Just pressed cider and added Campden - green color?

[Con-Rad]

Hey all, new guy here.

I just pressed about 13 gallons of cider yesterday. 10 went into 5 gal carboys with campden (KMS) to be fermented with different yeasts (EC-1118 and cote de blanc), and the remaining three i left untreated to ferment naturally.

the untreated cider is brown in color like normal cider. the 10 gallons treated with the tablets though are greenish! they all smell normal. is this ok? the untreated cider is also separating/settling more, sediment on the bottom and two or three "layers" of progressively cloudier cider, but the treated cider has sediment on the bottom and the rest looks the same.

i'm letting the 10 gallons sit for another 12 hours or so for the campden to off gas, and then i'll mix in some sugar and pitch the yeast along with some yeast nutrient.

thanks!

conrad

ps, added for your viewing pleasure is a photo of my great-grandfathers restored press and 1HP waste king garbage disposal grinder.

 

[gregbathurst]

How much KMS did you add?

 

[LeBreton]

How much KMS did you add?

Seconded, and at what stage?

Apple juice is naturally green, but oxidizes to brown very quickly. I suppose enough KMS added to the fruit or immediately after pressing could explain this phenomenon.

 

[Con-Rad]

i used one tab per gallon just like most instructions say. i added it immediately after pressing. doesn't sound like it's a problem then? hope not... sugar and yeast are getting thrown in shortly!

thanks

conrad

 

[gregbathurst]

The tablets should be safe, the main risk is underdosing if the tablets are old.

 

[Con-Rad]

thanks! glad to hear that the green is just an oxidation thing. from what i've heard 24 hours is enough time to let the KMS dissipate?

conrad

 

[Con-Rad]

pitched the yeast last night, the EC-1118 is already bubbling like mad but the cote de blanc is still. the naturally fermenting carboy is still, but has yeasty looking stuff floating on top. i think i'll give it a shake to give it some O2.

but, i wish i didn't use campden! the KMS treated stuff looks like crap! the natural cider has already settled and clarified and there's a good 1" of sediment on the bottom. the green stuff is, well, green like a stagnant pond, and has not clarified at all. is there any way to fix this, either now or later? even if it's just cosmetic i don't know how many people will drink green cider.

thanks!

conrad

 

[gregbathurst]

It will be fine after fermentation has finished. Fermentation "binds" the KMS to acetaldehyde so it won't affect the color any more.

 

[Con-Rad]

interesting. so have others had the same experience with the green color? i haven't read about it anywhere.

thanks

connor

 

[Chris_Run]

According to Proloux and Nichols, page 60, this is caused by copper contamination. They claim there is no cure to this disorder... Bummer

 

[Con-Rad]

copper contamination from what? all the carboys were cleaned equally, all the apples were pressed the same day. were the campden tabs contaminated?
conrad

 

[Chris_Run]

copper contamination from what? all the carboys were cleaned equally, all the apples were pressed the same day. were the campden tabs contaminated?
conrad

Could be from the soil with copper bio-accumulation in the fruit... The sulfite or hydrogen sulfide formed from the metabisulfite in the camden tab when exposed to aqueous solution, could have been oxidized to sulfate via the acidic conditions, if iodine was present or dissolved oxygen in the cider. If copper ion was present, and sulfate indeed was present, a blue/green solution would result. Copper acetate could also show a blue/green color and could form in a cider if any acetic acid was present. Just a theory... Is there an odor to the cider? Was iodine used? Has this happened before from apples from the same location? Can you inspect the area where the trees were grown for signs of copper presence, such as copper pipes? What is your location (you could search for soil composition data for your area)? Phew, so many questions... In the end if we can figure it out maybe if can be avoided in the future. Still a bummer...

 

[Con-Rad]

well, i'll start by saying that the carboy that is fermenting is not green anymore. i attached a photo... left to right: natural fermentation with nothing added except yeast nutrient, cider with campden and fermenting EC-1118, cider with campden and Cote de blanc, not fermenting yet.

so if it's not green anymore, maybe not copper...?

at any rate... no iodine was put in the cider. the carboys were all cleaned with a mild bleach solution, rinsed, and then treated with starsan.

there is a wonderful fruity champagne smell from the fermenting 5 gal carboy, and a mild cider smell from the green one. the natural cider doesn't smell much at all.

this is the first time i've made cider, so i can't say that it's happened before! the orchard is in south central massachusetts, and my girlfriend bought the apples there so i didn't see anything close up.

it clearly has something to do with the campden reacting to the cider... maybe SMS wouldn't cause the reaction while the KMS does? though from your chemistry explanation it has more to do with the metabisulfate rather than the carrier element.

conrad

 

[gregbathurst]

I suspect that somewhere your juice is coming in contact with reactive metal- mild steel, copper or aluminium. I think metal oxides are the only thing that will make cider look like that, have you checked inside that disposal unit to see if it is all SS?

 

[Con-Rad]

the info for the waste king 8000 grinder states that everything is stainless steel.

however, my 1920's era fruit press is oak, cast iron, and wrought iron. the oak is treated with a beeswax/mineral oil mixture.

perhaps the cast iron base reacted with the acidic cider?

conrad

 

[gregbathurst]

I guess the iron has reacted with the kms, hopefully the yeast will make some of it precipitate out. You need to coat all cast iron with paint or varnish because apple juice is quite acidic, some iron will dissolve. If air gets at your cider it will turn black so be careful. I don't think it is a health hazard but it can make the cider taste rusty if there is enough.

 

[Con-Rad]

what should i coat it with? when i was restoring the press i looked high and low for food-safe paint and found nothing. i'd like to enamel it but i don't know what that would cost...

conrad

 

[crazyirishman34]

How about powder coating it? I would imagine it would not cost more then $100 for the parts that contact the fruit

 

[gregbathurst]

Well it depends how fussy you want to be. I use oil-based polyurethane varnish, I figure it is meant for kitchen benches and the like so it must be ok. With your press there won't be much friction so the paint shouldn't be flaking off.

 

[Con-Rad]

I was thinking about using Rustoleum countertop paint, but the customer service from rustoleum said that it wasn't tested for food contact! i would imagine it would be OK but i also figured plain iron would be ok... i'd rather have cast iron leeching into my cider rather than paint chemicals though. i'll have to see if there's anyone in CT that can sandblast and enamel my pressing plate.

i'm also going to do an experiment. tomorrow i'll buy a jug of store bought cider and add some campden to see what happens. should help narrow down a little bit what the problem is.

conrad

 

[Con-Rad]

an interesting thing happened in the past day or two.

the carboy with the all-natural cider in it (no sugar, no yeast, no campden, just a little yeast nutrient) started taking off and is bubbling readily. i have noted earlier on that this carboy was just barely bubbling, and that the cider was a nice amber color, rather clear, with most of the sediment on the bottom.

now, as it is fermenting vigorously, the cider has turned totally cloudy and green! i'm very curious to see what happens to it after it ferments out.

conrad