Junk Efficiency With Keg Setup - Need Help

[EinGutesBier]

Got the keg out for mashing tomorrow. It took about 2 3/4 gal to reach the copper plates. I'm doing a 5 1/2 gal Bock tomorrow. I'm figuring 13 1/2 lbs of grain to get around a 1.070 gravity at the end of the boil. 6 gal of water for the mash (3 1/4 actually mixed in the grain) and 5 1/2 gal for the sparge. I threaded the easymasher in the keg fitting also. This will syphon most of the wort out of the kettle and the screen around the easymasher should help the runnings to get clear much faster than just using a dip tube. I'll let you know the results this weekend.

I hate to be the odd man out, but what's an easymasher? I did a quick search for it and it didn't give me an idea of what it is. This might be a good solution to consider.

 

[Warrior]

I hate to be the odd man out, but what's an easymasher? I did a quick search for it and it didn't give me an idea of what it is. This might be a good solution to consider.

Go to my post #22 I have the website connection listed.

 

[EinGutesBier]

Go to my post #22 I have the website connection listed.

Hey, that's some cool stuff. I don't suppose there's a DIY for this? I essentially have half of that build into my keg. :cross: Though they never specify if the mesh on those are SS or not. In the case of making it myself, would I be able to get the right material for the screen from any hardware stores?

Also, to check my understanding...the grain simply sits on top of the easymasher screen?

EDIT: I see they did specify that it was SS. Would it be possible to find/use a copper mesh if SS screening couldn't be found? I'm going to guess that using the type of screening used on windows would be a bad idea.

 

[jdoiv]

I you have a false bottom now, you don't really need the ss braid on the end of the easy masher. You really want a pickup tube that is solid all the way to the bottom of the convex. This will siphon all of the wort out of the mash tun. Your efficiency will go way up.

One thing to note when using this kind of pickup tube is that you should fill the MLT up with water then run some out of the ball valve before adding your grains. This will get any air out of the line and keep you from having a stuck sparge.

 

[EinGutesBier]

I you have a false bottom now, you don't really need the ss braid on the end of the easy masher. You really want a pickup tube that is solid all the way to the bottom of the convex. This will siphon all of the wort out of the mash tun. Your efficiency will go way up.

One thing to note when using this kind of pickup tube is that you should fill the MLT up with water then run some out of the ball valve before adding your grains. This will get any air out of the line and keep you from having a stuck sparge.

Good to know, jdoiv. Would there be a diagram or DIY for the pickup tube? I would want to make sure I do it correctly. Would it be okay to make the tube with a brass elbow or something? I guess I figured that the problem with my efficiency wasn't leaving the 3 gallons of wort in the deadspace, but the fact that that deadspace prevented maximum contact of the strike water with my grains.

 

[jdoiv]

Well, have you measured the amount of water under the false bottom? You may get some dilution of the enzymes which would slow down the conversion if it is alot. You could always recirculate to move the liquid through the mash to help speed conversion up, but it shouldn't hurt efficiency if you are getting full conversion during your mash.

If it were me, I would fill the bottom of the mash tun with water up to the bottom of the false bottom, then add in my measured amount of strike water on top of that. I would shoot for a low 1 or 1.2qt/lb ratio and then recirculate to get good conversion. Test with a iodine test at 60 minutes. If not full converted, test every 15 minutes after until you reach full conversion. Then sparge until you hit your volume. If you know the amount of liquid under the false bottom, you can subtract that amount from you sparge water if you are batch sparging.

I have about a half a gallon of liquid under my false bottom and I don't count it as part of my strike water. It's not enough to dilute the enzymes, but it would if it were a lot more.

 

[EinGutesBier]

I make a practice of doing the iodine test to see if conversion is complete. If the iodine is an orangish yellow color when in contact with the wort, that means the conversion is complete, right? If so, I've always converted. I can even get plenty of wort. The problem is that my overall gravity is low by about .010 (this was on a beer with a projected OG of 1.092 and I hit 1.081 or so). When I scooped all of the spent grain from my MLT, I did find wort up to the dead space left over, though I kept that for starters. If I use a dip tube, will that help improve efficiency?

I'm trying to figure out if my bad efficiency is due to lack of contact of water to grain or if that strike water immersing the grain is diluted because of my 3 gallon deadspace. If it's a matter of retrieving all of the wort in the deadspace and boiling it down, then that's an easier thing to do.

 

[jdoiv]

Well getting all the liquid out is going to help your efficiency, so pickup tube will certainly help matters. If there is 3 gallons of wort at the bottom, I'm guessing it has a fairly high sugar content. Did you take a reading of this wort?

Also, when you measure your strike water, are you counting this 3 gallons that is beow the mash tun? If so, you are getting a very stiff mash and this will hurt efficiency as much of the sugar will stay in the grain husk and not be viscous enough to come out easily.

As far as big beers go, you will take a hit of efficiency with them unless you do an extended sparge and boil to get all the sugar out. Most people just toss some extra grain in and don't worry about it since they don't want to boil 30 gallons down to get 10 gallons of wort.

What was the efficiency on this big beer? What is it like on a session beer (~1.054)?

 

[jdoiv]

Also, are you batch sparging or fly sparging? You would take a pretty big hit leaving that much under there if you were fly sparging. It probably wouldn't be as bad if your batch sparging, but still significant.

 

[EinGutesBier]

I do 6 gallon batches and make sure to include the 3 gallon deadspace amount to my total strike water. I prefer to do a flysparge, but now that you mention it, I don't know if I took a reading on that extra 3 gallons, so that may have been the issue. Given what you know, would you recommend I set up a manifold or a mesh screen? Or simply try to get my false bottom to set as close to the deadspace as possible? I'm sure that could be done, along with setting up a diptube to get that extra wort.

Which leads me to ask if I can use copper for my diptube and simply use some materials from my local hardware store?

 

[jdoiv]

I wouldn't change to a manifold. If you are fly sparging, a false bottom is the best thing. Don't add the 3 gallons below the FB into your strike water calculations. Instead subtract it from your sparge volume. Put a dip tube in, sparge away and your efficiency should take a huge leap.

Yes, just a piece of copper tubing will work.

Here are a couple of pics of mine.

 

[BBboomer]

I use a converted keg for mashing with a Sabco false bottom. It is hinged in the middle and the dip tube goes through that to nearly the bottom of the keg. The drain valve is about 4 inches above the bottom of the keg. It leaves about a quart of liquid in the bottom when drained completely.
I also re-circulate my mash with LOW flame under the MT to maintain and adjust mash temps. I use my sparge hookup to re-circulate through.
I regularly get 80% or higher and very clear wort.

 

[Warrior]

I wouldn't change to a manifold. If you are fly sparging, a false bottom is the best thing. Don't add the 3 gallons below the FB into your strike water calculations. Instead subtract it from your sparge volume. Put a dip tube in, sparge away and your efficiency should take a huge leap.

Yes, just a piece of copper tubing will work.

Here are a couple of pics of mine.

I agree as I just brewed that bock last night and missed my O.G. because a 5.5 gal batch is not linear when you scale down form doing an 11 gal. I did not lose near as much water to the mash because the grain bed was much smaller than what I usually have in a 11 gal batch. Plus there was not an extra 2 3/4 gal of water (which scaled up would've been 5 1/2) under the FB when brewing the 11 gal batch. I'll adjust the gravity tonight using DME to get it up to an O.G. of 1.070

I used
6 gal for the mash
5.5 gal for sparging
This gave me about 7 gals at 1.053 O.G. from 13 1/2 lbs malt which is 1.0275 pts/lb/gal

That wasn't the best extraction rate as I have had in an 11 gal 1.051 boh pils I did that was 1.031 pts/lb/gal

Next time
I'll add more to the mash because I used about 1 qt per lb in this batch.
6 3/4 gal for the mash
3 1/4 gal for the sparge

I'll recirculate at least 2 3/4 gals at the start of the sparge to get the water below the FB to rinse through the grain bed.

This is the 1st 5.5 gal batch I've tried in the keg system. It's definately different than doing 11 gal because of the raised style false bottom.

 

[EinGutesBier]

That's a lot of great info there, Warrior. I'm going to have to rethink my approach.

 

[Warrior]

That's a lot of great info there, Warrior. I'm going to have to rethink my approach.

Have you tried a brew with a false bottom yet?

 

[Lil' Sparky]

I know I'm late on this thread, but you don't want all that dead space below your FB. It's what's killing your efficiency. You need to move it down to the bottom of the keg and build a dip tube to siphon from underneath. You can drill a hole in the FB since it sounds like it doesn't have one right now.

FYI, here's what my FB installed looks like. The dip tube is extremely easy to make from copper tubing and an elbow. This one came with the setup I bought, but I made the ones for my other vessels.