Keg help - carbonation

[stever1000]

I have left my keg on 12psi at 42F for over 3 weeks and it is hardly carbonated in the glass. There are lots of bubbles when pouring, but the actual glass hardly has any carb to it and almost tastes flat when drinking, the small amount of carbonation seems to escape when it is poured.
There is CO2 in the tank, and there are no leaks.

Why hasn't it fully carbed yet?

 

[kombat]

12 psi @ 42° F is only 2.39 volumes of CO2, which isn't a whole lot anyway, but I suspect your pouring technique is releasing an excessive amount of CO2. There shouldn't be a whole lot of foam as you're pouring the beer. Are you using a beer tap like a Perlick, or a simple plastic picnic tap? How long are your lines? Make sure you tilt the glass at the start, and immediately fully open the tap, don't try to "feather" it, that'll just create more foam. Pull the tap fully open, pour on an angle down the inside edge of the glass, then fully shut the tap when the glass is nearly full.

 

[Amadeo38]

I'm fairly new to kegs also, but from what I understand, you're supposed to leave it at 30-35 psi for a few days. Then, purge from the keg and change your regulator setting to 10-14psi for serving.

Anyone know if this early high pressure gets more co2 dissolved into liquid?

 

[jddevinn]

I'm fairly new to kegs also, but from what I understand, you're supposed to leave it at 30-35 psi for a few days. Then, purge from the keg and change your regulator setting to 10-14psi for serving.

Anyone know if this early high pressure gets more co2 dissolved into liquid?

This is a shortcut method. Carbonation should be based on the volumes for the style. Volumes of dissolved CO2 is dependent on temperature and pressure but does not happen instantly required time is dependent on surface area contact.

Setting high pressure, "Burst" carbing, is setting to a higher CO2 volume than required to speed up the CO2 absorption and trying to time lowering the pressure to get the correct volume level faster, but not overshoot.

It sounds like OP either

1. is expecting a larger CO2 volume than set for
2. has restriction or turbulence in the line causing CO2 to come out of solution before it gets to the glass.
3. filled the keg enough that there is very little contact area between the beer and gas, so little that it has still not come into equilibrium. If you pick up the keg and shake it hard do you feel/hear gas being pushed into the keg? If so it has not yet met an equilibrium, filling the keg above the weld line can have this effect.

 

[jmcquesten]

12 psi @ 42° F is only 2.39 volumes of CO2, which isn't a whole lot anyway, but I suspect your pouring technique is releasing an excessive amount of CO2. There shouldn't be a whole lot of foam as you're pouring the beer. Are you using a beer tap like a Perlick, or a simple plastic picnic tap? How long are your lines? Make sure you tilt the glass at the start, and immediately fully open the tap, don't try to "feather" it, that'll just create more foam. Pull the tap fully open, pour on an angle down the inside edge of the glass, then fully shut the tap when the glass is nearly full.

This is the line length issue again. I'll guess the lines are 5 ft. If your lines are shorter than 12 feet (each), that is the problem. Use http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/ to get the exact lengths/temperature/pressure required.

Trust whatever the calculator tells you, even if it sounds ridiculous (16 ft) and it will work.

Your beer is carbonated in the keg, it's just losing the carbonation when it hits the glass too fast. The longer line will slow down the flow and not knock the dissolved gas out of the beer.

The quick burst carb method does work if done right, but with short lines it doesn't matter what method is used to carbonate, it will still seem flat with a bunch of foam on top.

Let us know when you fix it with longer lines.

 

[stever1000]

My lines are about 10' long.
the line is coiled on top of the keg then goes through the top of my mini fridge to my tap tower. I used the calculator and at 12psi it recommends around 10' of line so I am good for length.

The line isn't pinched or kinked so there isn't any restrictions from the exit of the keg to the tap tower. I always fully open the tap at the beginning.

Originally Posted by kombat View Post
12 psi @ 42° F is only 2.39 volumes of CO2, which isn't a whole lot anyway, but I suspect your pouring technique is releasing an excessive amount of CO2. There shouldn't be a whole lot of foam as you're pouring the beer. Are you using a beer tap like a Perlick, or a simple plastic picnic tap? How long are your lines? Make sure you tilt the glass at the start, and immediately fully open the tap, don't try to "feather" it, that'll just create more foam. Pull the tap fully open, pour on an angle down the inside edge of the glass, then fully shut the tap when the glass is nearly full.

I guess maybe I was expecting more carbonation and I should have it colder or higher pressure...

 

[jddevinn]

My lines are about 10' long.
the line is coiled on top of the keg then goes through the top of my mini fridge to my tap tower. I used the calculator and at 12psi it recommends around 10' of line so I am good for length.

The line isn't pinched or kinked so there isn't any restrictions from the exit of the keg to the tap tower. I always fully open the tap at the beginning.



I guess maybe I was expecting more carbonation and I should have it colder or higher pressure...

2-2.5 is what I keep MOST of my beers at.......

 

[stever1000]

2-2.5 is what I keep MOST of my beers at.......

That makes me wonder if something else is wrong with my system then. If you are happy drinking beer in the same range my beer should be at...then something is wrong with mine.

Perhaps I filled it above the weld line like someone mentioned above? How much would this effect carbonation time?

 

[jddevinn]

That makes me wonder if something else is wrong with my system then. If you are happy drinking beer in the same range my beer should be at...then something is wrong with mine.

Perhaps I filled it above the weld line like someone mentioned above? How much would this effect carbonation time?

Carb time is dependent on surface area...if there is very little area it may take a long time to carb.

If you purge the keg then connect the gas in line and hear gas bubbling through the beer then you are filled above the dip tube.

 

[doug293cz]

My lines are about 10' long.
the line is coiled on top of the keg then goes through the top of my mini fridge to my tap tower. I used the calculator and at 12psi it recommends around 10' of line so I am good for length.

The line isn't pinched or kinked so there isn't any restrictions from the exit of the keg to the tap tower. I always fully open the tap at the beginning.



I guess maybe I was expecting more carbonation and I should have it colder or higher pressure...

How are you cooling the beer lines in the tower? If they are significantly warmer than the keg temp, CO2 will come out of solution on the way to the tap.

Brew on

 

[stever1000]

How are you cooling the beer lines in the tower? If they are significantly warmer than the keg temp, CO2 will come out of solution on the way to the tap.

Brew on

I used the copper tube method with some insulation

 

[doug293cz]

I used the copper tube method with some insulation

Seems you have that covered, so the problem is likely elsewhere.

Brew on

 

[andy6026]

Carbonation doesn't just come all shooting out of beer at once, even if it is meeting with above average turbulence. If the beer is flat underneath the foam (and you can get foam very easily on under-carbed beer) then the first think I would do is check for leaks. Use a spray bottle with soapy water to spray around the fittings and gaskets on you keg and see if you see bubbles.

3 weeks at 12 psi ought to have carbed that beer nicely.

Next I'd make sure you tank isn't empty (a leak could mean that all 5 or 10 lbs of C02 is sitting in the bottom of your kegerator), followed by checking to see if your regulator isn't wonky. I've not heard of wonky regulators giving misreadings before, but I'd guess that it's possible.

 

[doug293cz]

Carbonation doesn't just come all shooting out of beer at once, even if it is meeting with above average turbulence. If the beer is flat underneath the foam (and you can get foam very easily on under-carbed beer) then the first think I would do is check for leaks. Use a spray bottle with soapy water to spray around the fittings and gaskets on you keg and see if you see bubbles.

3 weeks at 12 psi ought to have carbed that beer nicely.

Next I'd make sure you tank isn't empty (a leak could mean that all 5 or 10 lbs of C02 is sitting in the bottom of your kegerator), followed by checking to see if your regulator isn't wonky. I've not heard of wonky regulators giving misreadings before, but I'd guess that it's possible.

When you have foaming during dispense, a lot of CO2 does come out of the beer in a matter of seconds (that's what makes the foam.) And yes, you can lose enough during dispense for the beer to seem flat. A correctly dispensed beer (without excessive foam) will hold carbonation for much longer.

If there is pressure in the keg, then the beer will carbonate, even if there is a leak. The problem with a leak is it bleeds off all of your CO2 in a relatively short period of time, at which point you no longer have any pressure. So, if you have pressure, lack of carbonation is not due to a leak.

There is one leak point that can cause foamy pours, and that is a bad O-ring on the liquid dip tube in the keg. A leak here will allow CO2 from the keg headspace to escape into the beer line, which will cause foaming. When this happens you can usually see bubbles in the beer line right where it connects to the QD.

A wonky regulator will cause wonky readings on the low pressure gauge. It is possible for the gauge to fail, but that doesn't mean the regulator is bad. If you close the tank valve and vent the keg, the LP gauge should quickly drop to 0. If you then reopen the tank valve, the reading on the LP gauge should recover as CO2 flows into the keg. If both of thees happen as expected, then the gauge is probably OK. It is possible to have a good pressure reading on the LP gauge, but little/no pressure in the keg if the shut off valve between the regulator and the keg is closed.

Brew on

 

[jmcquesten]

Did you say what size (diameter) beer line you're running?

 

[stever1000]

Did you say what size (diameter) beer line you're running?

3/16" ID tubing

When you have foaming during dispense, a lot of CO2 does come out of the beer in a matter of seconds (that's what makes the foam.) And yes, you can lose enough during dispense for the beer to seem flat. A correctly dispensed beer (without excessive foam) will hold carbonation for much longer.

If there is pressure in the keg, then the beer will carbonate, even if there is a leak. The problem with a leak is it bleeds off all of your CO2 in a relatively short period of time, at which point you no longer have any pressure. So, if you have pressure, lack of carbonation is not due to a leak.

There is one leak point that can cause foamy pours, and that is a bad O-ring on the liquid dip tube in the keg. A leak here will allow CO2 from the keg headspace to escape into the beer line, which will cause foaming. When this happens you can usually see bubbles in the beer line right where it connects to the QD.

A wonky regulator will cause wonky readings on the low pressure gauge. It is possible for the gauge to fail, but that doesn't mean the regulator is bad. If you close the tank valve and vent the keg, the LP gauge should quickly drop to 0. If you then reopen the tank valve, the reading on the LP gauge should recover as CO2 flows into the keg. If both of thees happen as expected, then the gauge is probably OK. It is possible to have a good pressure reading on the LP gauge, but little/no pressure in the keg if the shut off valve between the regulator and the keg is closed.

The regulator is brand new so I know that's fine. I will replace all my o-rings as I am not sure how old they are and it's a cheap fix...I think I do remember seeing bubbles immediately after the liquid disconnect in the beer line...though I don't remember if it was everytime or just once
Thanks for the help

 

[stever1000]

Still have a problem, 1 month at 15 psi and the beer still tastes and looks flat 1 minute after the pour
i have two kegs connected at once with a two way manifold. If the regulator says 15 psi is each line only getting half ? I cannot figure out this problem, no leaks the co2 just doesn't seem to dissolve
help anyone? QBefore I quit kegging

 

[doug293cz]

Still have a problem, 1 month at 15 psi and the beer still tastes and looks flat 1 minute after the pour
i have two kegs connected at once with a two way manifold. If the regulator says 15 psi is each line only getting half ? I cannot figure out this problem, no leaks the co2 just doesn't seem to dissolve
help anyone? QBefore I quit kegging

No, both outlets of the manifold get the full pressure.

Brew on

 

[jddevinn]

Can you post a picture of the setup and the beer after the pour? Might give us a couple more ideas.

Both kegs do the same thing? What if you connect a picnic tap line, same thing?

 

[stever1000]

Can you post a picture of the setup and the beer after the pour? Might give us a couple more ideas.

Both kegs do the same thing? What if you connect a picnic tap line, same thing?

I will snap some pics soon. I didn't think to try the picnic tap idea, I will do that first

 

[stlblues5010]

I'm having a very similar problem. I have had beers that didn't carb well but this beer has no carbonation. Some bubbles come out when pouring then nothing, not even swirling the beer in the glass releases bubbles. Other beers on tap seem to be fine.
Very interested in what becomes of this.

 

[stever1000]

Heres some photos of the general set up

The lines go through the copper pipe up to the tap tower. I spray foamed the tower around the copper pipes to keep things cold as possible. I keep the liquid lines disconnected until I am ready to serve to ensure that nothing leaks from the taps. The CO2 main line goes through the drip hole in the fridge and out to my 20# tank.

Any thoughts or comments would be great. I sprayed starsan on all the connections and no bubbles appeared so I assume there are no leaks. .

 

[JimEb]

Dispensing too fast maybe? Try throttling down the flow from the tap. That's why people are asking about your tubing length. I use a bunch of those acetal helical mixing rods (intended for mixing 2-part epoxies that dispense from a tube/syringe) in my keg's dip tube. I can vary the number of them that I put in there to adjust the restriction/flow rate.

Either way I notice, for whatever reason, a glass of my kegged beer will go flat faster than one poured from a bottle. Seems a bottle carb beer will still have bubbles streaming up the side of the glass long after the draft beer goes flat. Maybe because I drink up the kegged beer too quickly...before it has a chance to be completely saturated with CO2.

 

[stever1000]

Dispensing too fast maybe? Try throttling down the flow from the tap. That's why people are asking about your tubing length. I use a bunch of those acetal helical mixing rods (intended for mixing 2-part epoxies that dispense from a tube/syringe) in my keg's dip tube. I can vary the number of them that I put in there to adjust the restriction/flow rate.

Either way I notice, for whatever reason, a glass of my kegged beer will go flat faster than one poured from a bottle. Seems a bottle carb beer will still have bubbles streaming up the side of the glass long after the draft beer goes flat. Maybe because I drink up the kegged beer too quickly...before it has a chance to be completely saturated with CO2.

Do you have a photo of how this works?

My tubes are about 10-12' long each and are coiled on top of the kegs before they run up through the copper pipe to the taps.

I agree, my bottled beer bubbles forever compared to kegged beer...

 

[stever1000]

I sprayed starsan on all my connections and there appears to be no leaks.
too many kegs that have been undercarbed so far... so confusing

 

[jddevinn]

OK, some long shots here....

Have you tried the picnic tap?

How is the inside of the beer quick disconnects? Do you take them apart to clean them? Maybe something stuck inside?!?

Do you happen to have a spare gauge and some fittings to put a pressure gauge on the keg itself? Are you somehow getting massive (couple psi) pressure drop from regulator to the keg? Can you verify that the regulator gauge is accurate?

What type of beer lines do you have?

 

[stever1000]

OK, some long shots here....

Have you tried the picnic tap?

How is the inside of the beer quick disconnects? Do you take them apart to clean them? Maybe something stuck inside?!?

Do you happen to have a spare gauge and some fittings to put a pressure gauge on the keg itself? Are you somehow getting massive (couple psi) pressure drop from regulator to the keg? Can you verify that the regulator gauge is accurate?

What type of beer lines do you have?

Picnic tap did the same thing, flat beer with hardly any bubbles

I haven't taken apart the plastic disconnects, I didn't know this was possible. however, one of the two are new and both act the same, so I don't think this is a problem

I don't have a spare gauge unfortunately, I will look into this

The regulator is brand new, so it can't be the problem

I have 3/16" ID food grade tubing for the beer lines

All good comments. The beer has been sitting at 20psi for a while now, and still hardly any bubbles after the initial foam settles

 

[jddevinn]

Picnic tap did the same thing, flat beer with hardly any bubbles

I haven't taken apart the plastic disconnects, I didn't know this was possible. however, one of the two are new and both act the same, so I don't think this is a problem

I don't have a spare gauge unfortunately, I will look into this

The regulator is brand new, so it can't be the problem

I have 3/16" ID food grade tubing for the beer lines

All good comments. The beer has been sitting at 20psi for a while now, and still hardly any bubbles after the initial foam settles

hmmm, The disconnects unscrew on the top. They like to develop air leaks around the screw seal area (they also get dirty AF and need to be disassembled, cleaned and sanitized.)

Over years of DIY and designing engineered systems for work I've found that I NEVER trust that something is working correctly just because it is new. Most items fail because they are old, mistreated..... or were plain defective from the factory. Unless we are missing something in your system I would almost bet that you have faulty equipment.

Where are you located? I'm sure that someone in the forum is around you and could help troubleshoot by bringing over duplicate parts..

 

[stever1000]

Awesome, I didn't notice they unscrew like that. I will disassemble all 4 disconnects and clean them up. Hopefully this helps!