Kegging help and tips

[Jamie02173]

Ive put up a previous post about my kegging disaster! Im about 3 months into home brewing and i have learnt the hard way with some mistakes and problems. Basically the beer has flowed through my gas line into my regulator possibly due to too little headspace, carbonating at a higher temperature, and the beer slighlty freezing due to a temp control issue. Now my regulator seems to burst out gas from the shut off valves when i turn it on so im thinking its faulty! My main questions are advice on making a safe gas system and avoiding this happening again. Im thinking a 4 way gas manifold 3 for my corny and one im thinking of attaching to a pressure bottle filler i was thinking of attaching to the side of the kegerator. Also im thinking of check valves, any advice on these and advice in general! Much apreciated! Last pic is my current gas system.

 

[Jim R]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want your CO2 tank in the freezer (prior pics) and the regulator separate on a remote hose? I had a 5 lb tank leak once from a connection and have since done everything I could to minimize connections. My regulator is attached directly to the tank and outside of the freezer.

How many kegs to you want the gas connected to? I didn't want to drill a hole through the new refrigerator I a currently using so I don't currently even leave the gas line connected to my keg all of the time. When I transfer to the keg and cold crash I clip on the grey gas post for a few seconds, apply my desired pressure (usually 12 psi) and repeat this daily for the first few days as it is carbonating and then only after I drink a few beers. I haven't even bothered to drill a hole in my new refrigerator yet since this just takes a few seconds although some day I probably will.

 

[brewdude88]

Most manifolds I've seen have check valves installed with the on/off valve, so no need to waste money on Separate check valves.

 

[jddevinn]

The manifold you have pictures does have check valves integral to the quarter turn ball valves.

I haven't seen the remote mount primary regulator before (or I just haven't been paying attention.) I wouldn't place the tank in the freezer unless you need to. I did not drill a hole, but a single line (expecially now that I switched to EVA barrior line) is small enough that the lid seals around it.

If I was building a new system I would go with all EVA line with flare fittings and quick disconnects.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/co2distrib4mfl.htmhttps://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/co2hosekit_eva_bl_ffl.htmhttps://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/evabarriertubing4mm55.htm

 

[Mtrhdltd]

I have those check valve ball locks and love them. They are great when using a t fitting for splitting gas lines.

 

[Jamie02173]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want your CO2 tank in the freezer (prior pics) and the regulator separate on a remote hose? I had a 5 lb tank leak once from a connection and have since done everything I could to minimize connections. My regulator is attached directly to the tank and outside of the freezer.

How many kegs to you want the gas connected to? I didn't want to drill a hole through the new refrigerator I a currently using so I don't currently even leave the gas line connected to my keg all of the time. When I transfer to the keg and cold crash I clip on the grey gas post for a few seconds, apply my desired pressure (usually 12 psi) and repeat this daily for the first few days as it is carbonating and then only after I drink a few beers. I haven't even bothered to drill a hole in my new refrigerator yet since this just takes a few seconds although some day I probably will.

My initial plan was to pack everything

Just out of curiosity, why do you want your CO2 tank in the freezer (prior pics) and the regulator separate on a remote hose? I had a 5 lb tank leak once from a connection and have since done everything I could to minimize connections. My regulator is attached directly to the tank and outside of the freezer.

How many kegs to you want the gas connected to? I didn't want to drill a hole through the new refrigerator I a currently using so I don't currently even leave the gas line connected to my keg all of the time. When I transfer to the keg and cold crash I clip on the grey gas post for a few seconds, apply my desired pressure (usually 12 psi) and repeat this daily for the first few days as it is carbonating and then only after I drink a few beers. I haven't even bothered to drill a hole in my new refrigerator yet since this just takes a few seconds although some day I probably will.

Just out of curiosity, why do you want your CO2 tank in the freezer (prior pics) and the regulator separate on a remote hose? I had a 5 lb tank leak once from a connection and have since done everything I could to minimize connections. My regulator is attached directly to the tank and outside of the freezer.

How many kegs to you want the gas connected to? I didn't want to drill a hole through the new refrigerator I a currently using so I don't currently even leave the gas line connected to my keg all of the time. When I transfer to the keg and cold crash I clip on the grey gas post for a few seconds, apply my desired pressure (usually 12 psi) and repeat this daily for the first few days as it is carbonating and then only after I drink a few beers. I haven't even bothered to drill a hole in my new refrigerator yet since this just takes a few seconds although some day I probably will.

My initial plan was to hide everything in the keyser if it fits, also im waiting to build a wooden collar so i can feed out any lines or taps.. this was also a temporary fix so i could keep the freezer closed and at the right temp. My regulator is acting up it should be enough to try your carbonation method. As im knew so not sure i assumed that gas had to be hooked up continously for up to a week to fully carbonate.. does this gradual daily added pressure work for you reguarly and do you just hook up the gas when serving? I purchased a 4 outlet gas manifold of which i have 3 corny kegs. The 4th outlet i was going ti equip a seperate gas connection that i can easily connect to a pressure bottle filler when i want to empty a keg to bottles so i can add my fresh batch of beer.

 

[Jamie02173]

Most manifolds I've seen have check valves installed with the on/off valve, so no need to waste money on Separate check valves.

I was assuming i would need a type of check valve to connect to my keg posts to ensure the flow is only one way and eliminate the possibility of beer passing through the gas line and ruining another regulator. Will the check valve on the manifold serve the same purpose?

 

[Jamie02173]

The manifold you have pictures does have check valves integral to the quarter turn ball valves.

I haven't seen the remote mount primary regulator before (or I just haven't been paying attention.) I wouldn't place the tank in the freezer unless you need to. I did not drill a hole, but a single line (expecially now that I switched to EVA barrior line) is small enough that the lid seals around it.

If I was building a new system I would go with all EVA line with flare fittings and quick disconnects.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/co2distrib4mfl.htmhttps://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/co2hosekit_eva_bl_ffl.htmhttps://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/evabarriertubing4mm55.htm

I have been hearing of this EVA gas line and sounds like the way forward so ill source that.. is there a reccomended lenght for the gas lines or does that matter? And can you use Eva for beer lines also?

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

I have been hearing of this EVA gas line and sounds like the way forward so ill source that.. is there a reccomended lenght for the gas lines or does that matter? And can you use Eva for beer lines also?

Gas line length doesn't matter. EVA can and should be used for the beer line as it prevents oxidation muuuch better than regular tubing. I have had good luck with 6 foot lines providing adequate flow resistance to prevent foaming even at 15psi serving pressure.

 

[jddevinn]

Yes you can and 'should' use it for both CO2 and beer. CO2 line length doesn't matter. 6-7' should be good for almost every carbonation level, I have the same length on all (10) taps.

You don't need a check valve directly on the keg. The manifold will prevent backflow into the regulator but it will not prevent backflow up to the manifold.

 

[marc1]

I have been hearing of this EVA gas line and sounds like the way forward so ill source that.. is there a reccomended lenght for the gas lines or does that matter? And can you use Eva for beer lines also?

There are DuoTight check valves for EvaBarrier that you can put close to the keg if you want so that if you do have some backflow your lines don't get all messy.

 

[Jamie02173]

Yes you can and 'should' use it for both CO2 and beer. CO2 line length doesn't matter. 6-7' should be good for almost every carbonation level, I have the same length on all (10) taps.

You don't need a check valve directly on the keg. The manifold will prevent backflow into the regulator but it will not prevent backflow up to the manifold.

Cool i think nailing this is essential before i buy another regulator and hopefully it dont face this problem again.. 6-7' would suit me better then 10' as its more space. Im finding it hard to source this in ireland I have found an overseas source ..https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quality-Double-Wall-EVA-Beer-Gas-Line-Pipe-Home-Brew-Varieties/274356374803?ul_ref=Quality Double Wall EVA Beer / Gas Line Pipe Home Brew Varieties | eBay

 

[Jamie02173]

There are DuoTight check valves for EvaBarrier that you can put close to the keg if you want so that if you do have some backflow your lines don't get all messy.

Ill check them out i keep running into ads with both sizes 5/16 and 3/8 whats is the best recomended size?

 

[Jim R]

Here is my gas system till I decide to drill a hole in my new refrigerator. It works perfect to apply pressure daily during carbonation (takes about 2 seconds) and then maybe 2-3 times per week after I drink a few beers. I don't even need it attached to pour the first few beers. I haven't even bothered to drill the hole yet because I know with this system I don't have to worry about a gas leak and certainly am not putting my regulator at any risk. It wouldn't work well if I was pouring beers multiple times per day but for my use it is almost the path of least resistance.

 

[Jamie02173]

Here is my gas system till I decide to drill a hole in my new refrigerator. It works perfect to apply pressure daily during carbonation (takes about 2 seconds) and then maybe 2-3 times per week after I drink a few beers. I don't even need it attached to pour the first few beers. I haven't even bothered to drill the hole yet because I know with this system I don't have to worry about a gas leak and certainly am not putting my regulator at any risk. It wouldn't work well if I was pouring beers multiple times per day but for my use it is almost the path of least resistance.

That system would work perfect for me and probably much handier with the gas manifold so i can just use the valve to reply gas as i would be concerned the keg post would have a higher risk of being worn or damaged by constantly removing them. From the start i was leaving my beer on gas around 12psi for up to a week so its no wonder i overcarbonated!

 

[Mtrhdltd]

I completely disagree with jim, you want serving psi on the keg all the time. Poppets are the most likely leak spots, so you are potentially creating a leak everytime you disconnect co2. To properly carbonate you need constant gas pressure in the keg headspace. Otherwise you are severely limiting your ability to fully carbonate.
There is one occasion that I don't have c02 on my kegs. When camping I will have a gallon in my 2.5 gallon keg in a cooler. Headspace provides enough pressure to serve the already carbonated beer, and I don't care if it loses carbonation when I'm camping.

 

[jddevinn]

I completely disagree with jim, you want serving psi on the keg all the time. Poppets are the most likely leak spots, so you are potentially creating a leak everytime you disconnect co2. To properly carbonate you need constant gas pressure in the keg headspace. Otherwise you are severely limiting your ability to fully carbonate.

I agree with this. I put my kegs on gas at the pressure/temp combination for the carbonation level I want in my conditioning fridge. I have (4) CO2 lines in the conditioning fridge. Occasionally once a keg is fully carbed I am not 'ready' for it in the bar, it will then sit in the fridge with no gas. Once it goes to the bar (or if I take it somewhere) it will be on appropriate gas pressure for serving.

 

[Jim R]

I completely disagree with jim, you want serving psi on the keg all the time.

After the first week while the beer is absorbing the CO2, every time I put my gas on the keg the reading is exactly 12 psi. It would only go down if there was a leak on my keg which I don't have based on my stable pressure readings. My beer is at a constant 12 psi whether the gas is connected or not and my beer remains at the proper carbonation level. It only drops when I pour a couple beers and then I replace it to 12 psi again.

I realize most people want the gas connected all the time but my very simple and cheap system works perfect for me and there is no chance I will ever have a gas leak. I also don't need to drill a hole in the new refrigerator I bought.

 

[Jamie02173]

I completely disagree with jim, you want serving psi on the keg all the time. Poppets are the most likely leak spots, so you are potentially creating a leak everytime you disconnect co2. To properly carbonate you need constant gas pressure in the keg headspace. Otherwise you are severely limiting your ability to fully carbonate.
There is one occasion that I don't have c02 on my kegs. When camping I will have a gallon in my 2.5 gallon keg in a cooler. Headspace provides enough pressure to serve the already carbonated beer, and I don't care if it loses carbonation when I'm camping.

I was originally led to believe that keeping on the gas is the way forward but i have had issues and possibly from not paying enough attention and busy with work! I have read the temperature charts for psi volume and im still scratching my head around when is the perfect time to know when ure beer is properly carbonated. Obviously you know by tasting but if i was to be a perfectionist is there a better way of knowing? Then i could relieve pressure when carbonated and adjust it each day.

 

[jddevinn]

Using a carbonation chart

1. Go to the row with the temperature that the beer is stored at.
2. Go over to the right to the volume of CO2 that you want the beer carbed at.
3. The column that you are in is the pressure that you want to carb* at.
4. If you serve at the same temperature as you carbonated serve at the same pressure. If you serve at a different temperature look at the chart again and change the serving pressure.

You would typically need to then select a serving line length to balance at the serving pressure. With the EVA tubing I have stopped adjusting line length and just leave at 7ft regardless of serving pressure.

* This it the equilibrium point it will take a week or two to carb. Some people will carb at higher pressure to get it done faster, I don't think this is good practice the quickest beers still need ~2 weeks of conditioning time. If you allow the pressure to drop below this equilibrium (by say not keeping the gas connected while serving beer or disconnecting before fully carbed) the carbonation will go down, opposite if the pressure goes up. Same for temperature.

 

[camonick]

Then i could relieve pressure when carbonated and adjust it each day.

If you use the “set and forget” method, this step is completely unnecessary as long as the rest of your liquid system is balanced. At a known temperature and regulator pressure, over carbonation is basically impossible. I use this method and have never touched my regulator pressure adjustment in I don’t know how many kegs. I feel it’s the most fool proof method out there, you just need a little patience. I also second the use of EVA tubing if you can get it. Use it for gas & liquid.

 

[camonick]

Ill check them out i keep running into ads with both sizes 5/16 and 3/8 whats is the best recomended size?

For dispensing beer with minimal line length (6-8 feet), the 4mm ID X 8mm OD is what you’ll want. Inside diameter and length is irrelevant for the gas side. Use the same for both so you only have to buy 1 size.

 

[marc1]

For dispensing beer with minimal line length (6-8 feet), the 4mm ID X 8mm OD is what you’ll want. Inside diameter and length is irrelevant for the gas side. Use the same for both so you only have to buy 1 size.

Unless you have to put the line over a barb. The 5mm ID works better for that.

 

[bracconiere]

is there a better way of knowing?

weight? and i disagree with this: or agree, not sure but

I agree with this. I put my kegs on gas at the pressure/temp combination for the carbonation level I want in my conditioning fridge.

if your poppets fail, which does happen and you have a keg on gas but not enough taps to keep them all hooked up, you're going to get a fridge/freezer full of beer and an empty keg!

 

[brewdude88]

I was assuming i would need a type of check valve to connect to my keg posts to ensure the flow is only one way and eliminate the possibility of beer passing through the gas line and ruining another regulator. Will the check valve on the manifold serve the same purpose?

The check valves on the manifold will prevent beer getting to your regulator. They seal as soon as pressure in the line to the keg overcomes pressure from the regulator. I've accidentally plugged my serving gas line onto a keg that was filled to the gills and 40 PSI. The gas to the manifold was set at 10 PSI and beer made it just barely into the gas line at the post before the check valve closed.

 

[grampamark]

delted accidental post

 

[jddevinn]

if your poppets fail, which does happen and you have a keg on gas but not enough taps to keep them all hooked up, you're going to get a fridge/freezer full of beer and an empty keg!

What would be the failure mode of a poppet on a pressurized keg? I've occasional seen them not seat correctly when they are first installed but I do not see how an installed post/poppet could fail.

I have a conditioning fridge. No taps at all (other than a sampling tap) for kegs that are getting carbed, conditioning, or just waiting for an empty tap. I have never seen or considered a keg that is just sitting in a fridge "failing" because it doesn't have a beer out line connected.

 

[McKnuckle]

Not saying it's a common or particularly worrisome risk, but...

I have had kegs with leaky poppets (on either side), and when a QD is connected, it depresses, opens, and essentially "fixes" the leaky poppet. The poppet only leaks when it's closed.

If you don't know there's a leak, it will either quietly vent the CO2 or the beer, depending on the pressure inside the keg. Granted, a liquid leak is usually more obvious and can be addressed promptly, but I have had it not be so (mess).

 

[Mtrhdltd]

Thank you @McKnuckle for expanding. Virtually all of my detected leaks have been from leaking poppets. The more you move them the more wear they get and the higher the chance of leaks. Also springs can break at any time, causing a failed poppet. May not happen frequently but it is very frustrating when it happens. Just trying to share my experiences.

 

[McKnuckle]

Yup. Kegs... love 'em, hate 'em. The whole ball/pin lock design is something in need of a technology overhaul in the 21st century. I use them as fermenters as well as for serving, so I have had most of the common mishaps occur on my watch. And some dumb operator-error ones, too.

 

[bracconiere]

What would be the failure mode of a poppet on a pressurized keg? I've occasional seen them not seat correctly when they are first installed but I do not see how an installed post/poppet could fail.

I have a conditioning fridge. No taps at all (other than a sampling tap) for kegs that are getting carbed, conditioning, or just waiting for an empty tap. I have never seen or considered a keg that is just sitting in a fridge "failing" because it doesn't have a beer out line connected.

lol, over my 16 years of brewing, i assure you i've had more than a few crisper drawers full of beer. at least the last one i had i didn't lose all my co2 too because i noticed my scale going down. but i did lose the keg of beer

 

[jddevinn]

I guess I'm just lucky. I've lost beer and CO2 to leaks between the keg posts and the quick disconnects (from bad o-rings, changing orings every year and no more leaks), from not tightening the post all the way (user error) and around barbs.

I do normally spray a keg with StarSan after disconnecting it to see any leaks. I do not know how a sealed pressurized keg sitting in place can develop a poppet leak.


... I've also removed poppets from the post and QD due to clogging from hops at an event... and then at the end of the day disconnected and ended up with a face full of beer.

 

[bwible]

The whole ball/pin lock design is something in need of a technology overhaul in the 21st century.

Well, they have and its not for the better for us. Soda companies don’t use these kegs anymore. You see the machines they have now in McDonalds, Burger King and other places. They’ve switched to bag in a box systems. This means they don’t have to deal with kegs anymore and the cleaning/maint, etc. Great for them, as it reduces their labor and overhead. But the kegs we are all using have been phased out and they are going to be increasingly more difficult and expensive to buy. Some companies are making new ones if you want to pay $135 for a new 5 gallon keg. The days of cheap used soda kegs are coming to an end if not over already.

 

[jddevinn]

And professional breweries use Sanke kegs. If I was starting out fresh, and knew what I know now, I would be using Sanke as well.

 

[Jamie02173]

Well, they have and its not for the better for us. Soda companies don’t use these kegs anymore. You see the machines they have now in McDonalds, Burger King and other places. They’ve switched to bag in a box systems. This means they don’t have to deal with kegs anymore and the cleaning/maint, etc. Great for them, as it reduces their labor and overhead. But the kegs we are all using have been phased out and they are going to be increasingly more difficult and expensive to buy. Some companies are making new ones if you want to pay $135 for a new 5 gallon keg. The days of cheap used soda kegs are coming to an end if not over already.

I agree they are hard to source for cheap. Im based in Ireland and i found a place that sold me 3 refurbished corny kegs for €65 each ($79) and thats a lot lower then anywere eose offered.

 

[Jamie02173]

Thanks for all the info guys im 8nly at this a few months and i have learned a lot from all this advice. I was unable to source EVA tubing but i may stick to MLHB stores recomendation for beer and gas lines to tie me over. I spoke to a guy in the store and he says if i fill my van with all my stuff i can bring it down and pay him 40 for an hour and he will help me hook up my system and i will obviously pay for lines and fittings! But this seems like it will be the best 40 quid i ever spent! Will send pics of my completed keyser.

 

[jddevinn]

I purchased my first two corny kegs as refurbished then decided that it was more important to me to have kegs that were all the same. Same shape so I don't have to worry about fitting in my keezer. Same diptubes/posts/lids/poppet/ect. so parts are interchangeable and predictable. I also decided I hated the single handle kegs (harder to balance to clean, different pickup, not as easy to move around.)

Ended up with about 20 of these
https://www.homebrewing.org/AIH-New-5-Gallon-Corny-Keg-Ball-Lock_p_5100.html
New 1/6 Sanke are about the same price and what I would do now
https://conical-fermenter.com/1-6-BBL-single-keg-for-sale.html

 

[Jamie02173]

I purchased my first two corny kegs as refurbished then decided that it was more important to me to have kegs that were all the same. Same shape so I don't have to worry about fitting in my keezer. Same diptubes/posts/lids/poppet/ect. so parts are interchangeable and predictable. I also decided I hated the single handle kegs (harder to balance to clean, different pickup, not as easy to move around.)

Ended up with about 20 of these
https://www.homebrewing.org/AIH-New-5-Gallon-Corny-Keg-Ball-Lock_p_5100.html
New 1/6 Sanke are about the same price and what I would do now
https://conical-fermenter.com/1-6-BBL-single-keg-for-sale.html

I have noticed one of the 3 kegs is a different size in height but they fit perfectly into my chest freezer with more space that i might use for conditioning extra bottles. I noticed when i filled my last keg there was suds slipping out of the lid. I stuck the lid back on but same result. Im hoping this is just because i have not hooked up the co2 yet to add pressure as i havnt had the problem since.

 

[jddevinn]

The used keg lids are notorious for leaking at no/very low pressure. Make sure that you use keg lube on that O-ring to help

 

[Jamie02173]

The used keg lids are notorious for leaking at no/very low pressure. Make sure that you use keg lube on that O-ring to help

I was worried maybe they were bad quality but seems ok now its all under pressure. There is so much i through a blind eye, when i began a few months ago but im finding you cannot ignore anything as it will come back to haunt you! Im pretty sure my keg posts will need changing soon, MLHB store doesnt even know what sizes are on the kegs! Do i measure from the top or do i unscrew and measure the fitting? Also should i lubricate the o rings on my keg posts?