Juicy vs hoppy

[Queequeg]

With the latest fashion in IPA's being NE juicy styles I have come to question how this relates to hoppiness.

My thinking is juicy ipa quality mainly comes from mouthfeel via yeast selection and hop selection. Whilst a hoppy ipa is often all about aroma at all costs.

And here's the clincher, they are to some extent mutally exclusive, but only when your aiming for ultra levels of hoppiness.

Of all the new juicy styles I have had, (not a lot I have to say) none really approach the ultra high aroma levels that some more conventional IPA do. Yes they are hoppy but I have yet to have one that has a k.o aroma.

I can only think this is due to interfering effects from adjuncts and yeast aromas.

Thoughts?

 

[5mooth0perator]

I think the NE styles use a vigorous ferment, which ultimately blows off some of the volatile aromatics.

 

[SanPancho]

hop selection. the biotransformation of hop oils by yeast. yeast varieties have differing levels of glycogen production. sulfates vs chlorides. sodium. flaked grains. post-knockout hop additions.

could be alot of different things. doesnt mean you cant make a full bodied west coast style IPA with bitter bite to it. BTDT.

 

[bobeer]

I also think it has to do with hop selection. Not all hops are "juicy" and carry a big nose to them. West coast ipas i feel are more piny and spicy which i feel carry over the nose better. Also, the yeast. West coast are often clean and crisp and NE styles seems to have more of a yeast funk to help with the hop flavor. They're also not as dry.

Personally NE styles i think aren't as good as the west coast style. NE ipas you almost have to get as fresh as possible otherwise its not really all that great. West coast ipas have a bit longer shelf life and i feel are better balanced.

 

[brewcat]

I hate the whole "juicy" marketing. I want a beer. Not OJ, not mango, not grapefruit.

 

[Horseflesh]

I didn't like IPAs or even pale ales until I stumbled on the "juicy" fad. If this is wrong, I don't want to be right.

 

[Queequeg]

Imo juicy styles are better described as pale ale. In fact I think a low alcohol strength and more malty character suit a juicy profile better.

An ipa to me is all about super aromatics, and think oily mouthfeel with a bitter kick. Otherwise is more just a nice pale.

 

[Morrey]

With the latest fashion in IPA's being NE juicy styles I have come to question how this relates to hoppiness.

My thinking is juicy ipa quality mainly comes from mouthfeel via yeast selection and hop selection. Whilst a hoppy ipa is often all about aroma at all costs.

And here's the clincher, they are to some extent mutally exclusive, but only when your aiming for ultra levels of hoppiness.

Of all the new juicy styles I have had, (not a lot I have to say) none really approach the ultra high aroma levels that some more conventional IPA do. Yes they are hoppy but I have yet to have one that has a k.o aroma.

I can only think this is due to interfering effects from adjuncts and yeast aromas.

Thoughts?

I am the not the biggest IPA connoisseur there is, so I think I'll plead the 5th here....or skin my ignorance and simply ask for someone to describe a NE "Juicy" IPA. What makes the word juicy appropriate in this description, and how does a juicy IPA differ from a more mainstream or non-juicy IPA?

I have seen the term juicy used as of late, and interested in knowing more.

 

[bobeer]

I am the not the biggest IPA connoisseur there is, so I think I'll plead the 5th here....or skin my ignorance and simply ask for someone to describe a NE "Juicy" IPA. What makes the word juicy appropriate in this description, and how does a juicy IPA differ from a more mainstream or non-juicy IPA?

I have seen the term juicy used as of late, and interested in knowing more.

"Juicy" refers to the fruit like qualities that beer has which it gets from the hops. The "NE style" as it has come to be is known as has a juice like aroma, taste, and appearance. They are usually very cloudy and resemble the likeness of fruit juice. (IE: orange juice, grapefruit juice, mango juice, etc..) The aroma of the beer is of freshly squeezed very ripe fruit but lacks the high IBU bitterness of other IPA styles. West coast style IPA's are usually much clearer in appearance and utilize many hop varieties resulting in a wide array of aromas and flavors such as pine, spice, floral, rock candy, citrus, etc... Non NE style IPA's often have a firm bitterness that fits the more traditional IPA style. Other IPA styles often concentrate on the malt/hop balance and how the hop/malt profiles play with each other whereas the NE style IPA's just seem to focus on the hop profile of the beer; hence the "juicy" flavor profile.

I hope that explains it for you!

 

[Morrey]

"Juicy" refers to the fruit like qualities that beer has which it gets from the hops. The "NE style" as it has come to be is known as has a juice like aroma, taste, and appearance. They are usually very cloudy and resemble the likeness of fruit juice. (IE: orange juice, grapefruit juice, mango juice, etc..) The aroma of the beer is of freshly squeezed very ripe fruit but lacks the high IBU bitterness of other IPA styles. West coast style IPA's are usually much clearer in appearance and utilize many hop varieties resulting in a wide array of aromas and flavors such as pine, spice, floral, rock candy, citrus, etc... Non NE style IPA's often have a firm bitterness that fits the more traditional IPA style. Other IPA styles often concentrate on the malt/hop balance and how the hop/malt profiles play with each other whereas the NE style IPA's just seem to focus on the hop profile of the beer; hence the "juicy" flavor profile.

I hope that explains it for you!

Yes, this is a very good description. I read your post twice and it makes good points. My guess is that to get the nose and aroma w/o the bittering component, there are lots of late hop additions including whirlpool hop stands and dry hopping. I may be wrong but that is how I would attempt to work my hops based on your description.

We are both on the east coast which may influence your answer: Can you suggest a commercial NE Juicy IPA that I may find in SC that typifies the style we are discussing? Now that I know what the beer is all about, I'd be interested in trying one.

 

[chickypad]

Of all the new juicy styles I have had, (not a lot I have to say) none really approach the ultra high aroma levels that some more conventional IPA do. Yes they are hoppy but I have yet to have one that has a k.o aroma.

I've had some pretty in your face aromatic NE IPA's. I think bobeer summarized it well though in his 2 posts, the aroma and flavor really is like fresh juice. I agree that the NE style may age even less well then west coast IPA's. I like both a lot, just depends on what mood I'm in.

 

[bobeer]

Yes, this is a very good description. I read your post twice and it makes good points. My guess is that to get the nose and aroma w/o the bittering component, there are lots of late hop additions including whirlpool hop stands and dry hopping. I may be wrong but that is how I would attempt to work my hops based on your description.

We are both on the east coast which may influence your answer: Can you suggest a commercial NE Juicy IPA that I may find in SC that typifies the style we are discussing? Now that I know what the beer is all about, I'd be interested in trying one.

Yes, lots of late hops! Whirlpool additions, and dry hops. You can even dry hop 2 days into fermentation, then again at 5 days in, then again when the beer is finished fermenting. When I make a super hoppy beer I put dry hops in the keg too so the hop flavors and resins last throughout the life of the keg.
You'll have to research what hops have the fruit like characteristics and choose the ones you think sound the best to your taste buds.

Giga Yeast makes a VT IPA yeast strain that seems to be a good substitute for the Conan strain that is supposedly the Heady Topper yeast. It's cloudy and plays well with the hops. Personally, I've tried Vt IPA yeast as well as another locally produced VT style yeast and I've just been sticking with sa05 so I get the high attenuation/dryness and the clean yeast character so the hop flavors really stand out. I feel it's best of both the West coast and NE style IPA worlds.

Water profiles can play a big role in perceived hoppiness too but I don't want to make this reply longer than it already is, haha. Look into good hoppy beer water profiles if you want to play around with this aspect. I've made great beers with just using my unmodified tap water though.

Look into Julius or King Julius from Tree House Brewing or The Substance from Bissell Brothers. There's also Trillium Brewing Company's Artaic... There's several others you can find by doing a google search but those are the one's that have been making the most noise as of late. Good luck finding any of them though as people drive for miles and wait in line for hours just to buy a few cans.
Good thing we can make our own!

 

[Morrey]

Yes, lots of late hops! Whirlpool additions, and dry hops. You can even dry hop 2 days into fermentation, then again at 5 days in, then again when the beer is finished fermenting. When I make a super hoppy beer I put dry hops in the keg too so the hop flavors and resins last throughout the life of the keg.
You'll have to research what hops have the fruit like characteristics and choose the ones you think sound the best to your taste buds.

Giga Yeast makes a VT IPA yeast strain that seems to be a good substitute for the Conan strain that is supposedly the Heady Topper yeast. It's cloudy and plays well with the hops. Personally, I've tried Vt IPA yeast as well as another locally produced VT style yeast and I've just been sticking with sa05 so I get the high attenuation/dryness and the clean yeast character so the hop flavors really stand out. I feel it's best of both the West coast and NE style IPA worlds.

Water profiles can play a big role in perceived hoppiness too but I don't want to make this reply longer than it already is, haha. Look into good hoppy beer water profiles if you want to play around with this aspect. I've made great beers with just using my unmodified tap water though.

Look into Julius or King Julius from Tree House Brewing or The Substance from Bissell Brothers. There's also Trillium Brewing Company's Artaic... There's several others you can find by doing a google search but those are the one's that have been making the most noise as of late. Good luck finding any of them though as people drive for miles and wait in line for hours just to buy a few cans.
Good thing we can make our own!

Very nice!

I certainly agree that playing with SO4/Cl ratios can really influence our perception of a hop. I brew (often) a hoppy wheat beer influenced by my tastes for 3 Floyd's Gumball Head. My recipe uses all Amarillo and a good amount of wheat along with my base 2 row. Even tho this beer only carries 35 IBU's of bitterness, the hop presence is HUGE. Most of the additions come after 15 min left in boil, ie FO, whirlpool and dry hop addition(s).

In this regards, I seem to be fairly close in design process to the described NE Juicy IPA's brewing technique. Good info!!

 

[bobeer]

Very nice!

I certainly agree that playing with SO4/Cl ratios can really influence our perception of a hop. I brew (often) a hoppy wheat beer influenced by my tastes for 3 Floyd's Gumball Head. My recipe uses all Amarillo and a good amount of wheat along with my base 2 row. Even tho this beer only carries 35 IBU's of bitterness, the hop presence is HUGE. Most of the additions come after 15 min left in boil, ie FO, whirlpool and dry hop addition(s).

In this regards, I seem to be fairly close in design process to the described NE Juicy IPA's brewing technique. Good info!!

A bit off topic but, funny enough, I saw a Julius clone thread on the side bar and thought it was relevant to what we were discussing. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=437096&page=99

 

[Morrey]

A bit off topic but, funny enough, I saw a Julius clone thread on the side bar and thought it was relevant to what we were discussing. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=437096&page=99

I saw that too! LOL, I took this as a sign from the brewing powers to be that it was time for me to try my hand at one!!

 

[bolus14]

This thread gets pretty in depth into the NE IPA "process," https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046. By this I mean yeast strains, water profiles, etc that have been successful for people.

Like a few others, I'm not the biggest IPA fan, be it NE or West Coast, or "session." I have taken a little more of a liking to each style in the past year, but I still think balance plays a role. I have never had something like Dogfish Head 90 min or 120 min, nor will I unless someone were to hand it to me. This year I tried Nugget Nectar for the first time and immediately looked for a clone recipe. While Nugget Nectar is 90+ IBU's it certainly doesn't come across as a bitter bomb, it has a strong malt backbone to balance the IBU's, some even say the malt overpowers the hops.

We have a local brewery that has been churning out small batch NE IPA's over the last year or so, roughly 2-3 every month to month and a half. The ones I have tried have been some of the best I have tried. Very smooth, creamy mouthfeel, very little bitterness, and a good hit of fruit/juicy hop flavor and aroma. As others have mentioned, the trick is timing, NE need to be as fresh as possible. Drink it fresh from a can right off the canning line and it's really good. Fast forward a couple week and pop open a can and there's a noticeable difference, depending on the hops used, how much, etc it might still be tasty, but the flavor profile drops very quickly.

So, to answer the OP, to me juicy IMO can apply to NE IPA's or traditional/sesson IPA's. It depends on how the hopping is done, if the brewer adds a ton of late hops and dry hops, assuming fruitier style hops, then there will be a juice like quality. The difference is the mouthfeel and longevity of the hop flavor/aroma. The NE is going to fade quicker and have a creamier mouthfeel, the traditional will be crisper and have a dry to somewhat dry finish, session should be closer to what traditional is. Take all of this with a grain of salt because if you throw a good amount of TCZ, early Simcoe, maybe Warrior, or something else very piney in the mix then IMO a lot of this info goes out the window.

 

[Queequeg]

Do you folks think NE styles are more or less aromatic than west coast. Personally I find things like oats, flaked barley and flaked wheat can mask or interfere with hop aroma.

I also find low ibu ipa to leave my mouth

I also think juicy comes from the yeast as much as the hops.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Do you folks think NE styles are more or less aromatic than west coast. Personally I find things like oats, flaked barley and flaked wheat can mask or interfere with hop aroma.

I also find low ibu ipa to leave my mouth

I also think juicy comes from the yeast as much as the hops.

Any that I've tried have been extremely aromatic...just in a different way from more traditional IPAs if that makes any sense.