Jolly Pumpkin dregs

[soundguy]

I have someone bringing me a few of Jolly Pumpkin beers back from Chicago. I have only tried Jolly Pumpkin on draft once, I don't think they normally distribute where I live. I would really like to brew something with the dregs from some (or all) of these. Since I don't really know much about these beers, I don't really know where to begin.

Are any of these better than others for culturing dregs?
Would some of them make a good combo? OR is there a combo I should avoid?
What style will they pair best with?
Should I forget about pitching some of these right away and age them for a while for my maximum enjoyment?

Basically the plan is to brew up a lambic or saison, or maybe even a flanders style and pitch a few bottles on brew day with an ale yeast. I just don't know which ones to crack in to, or if I should pitch a commercial blend with them.

 

[jnacey]

I've used La Roja with good results. Generally, the fresher and lower alcohol beers are good to harvest from, but that seems to be a rule of thumb that I've never seen backed up with anything other than "common sense".

JP dregs tend to be pretty voracious, even when added to a already fermented beer that is in the aging process. Acidity contributions can be evident within a month.

They're def my favorite dregs to add. Always have been more powerful than Cantillon or Tilquin, imo.

 

[m00ps]

Bam Biere is easily my favorite of all of those and IMO it would eb the best to culture from since its 4-something % abv

 

[solbes]

I used the Bam Noire dregs in mine. Turned out plenty sour and I'm finally beyond the 2 year mark since pitching (8 days past in fact). So I think I will pop some this weekend and see how they taste. At 20 months they were starting to get pretty good.

 

[sweetcell]

for me, Jolly Pumpkin is the "suicide sauce" of dregs: they take over. they have a very distinctive flavor profile, i can immediately ID any sour with JP yeast in it. like jnacey mentioned, they can impose themselves on an already fermented beer - how those bugs do that is a mystery to me.

i've made some great beers with JP dregs, but i'm weary of them now. i find that they make a beer a little one-dimensional (luckily it's a very good dimension!).

regarding combos of the dregs: they're pretty much all the same, no real point in mixing them.

 

[soundguy]

So it probably wouldn't be a good idea to mix these JP dregs with something like Supplication as it will probably overwhelm the RR bugs and just taste like JP?
Also it sounds like I should be fine just pitching an ale yeast and the dregs, without adding commercial sour blend.

 

[jnacey]

So it probably wouldn't be a good idea to mix these JP dregs with something like Supplication as it will probably overwhelm the RR bugs and just taste like JP?
Also it sounds like I should be fine just pitching an ale yeast and the dregs, without adding commercial sour blend.

To this first question, maybe? RRs bugs are pretty strong as well. Just screw it and pitch both. It won't be bad.

To the second, you could probably get away with doing this, but why not just throw in Roselare instread of the ale yeast. It's easier (no starter) and at least you know it'll sour in the worst case scenario.

 

[solbes]

...they can impose themselves on an already fermented beer - how those bugs do that is a mystery to me.

I have evidence of this myself. I had extra fermented and conditioned Barleywine left over (12%) when I made that batch last year. So for the heck of it I added it to a 1G glass jug and transferred in about 6-8 oz of my JP dreg made sour. Formed a pellicle within a couple of weeks and slowly chugged away last summer.

I amazed that it was doing anything in it, though maybe its just the Brett working? I didn't think Lacto or Pedio worked in high alcohol, highly hopped beers. Suppose I should get around to bottling it in a couple of months. It hasn't been opened since last January.

 

[jnacey]

I have evidence of this myself. I had extra fermented and conditioned Barleywine left over (12%) when I made that batch last year. So for the heck of it I added it to a 1G glass jug and transferred in about 6-8 oz of my JP dreg made sour. Formed a pellicle within a couple of weeks and slowly chugged away last summer.

I amazed that it was doing anything in it, though maybe its just the Brett working? I didn't think Lacto or Pedio worked in high alcohol, highly hopped beers. Suppose I should get around to bottling it in a couple of months. It hasn't been opened since last January.

I actually can see this. I imagine your barleywine had a fairly high finishing gravity. That would leave more than enough residual sugars for JP dregs to get to work. The alcohol aspect is a little perplexing, although Cascade and RR make some pretty boozy sours. Some bugs just have a little more dexterity than others.

 

[sweetcell]

I amazed that it was doing anything in it, though maybe its just the Brett working? I didn't think Lacto or Pedio worked in high alcohol, highly hopped beers.

i could be wrong here, but i believe that the no alcohol/no hops thing relates mostly to the commercially available strains (i.e. those we know the most). lacto and pedio exist in nature and are likely much more hardy than the wimpy stuff that we can get in a vial or pouch.

but why not just throw in Roselare instread of the ale yeast. It's easier (no starter) and at least you know it'll sour in the worst case scenario.

the risk of the brew not getting sour with JP dregs is zero. no need for Roe as insurance. however, additional sour cultures/dregs might add a hint of complexity under the strong JP flavors.

 

[MaddBaggins]

I have a bottle of Boudelaire Saison from JP. I've been saving it. I was thinking of drinking it and adding the dregs to a T-58/WLP644 saison I have fermenting now. It's about 5-6 weeks old at this point.

 

[MileHighBrewer]

JP dregs are the bomb. They're absolute demon bugs, extremely fast, sour, and funky. I use them frequently as the only souring source in beers. I usually use the same(ish) yeast to do the bulk of fermentation. They use wlp550, i use 3522. Same source brewery. I have done combos with crooked stave dregs (phenomenal) and cascade dregs (you can hear your teeth sizzling away) and yes, they're dominant. They can play well with others, but work fine alone. One bottle WILL go to work on 5 gal.

 

[soundguy]

It sounds like I have more than enough to make a batch with just Jolly Pumpkin and one or two with a combo of other dregs or blends.

Does anyone know if they contain pedio? I read somewhere online it is just Brett and lacto, and sacc of course.

 

[spenghali]

I think you should be able to get JP in Seattle. If not, there is plenty in Portland if you happen to make it there ever.

 

[TNGabe]

It sounds like I have more than enough to make a batch with just Jolly Pumpkin and one or two with a combo of other dregs or blends.

Does anyone know if they contain pedio? I read somewhere online it is just Brett and lacto, and sacc of course.

I'm not aware of any reliable info on what's in JP. I don't think he's ever pitched anything other than yeast, everything else is built up in the brewery. I've used a lot of JP dregs and have never had a beer with only those develop diacetyl or ropiness, but the acidity has more depth than I've gotten from using cultured lacto.

I don't agree with others that all of those bottles will have same the dregs. Maybe the same microbes, maybe not. Almost certainly not in the same ratios. JP brews different beers differently, uses certain barrels and foudres for certain brews and at specific times of the year and that's part of the different flavor profiles of the beers along with the recipes.

I wouldn't grow the dregs up or use more than one bottle per batch. I feel like JP dregs do best in an already pretty dry beer. Little floccers are hungry and if you give them too much to work with they can go crazy. As others have said, they can make a beer very sour

I think someone said Bam dregs are the best of the lot and I tend to agree with that. Added at bottling or when you dry hop an already very dry saison can be really amazing. I've been meaning to take another shot at a flanders with sacc primary and la roja dregs. I wouldn't used Roseleare. I did a series of about a half dozen reds with WLP665 and ECY02 and felt like the blends gave me more trouble than help. I might use the wyeast lambicus strain with the la roja dregs to get more cherry.

I'm definitely a JP fanboy, but I've had a few beers from them now that I didn't like. Some don't age well and some are just weird to begin with. Not sure which one the chestnut beer on the right of your pic is, but I had one with a year or so on it this fall and it was no buneo. Acid bomb with weird spiciness. So maybe drink that sooner rather than later and don't feel like you have to use the dregs if it's off.

Dang, now I want some Jolly Pumpkin and have none in the cellar!

 

[Weezy]

Iirc, they have an especially voracious strain of lacto. I always brew a 1 gallon batch from dregs when I get a JP bottle, for the fun of it and it doesn't take much time to do in the stove.

 

[Hello]

I would do a sasion and not use both dregs from JP and RR. I have a suspicion that one may be wasted on the other.

 

[jnacey]

the risk of the brew not getting sour with JP dregs is zero. no need for Roe as insurance. however, additional sour cultures/dregs might add a hint of complexity under the strong JP flavors.

i agree with you, i guess my point was that you have to pitch something anyways, so it might as well be Roselare rather than something else. Would you think that a belgian sacc strain + JP dregs would be better than Roselare + JP dregs? I've always just used it in conjunction with a sour blend.

 

[soundguy]

I think you should be able to get JP in Seattle. If not, there is plenty in Portland if you happen to make it there ever.

I have never seen bottles for sale in Seattle, but I don't go shopping for sour beer very often. I have drank a couple glasses at Sour Fest over the past few years though.

 

[signpost]

Imho, the choice of sacch strain can have a big effect on the souring. A high attenuating Belgian strain could produce a lot of esters for the bugs to chew on, but not leave much sugars. A lower attenuating English strain can still produce a good amount of esters AND leave plenty of sugars.

That being said, I don't have a ton of experience to back this up. It is just what makes sense to me.

Also, I can vouch for the JP dregs taking over quickly. I pitched dregs from one bottle of La Roja and it went nuts within a few weeks.

 

[jmich24]

It sounds like I have more than enough to make a batch with just Jolly Pumpkin and one or two with a combo of other dregs or blends.

Does anyone know if they contain pedio? I read somewhere online it is just Brett and lacto, and sacc of course.

Ron told me via email he does not use Pedio due to its production of Diacetyl and its unpredictability.

 

[soundguy]

I will probably make a large batch and split in to two carboys, pitching half with saison yeast and Jolly Pumpkin and half with either saison yeast or ecy20 and dregs of jolly pumpkin, Russian River, The Bruery, and Mikeller. Would it be safe to assume the Jolly Pumpkin only half will be drinkable much sooner than the other half with many more microbes?

 

[sweetcell]

Would it be safe to assume the Jolly Pumpkin only half will be drinkable much sooner than the other half with many more microbes?

probably, since the JP-only dregs doesn't contain pedio (i have yet to see signs of pedio in any dregs i've used...)

i would still give the JP-only batch 6 months, to be safe.

 

[soundguy]

6 months sounds quick. I don't plan on even tasting the other sours I have going until they reach the 6 month mark. I would love to have something close to drinkable in that time frame.

 

[sweetcell]

6 months is indeed quick, and personally i would wait longer. 6 months is my guestimate on the minimum before bottling is safe. the shortest i've ever turned around a JP'ed sour was 9 or 10 months.

 

[TNGabe]

6 months is indeed quick, and personally i would wait longer. 6 months is my guestimate on the minimum before bottling is safe. the shortest i've ever turned around a JP'ed sour was 9 or 10 months.

Beer fermented dry with saison yeast + Bam dregs can be ready to bottle in a month or two. Or a week or two if you just add the dregs at bottling. As always, different strokes and whatnot.

 

[soundguy]

I will probably pitch both and the same time and start tasting around 3 months.
It will most likely end up in a keg. I have 2 ball locks I've acquired and I normally use pin lock. Thinking of dedicating the balls to funky/sour beers.

 

[tagz]

I will probably pitch both and the same time and start tasting around 3 months.
It will most likely end up in a keg. I have 2 ball locks I've acquired and I normally use pin lock. Thinking of dedicating the balls to funky/sour beers.

Insert joke about dedicating balls here.

 

[soundguy]

I will be brewing this tomorrow I think

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2 lbs Munich 20L (Briess) (20.0 SRM) Grain 1 28.6 %
2 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 28.6 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain 3 28.6 %
1 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 4 14.3 %
46.00 g Styrian Golding (Savinja Golding) [2.10 Hop 5 15.0 IBUs

This should get me about 1.050 with around 15IBU. Pitch WY3522 (lowest attenuation belgian I could find) and dregs from at least 2 JP bottles. Probably ferment around a month before racking to secondary to age around 6 more months before bottling/kegging. Does anyone have any suggestions or critiques to this?

 

[sweetcell]

looks solid to me.

only step missing is the final one, "send bottles to sweetcell for evaluation"