Just need some opinions...water for stout

[Pugs13]

Hey guys I put together this water profile using Bru'n Water's Black Balanced Desired Water Profile. This is for a Dry Irish Stout using 100% dilluted RO water calcs. Just need some opinions on the final numbers. Thanks

Calcium - 80
Magnesium - 8
Sodium - 12
Sulfate - 53
Chloride - 46
Bicarbonate - 169

Hardness - 234
Alkalinity - 140
RA - 78
SO4/CL Ratio - 1.15
pH - 5.5

 

[ajdelange]

For Dry Irish Stout as typified by Lewis's (Ashton) recipe in Lewis's (Michael) book in the AHA series that is too much alkalinity. I brew that recipe with tap water with alkalinity of about 80 and come up with a mash pH which is a little high (5.5 or so). I don't think you need to add acid here if you back off on that alkalinity. I'd guess 50 would be just about right based on my experience.

 

[Pugs13]

For Dry Irish Stout as typified by Lewis's (Ashton) recipe in Lewis's (Micahel) book in the AHA series that is too much alkalinity. I brew that recipe with tap water with alkalinity of about 80 and come up with a mash pH which is a little high (5.5 or so). I don't think you need to add acid here if you back off on that alkalinity. I'd guess 50 would be just about right based on my experience.

Thanks. Would you say 5.5pH is pretty standard for a darker/malty beer? Also, I have searched around to try and gain some knowledge on the sulfate to chloride ratio but have not really come up with anything showing the way that it is displayed in Bru'n Water. If it is 1.1 is that balanced? If it is 1.65 what is that? What if it's 2.45 or something to that nature? I understand the effects of each mineral and what they do...I don't understand the way it's portrayed I guess. Thansk again.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, I think 5.4 - 5.5 is the 'sweet spot' for most beers with perhaps ales at the lower end and lagers at the higher and I think you can go outside that range without too much detriment.

I don't place much stock in the sulfate/chloride ratio thing. If I want dry, prominent, harsh bitterness I add sulfate. If I want round, mellow, sweetish beer with good mouthfeel I add chloride. The ratio comes out to be whatever it comes out to be (which is 0 in most beers I brew but that's my personal taste). I know that if I have to brew with water that boasts 200 mg/L sulfate I can't 'fix' it by supplementing the chloride to the 200 mg/L level. I know I have to get rid of the sulfate.

Thus I don't understand the ratio thing either. The chemistry of brewing water and the mash tun are very intricate and brewers often grasp in desperation at things that they think might simplify this aspect of their brewing. Setting RA according to color was one of those and this ratio is another. Of course if I tell you x and y or x and y/x I am giving you the same information so the ratio may be a useful piece of information for you. Just don't use it as a design parameter.

 

[afr0byte]

Thanks. Would you say 5.5pH is pretty standard for a darker/malty beer? Also, I have searched around to try and gain some knowledge on the sulfate to chloride ratio but have not really come up with anything showing the way that it is displayed in Bru'n Water. If it is 1.1 is that balanced? If it is 1.65 what is that? What if it's 2.45 or something to that nature? I understand the effects of each mineral and what they do...I don't understand the way it's portrayed I guess. Thansk again.

I know you didn't ask me. Anyways, I don't know about standard pH for darker beers, but I've seen some people say they prefer a slightly higher pH (e.g. 5.5, compared to 5.4) for darker beers because they feel it mellows the roasty edge a bit. Also, as far as the chloride to sulfate ratios, don't worry about those too much. Certainly don't worry about specific ratios like 1.1 or what not. I go by the general rule of adding only calcium chloride for malty or balanced beer, and a little calcium chloride (25-50 mg/L chloride) and a quite a bit of calcium sulfate (100+ sulfate) for a hoppy beer.

 

[ajdelange]

I know you didn't ask me......

No, he didn't but what makes these boards interesting and valuable is that multiple people post their experiences, procedures, opinions etc.

 

[Pugs13]

I was asking whomever had an explanation, procedure, experience or opinion. I appreciate the help. The problem I am having with this is that I cannot get my pH up to where I want it without having at least 75-80 in my alkalinity. When I fall within the target water for black balanced the pH is not where I want. Does RA really play a role here? The profile I posted above was pretty close to London on the Water Charts that Bru'n Water provides...do they really use that water in London, not sure but...it is what it is I guess...

 

[afr0byte]

I was asking whomever had an explanation, procedure, experience or opinion. I appreciate the help. The problem I am having with this is that I cannot get my pH up to where I want it without having at least 75-80 in my alkalinity. When I fall within the target water for black balanced the pH is not where I want. Does RA really play a role here? The profile I posted above was pretty close to London on the Water Charts that Bru'n Water provides...do they really use that water in London, not sure but...it is what it is I guess...

Well, as AJ stated, he brews his dry stout with 80 alkalinity, so perhaps you want to try that.

 

[afr0byte]

I've gone up to about 95-100 alkalinity for an oatmeal stout I brewed recently, that had a large amount of specialty grains. It turned out with a good background of that coffee flavor AJ often mentions when he talks about his stout.

 

[ajdelange]

The problem I am having with this is that I cannot get my pH up to where I want it without having at least 75-80 in my alkalinity. When I fall within the target water for black balanced the pH is not where I want.

How are you measuring pH? Strips tend to read 0.3 low and I'd guess they are even harder to read with a dark colored mash. The inexpensive meters home brewers use tend to be unstable (but you can beat that with frequent cal checks and, if required re-cals).

Does RA really play a role here?

RA was another one of those straws home brewers have grasped at. RA is very useful for its intended purpose: comparing water supplies but takes a back seat to alkalinity which is the main 'enemy' of the brewer. The reason for this is that the phytin calcium reaction usually produces only a small portion of the acid required to set proper mash pH. The majority either comes from roast or caramel malts (or barley) or is added by the brewer.

The profile I posted above was pretty close to London on the Water Charts that Bru'n Water provides...do they really use that water in London, not sure but...it is what it is I guess...

I'll leave it to Martin to fully explain the philosophy behind the profiles he chose to include but I believe the intent is to give a profile which is physically realizable (many published profiles aren't) and that is reasonably representative of the associated region. This profile seems entirely suited to stouts and porters but should probably have the alkalinity reduced for a dry stout. I don't speak to the other types because I don't brew them.

 

[mabrungard]

The bottom line is that the color-based water profiles include first-guesses for the calcium and bicarbonate content needed to brew a particular class of beers. The actual grist will determine if those levels should be elevated or reduced to produce a desirable mash pH. An alkalinity of 80 might work with some recipes and be insufficient in others. That is what these tools are for, so you don't have to listen to someone's opinion of what worked for their water and their recipe. You will have something that is scientifically- and empirically-based to assess what direction you might need to go. YMMV.

 

[Pugs13]

I have played around a bit with it. Here are some new numbers.
Ca - 58
Mag - 7
Sodium - 15
Sulfate - 54
Chloride - 45
Bicarbonate - 103

Hardness - 173
Alkalinity - 85
RA - 40
Ratio - 1.21
pH - 5.4

 

[Kaiser]

I'd go with the 2nd profile and see what that gets you. Once you brew the beer again you can make adjustments.

Kai

 

[Pugs13]

I guess I am just still trying to understand the Alkalinity and RA for stouts. I have seen some off the chart numbers that seems to work for others but now I am trying to get down to 80-85 Alkalinity while maintaining a pH of 5.4-5.5, which only leaves me with 39 RA?? Is that right? Then you look at other profiles and some of the Bicarbonates are crazy as well is 103 suitable...Sorry just trying to understand...want to have a nice water recipe to use every time I brew this beer.
I will try this second profile above and see what happens. Again, thank you for all your help.

 

[ajdelange]

Ca 58/20 ~ 2.9 mEq/L Ca Hardness
Mg 7/12.15 ~ 0.576 mEq/L Mg Hardness
Effective hardness ~ 2.90 + 0.576/2 = = 3.188
Alkalinity 85 ~ 1.6 mEq/L
RA = 50*( 1.7 -3.188/3.5) = 39.5
4o is close enough for government work.

As I noted in a previous post RA really doesn't have a lot to do with it. If you look at a plot like this one: http://www.wetnewf.org/pdfs/kolbach-ra.html you'll see the RA's of the waters of various cities and the assumption is often made that if I want to brew stout I need to have water with RA smilar to that of Dublin but there are two Dublins on that chart one with an RA of 25 and one with an RA of 130. Which is right? Probably neither. What yoy need is to get the mash pH in the right window. If you use a profile like your most recent one you will probably be in the right window.

I know it is difficult. You have the option of relying on a model (and we all know the situation with respect to models) or peoples' experiences and we all know the potential problems with that. You must really experiment. A test mash is a good idea. I asked earlier how you were measuring mash pH. That is very important. Lots of people use strips, conclude that their mash pH's are too low and dump in alkali (strips seem to have a pretty consistent bias of 0.3 pH to the low side).

As to some of the crazy RA, hardness and alkalinity numbers you see: if they are off the chart (i.e. the one linked to above) consider them 'off the chart'.

 

[Pugs13]

I asked earlier how you were measuring mash pH. That is very important. Lots of people use strips, conclude that their mash pH's are too low and dump in alkali (strips seem to have a pretty consistent bias of 0.3 pH to the low side).

I use a pH probe the checker from HANNA. I do the 7.01 and the 4.01 before every brew session and recalibrate if need be.

As to some of the crazy RA, hardness and alkalinity numbers you see: if they are off the chart (i.e. the one linked to above) consider them 'off the chart'.

That's awesome...haha...love that response. This water stuff has been a struggle but little by little I am getting it.

 

[Pugs13]

Ca 58 ~ 1.04 mEq/L Ca Hardness
Mg 7 ~ 0.58 mEq/L Mg Hardness
Effective hardness ~ 1.04 + 0.29 = 1.43
Alkalinity 80 ~ 1.6 mEq/L
RA = 50*( 1.6 - 1.43/3.5) = 60
How did you get 40?

40 is what it is saying on Bru'n waters RA cell. If I try and change that it falls below that and/or it raises my Alkalinity above 80 closer to 90

 

[ajdelange]

I did make a mistakes (interpreted calcium as hardness and used 80 for the alkalinity. When I fix those things I get 39.5).

 

[mabrungard]

AJ, both of those Dublin profiles are probably correct. Much of the city gets its water from the Wicklow Mountains to the south of the city. That water has relatively low hardness and alkalinity. The north part of the city gets water from a carbonate area. The areas to the west of the city are very much in a carbonate landscape and would be quite subject to high alkalinity.

To everyone else, there is no correct RA that you can assign to stout or porter or pils, etc. Its dependent upon the grist. As AJ points out, you can create a grist that could be brewed quite well with somewhat low alkalinity. Conversely, you could create a grist that requires much more alkalinity. It depends.

 

[Pugs13]

This is what I am working with.
12gal. batch

13lbs - Maris Otter
2lbs. - Flaked Barley
1lbs./12oz. - English Roasted Barley (500 srm)
12oz. - Chocolate Malt (350 srm)

Total Grains: 17.50lbs.
SRM - 34.7
IBU - 36.5
Est. ABV - 4.3%

Maybe that will help a little more...

 

[ajdelange]

You have about half again as much dark stuff in there as the recipe in the monograph so you can expect the pH to be lower - perhaps 5.4 but you should still be OK. That is, of course, given that your black malt/barley aren't unusually acidic. Your pH meter will tell you that. It is always a good idea to do a test mash before brewing a recipe using dark grains for the first time.

 

[Pugs13]

You have about half again as much dark stuff in there as the recipe in the monograph so you can expect the pH to be lower - perhaps 5.4 but you should still be OK. That is, of course, given that your black malt/barley aren't unusually acidic. Your pH meter will tell you that. It is always a good idea to do a test mash before brewing a recipe using dark grains for the first time.

Yea I played around with it a little by taking out some of the roast/black barley out but I start loosing that nice rich black color. Would you suggest just taking out or lowering the chocolate? How much of a difference would scrapping the 12oz. really make? If I lower the roast/black malts but lock in a good water profile and pH is spot on, could that make up for taking out some grain by contributing to color and taste? Or just leave what I got, go with a pH of 5.4 and see what happens?

 

[ajdelange]

It's hard to say because I didn't use materials identical to those you have in hand. Taking out some of the black stuff will obviously raise pH and reduce color but it's hard to predict. In lab experiments I found 10% roast barley gave me mash pH of about 5.55 and 30% 5.19 so shifting around a few percent shouldn't make that much difference. WRT color I have found that 10% roast barley gives me colors that varied from 64 to over 80 for different batches. That's plenty 'black' as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Pugs13]

It's hard to say because I didn't use materials identical to those you have in hand. Taking out some of the black stuff will obviously raise pH and reduce color but it's hard to predict. In lab experiments I found 10% roast barley gave me mash pH of about 5.55 and 30% 5.19 so shifting around a few percent shouldn't make that much difference. WRT color I have found that 10% roast barley gives me colors that varied from 64 to over 80 for different batches. That's plenty 'black' as far as I'm concerned.

Sounds good. I think I may just brew a batch this weekend and see how it goes. I will shoot for pH 5.4. Another thing I wanted mention was that after reading about your thoughts on "chalk" I did not use any of that in the water profile, I used real small amounts of pickling lime, gypsum, ca chl, Epsom.

 

[Hermit]

It's hard to say because I didn't use materials identical to those you have in hand. Taking out some of the black stuff will obviously raise pH and reduce color but it's hard to predict. In lab experiments I found 10% roast barley gave me mash pH of about 5.55 and 30% 5.19 so shifting around a few percent shouldn't make that much difference. WRT color I have found that 10% roast barley gives me colors that varied from 64 to over 80 for different batches. That's plenty 'black' as far as I'm concerned.

I thought there was a visual threshold that is a lot higher than that anyhow. I don't remember it off hand and and my googlefoo is weak today.

 

[Pugs13]

All in all...I am still not understanding if you take for instance Bru'n Water "Black Balanced" and fall within all the "Target Water Adjustments" by using the different salts why that is not considered to be perfect for brewing the style you are wanting to brew using 100% RO water. This is of course done only if you don't care about what the Hardness, Alkalinity, RA, and Ratio turns out to be after you plug the numbers in. I would think that as long as you get within reason of what the targets suggest and your pH is spot on then go for it...but now there is talk about keeping Alkalinity around 50-80...its impossible to get that low and keep your Bicarbonates in check along with pH wanting to be in the 5.5 range. Unless I am completely missing something. Again, if I play around with the numbers this is what I get if I stay within the guidelines of the Target profile. It comes out to be close to the London profile on the charts..and I get 5.5 for pH but on the other hand...Alkalinity is well above 50-80...my head is going to explode...

Ca - 65
Mag - 9
Sodium - 8
Sulfate - 47
Chloride - 35
Bicarbonate - 142

Hardness - 197
Alkalinity - 118
RA - 66
Ratio - 1.35
pH - 5.5
__________________

 

[ajdelange]

I thought there was a visual threshold that is a lot higher than that anyhow. I don't remember it off hand and and my googlefoo is weak today.

There is no such thing as black beer. It always lets a little light through. Black beers, such as stouts, are actually red as you can demonstrate to yourself by shining a flashlight through some. If you have to get down to 1/2" in the bottom of the glass before you see any light coming through then you have a pretty dark beer.

What looks black in a glass depends on several things such as the size of the glass, the nature of the light, whether it is backlight and so on. Generally speaking I guess I'd call anything more deeply colored than 30 SRM or so black.

 

[Hermit]

There is no such thing as black beer. It always lets a little light through. Black beers, such as stouts, are actually red as you can demonstrate to yourself by shining a flashlight through some. If you have to get down to 1/2" in the bottom of the glass before you see any light coming through then you have a pretty dark beer.

What looks black in a glass depends on several things such as the size of the glass, the nature of the light, whether it is backlight and so on. Generally speaking I guess I'd call anything more deeply colored than 30 SRM or so black.

30 is the number my memory had queued up but I didn't want to throw it out there since I couldn't find a reference. Everyone is allowed to have their own criteria but throwing in more black barley just to drive the color lower probably isn't worth the flavor shift at some point.

 

[ajdelange]

I would think that as long as you get within reason of what the targets suggest and your pH is spot on then go for it...but now there is talk about keeping Alkalinity around 50-80...its impossible to get that low and keep your Bicarbonates in check along with pH wanting to be in the 5.5 range. Unless I am completely missing something.

It is entirely possible to hit pH 5.5 with no alkalinity whatsoever. I do it every time I brew lighter beers. It is also quite possible to hit pH 5.5 with alkalinity of 80 in a stout with 10% roast barley. I do it every time I brew stout. I think you are putting too much faith in spreadsheets and calculators. They provide valuable guidance for someone wishing to brew a particular style of beer for the first time but they are based on a model as to how Maris Otter behaves and have assumed characteristics for roast barley built in and etc. If you use a roast barley that has twice the acidity of the roast barley that the model builder used then you will get a very different result than what the spreadsheet tells you. This is why you ask around for hard data. I'm giving you hard data. But if you brew using a roast barley that is half as acidic as the one I use you are going to get a different result from the one I got. So you have to make your best guess and brew. Then you have really good data: your own and you can use that to guide you in the future.

All you have to do to brew a decent Irish stout from RO water is add a tsp of calcium chloride to each 5 gal or if you want some hop punch, half a tsp of calcium chloride and half a tsp. of calcium sulfate. You should, of course, check mash pH and if it comes out at 5.1 add some bicarbonate next time. But it isn't likely to come out at 5.1. But if it come out at 5.4 you can stop obsessing on alkalinity and concentrate on the amounts of calcium chloride and gypsum because it is quite probable that you will find some schedule for those other than half a tsp of each that gives you a beer you like better.

 

[Pugs13]

It is entirely possible to hit pH 5.5 with no alkalinity whatsoever. I do it every time I brew lighter beers. It is also quite possible to hit pH 5.5 with alkalinity of 80 in a stout with 10% roast barley. I do it every time I brew stout. I think you are putting too much faith in spreadsheets and calculators. They provide valuable guidance for someone wishing to brew a particular style of beer for the first time but they are based on a model as to how Maris Otter behaves and have assumed characteristics for roast barley built in and etc. If you use a roast barley that has twice the acidity of the roast barley that the model builder used then you will get a very different result than what the spreadsheet tells you. This is why you ask around for hard data. I'm giving you hard data. But if you brew using a roast barley that is half as acidic as the one I use you are going to get a different result from the one I got. So you have to make your best guess and brew. Then you have really good data: your own and you can use that to guide you in the future.

All you have to do to brew a decent Irish stout from RO water is add a tsp of calcium chloride to each 5 gal or if you want some hop punch, half a tsp of calcium chloride and half a tsp. of calcium sulfate. You should, of course, check mash pH and if it comes out at 5.1 add some bicarbonate next time. But it isn't likely to come out at 5.1. But if it come out at 5.4 you can stop obsessing on alkalinity and concentrate on the amounts of calcium chloride and gypsum because it is quite probable that you will find some schedule for those other than half a tsp of each that gives you a beer you like better.

I tried using that method of just adding a tsp of either and it seemed even with the right pH the beer tasted great out of the fermentor but when carbonated it lacked in taste, it was a bit dull/watered down and maybe even a little minerally. I thought maybe by playing around with pH and different salts it would help aid in this problem. I will try that last water profile with roughly 80 alkalinity and 40 RA and see how that turns out. Thanks again for all the support. I appreciate it more than you know.