fruity. Similar to what I might expect from a flanders but this was very smooth.

I found it in a local drug store. Try to find a fresh bottle and keep it refrigerated.

Have a saved harvest of OYL-057 Hothead. I think I might try it in one of these sour mixed fermentation ales

Nice! Thanks for sharing!
This isn't a kettle sour method though, so there is some risk of contaminating cold-side equipment for those of us that don't yet have a separate set for sours.

Cheers!

 

[Morrey]

Anyone have some info on what yeasts might not work to ferment the wort after kettle souring? Do most work? I was thinking of trying WLP095, WY1318, WLP002 or WY3711 to ferment after souring. I've heard WLP002 and WY3711 will do fine. Anyone try the others?

Yes, I have yet to find a yeast to fail from low ph issues. I played with liquid yeasts and honestly, with all that souring going on, the esters got lost. I started using US-05, it chews right thru the sugars and finishes right where you want it.

 

[stickyfinger]

Here's the link: http://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-f...te-flora-extra-care-probiotic-30-billion.html

It's a blend of:
B. lactis
B. breve
B. longum
L. acidophilus (prefers 99F)
L. casei
L. plantarum (aggressive and ferments at room temp down to pH 3.2)
L. paracasei (room temp fermentation)
L. salivarius
L. rhamnosus
L. bulgaricus

Without further research I couldn't really say exactly which species probably contributed to the souring.
Regardless, it worked really quickly souring at room temperature (about 73F) and created really great sourness -- complex, smooth, and lightly fruity. Similar to what I might expect from a flanders but this was very smooth.

I found it in a local drug store. Try to find a fresh bottle and keep it refrigerated.


Nice! Thanks for sharing!
This isn't a kettle sour method though, so there is some risk of contaminating cold-side equipment for those of us that don't yet have a separate set for sours.

Cheers!

I figured I would try to get the lactobacillus into my final beer so I can take advantage of the probiotic effect. I guess I should buy a separate racking cane and use a separate keg for the sours.

 

[stickyfinger]

Yes, I have yet to find a yeast to fail from low ph issues. I played with liquid yeasts and honestly, with all that souring going on, the esters got lost. I started using US-05, it chews right thru the sugars and finishes right where you want it.

Even really flavorful ale yeasts like saison?

 

[Morrey]

Even really flavorful ale yeasts like saison?

I have made a number of Gose sours so I keep the accent on the sour. I keep IBU's low and the esters in check. Of course all that matters in the end is what you want to make with your beer and yeast. In that regard, I don't think the low ph will cause you many problems. I used to get nervous until fermentation began, but soon gained confidence all would work out with most if not all yeast strains.

 

[stickyfinger]

I have made a number of Gose sours so I keep the accent on the sour. I keep IBU's low and the esters in check. Of course all that matters in the end is what you want to make with your beer and yeast. In that regard, I don't think the low ph will cause you many problems. I used to get nervous until fermentation began, but soon gained confidence all would work out with most if not all yeast strains.

sorry, i meant, not even a very flavorful saison yeast will come through in a sour ale? good to know that many yeasts will ferment out a soured wort though.

 

[terrenum]

thanks for the info. the pills seems like a complete lactobacillus blend!
I have a Caldwell culture for fresh vegetable that I used to ferment peppers for hot sauce. the ingredients are organic maltodextrin, lb plantarum, ln mesenteroides and pc acidilacyici...
I was thinking of using it on a starter @ 1.020 keep it with a airlock so it doesn't get too much oxygen. I guess it should do the trcik. what do you all think?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have a Caldwell culture for fresh vegetable that I used to ferment peppers for hot sauce. the ingredients are organic maltodextrin, L. plantarum, L. mesenteroides and P. acidilactici...
I was thinking of using it on a starter @ 1.020 keep it with a airlock so it doesn't get too much oxygen. I guess it should do the trick. what do you all think?

Those bacteria should be good for souring at room temp. I did see something about the mesenteroides possibly forming a gel, so watch out for that.

I highly recommend this guide: http://sourbeerblog.com/lactobacillus-2-0-advanced-techniques-for-fast-souring-beer/
It gives pitching rates and help for creating a starter for lactic acid-producing bacteria.

In my case I just opened and pitched my probiotic capsules directly into my (1 gal) wort, which worked perfectly fine.

 

[terrenum]

Quick question for lactobacillus experts!
I made a starter following standard proven process aka 1.040 wort, 10%apple juice, CaCo3, yeast nutrient and used lactobacillus strain from probiotic I have at home that I know are very good.

my question is: after 30 hours at approx 85F, the PH is at 4.3; is it because of the chalk buffer or if it should really go down to 3.2?

I have added a bit more apple juice and 3 other pills of lactobacillus this morning. THe wort smells good and no signs of infection so far so even if the PH is not too low it seems to not be contaminated. any hints? Am I on the right track to achieve a sour starter?
thanks

 

[stickyfinger]

Quick question for lactobacillus experts!
I made a starter following standard proven process aka 1.040 wort, 10%apple juice, CaCo3, yeast nutrient and used lactobacillus strain from probiotic I have at home that I know are very good.

my question is: after 30 hours at approx 85F, the PH is at 4.3; is it because of the chalk buffer or if it should really go down to 3.2?

I have added a bit more apple juice and 3 other pills of lactobacillus this morning. THe wort smells good and no signs of infection so far so even if the PH is not too low it seems to not be contaminated. any hints? Am I on the right track to achieve a sour starter?
thanks

I'm not LAB expert, but I am a chemist. The reason you add the CaCO3 is to create a buffer. The acidity is neutralized by the CaCO3 so that the pH of the solution does not drop too low (at which point the LAB will slow down or stop I think.) So, I think you are fine.

I am growing up my first LAB starter with the same method. I've had OYL-605 at 95F for almost 3 days now. It is very cloudy and is generating a tiny bit of CO2. It smells interesting. I should measure the pH to see if I am getting good buffering. I used 11 g of CaCO3 for a 2L starter.

Good luck with your sour!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Stickyfinger is correct...
Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) produce lactic acid. This acid inhibits bacterial growth, so it helps the LAB -- which are acid tolerant -- compete against other bacteria in the environment. However once too much acid accumulates (pH drops) the LAB growth will be inhibited as well.
We don't want the LAB inhibiting their own growth in a starter, so we add a base, which acts as a buffer, absorbing the acid to prevent the pH from dropping. A high pH allows them to continue to increase cell count.

In our less-buffered wort, the bacteria will stop growth/metabolism once the pH drops to a level that they can't tolerate, generally around 3-3.4 depending on the species.

Cheers

P.S. 11g CaCO3 seems a bit low for 2L. Sources I see suggest 20g per liter.

 

[stickyfinger]

Stickyfinger is correct...
Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) produce lactic acid. This acid inhibits bacterial growth, so it helps the LAB -- which are acid tolerant -- compete against other bacteria in the environment. However once too much acid accumulates (pH drops) the LAB growth will be inhibited as well.
We don't want the LAB inhibiting their own growth in a starter, so we add a base, which acts as a buffer, absorbing the acid to prevent the pH from dropping. A high pH allows them to continue to increase cell count.

In our less-buffered wort, the bacteria will stop growth/metabolism once the pH drops to a level that they can't tolerate, generally around 3-3.4 depending on the species.

Cheers

P.S. 11g CaCO3 seems a bit low for 2L. Sources I see suggest 20g per liter.

Yes, I had intended to use the recipe from Milk The Funk for LAB propagation, but I realized I only had 11g of CaCO3 for 2L of starter and went with it. I measured my pH after close to 3 days, and it was 3.75, so I think I definitely need more CaCO3 next time. I have a feeling that I will be OK on my beer though. We'll see

 

[terrenum]

thanks guys for the info. I read somewhere the reason for a buffer and adding CaCO3 but I didn't remember. It totally make sense. I am affraid I have added too much however. I added about 40g for 1.5 (I started with 2 but some evaporated during the boil). If too much CaCO3 is added could this be an issue for the LAB to multiply? Also, would it actually go down to 3.2 even with the buffer?

 

[stickyfinger]

thanks guys for the info. I read somewhere the reason for a buffer and adding CaCO3 but I didn't remember. It totally make sense. I am affraid I have added too much however. I added about 40g for 1.5 (I started with 2 but some evaporated during the boil). If too much CaCO3 is added could this be an issue for the LAB to multiply? Also, would it actually go down to 3.2 even with the buffer?

The CaCO3 can be in excess. Just don't pitch any of the solid CaCO3 powder from the bottom of the flask into your beer. It could possibly buffer your beer, which could reduce the pH drop in your actual beer.

 

[terrenum]

Just a quick update on my starter. Thought it could be interesting to share since I used Probiotic. So after 4 days, the PH was down to 3.8. Not exactly where I wanted but not bad considering that I had a good buffer with the CaCO3.
Today I made another starter because I am brewing 15Gallons (60L) batch so I know I would need a fairly big starter of Lactobacillus. Brought it up to 1 Gallon of starter today. Blended the 2 together, added a bit of Lactic Acide to bring the PH down to 5.0 and added few more pills of probiotics. We'll see how it goes!
Cheers
s

 

[RPh_Guy]

In case anyone is interested I just used this bacteria blend to sour again. I had stored it in my refrigerator since March.
This time I let it go 4-5 days and kept it a little warmer by putting my kettle over a heating vent in my house. pH reading at that time was 3.08.
Still a very nice sour and light fruity/grain flavor. White wheat, 2-row, Vienna, Czech Saaz, and US-05. Attenuation was fairly low unfortunately (59%).

 

[bigdawg86]

I started my kettle souring process last night for the Margarita Gose... did you all get a pellicle in your kettles? This is only my second sour (first all grain). The first used OYL-605, no pellicle. This time LBS had only WLP977 and have a very nice pellicle on top of wort. Currently holding at 94°.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I started my kettle souring process last night for the Margarita Gose... did you all get a pellicle in your kettles? This is only my second sour (first all grain). The first used OYL-605, no pellicle. This time LBS had only WLP977 and have a very nice pellicle on top of wort. Currently holding at 94°.

I get just a minimal film with that probiotic. It's all good as long as it sours